Gift of Tongues

[Musicmaster]

Ok you are right… I won’t let his unbelief drag me down.

The unbelief is within those who can't do those things that Jesus stated that will be done by those who believe. Nobody here can do those things, so there must be a whole lot of unbelief here in this crowd. Who among you lay hands on and heal the sick? Who among you can take a venomous bite and not be affected, or drink something harmful, and it not affect you?

Come on, now, speak up? Anyone?

Jesus said it, and nobody here can to those things, so this must be one very unbelieving crowd...

...or is there more to this?

MM

 

[Lynx]

The unbelief is within those who can't do those things that Jesus stated that will be done by those who believe. Nobody here can do those things, so there must be a whole lot of unbelief here in this crowd. Who among you lay hands on and heal the sick? Who among you can take a venomous bite and not be affected, or drink something harmful, and it not affect you?

Come on, now, speak up? Anyone?

Jesus said it, and nobody here can to those things, so this must be one very unbelieving crowd...

...or is there more to this?

MM

I answered this already. Did you ignore it?

 

[GaryDavidMorris]

My post was in response to some suggesting that to pray aloud in some words of sounds that are not understood was a superior way to pray, that God will bless in a special way.
I do not need to please the flesh with my prayers. I do not need to pray or speak in "tongues" for God to hear my prayers or answer my prayers.
I often pray out loud when asked to do so. But I do not always speak clearly because of my deafness so I prefer not to do so.
God does not need a vocal prayer or a prayer in "tongues" or a special "prayer language" hear or to answer.
He already knows what is on our heart and what we need.

Of course anyone with a physical disability that affects their ability to speak would be an exception to the rule. God will honor their Faith in however they are able to express their prayers to Him.

As to speaking in tongues and it's usefulness and benefits; I always remind people to desire what the scriptures say about the subject. One should not feel pressured to accept unscriptural ideas about this topic or things they have witnessed that are unscriptural; However, one should not go too far in the other direction and reject what the scripture says about the topic or think that there is something undesirable about the gift of the Holy Spirit because certainly the gifts of the Holy Spirit are good and to be desired and certainly anything that the scripture explains about speaking in tongue should be interesting to all of us who are intellectually honest in our pursuit of Truth. No one can pressure me to accept something that I do not clearly see to be the correct interpretation of the scripture and no one can persuade me to ignore the many scriptures that discuss this subject. The only way to treat the subject fairly is to carefully exegete each text in its context using rules of Hermeneutics, being careful to not come to the subject with preconceived ideas before we have analyzed all of the texts involved. All of the passages must agree. When any one or more of the passages do not support a preconceived ideas we must abandon that idea for an interpretation to that all of the passages on the subject will support. It seems to me that this willingness to examine each of the many texts on tongues is rare. But every man must be fully persuaded in his own mind.

 

[Scribe]

Mark 16:16-18
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Anyone wo can allegedly speak in tongues should also be able to do all these other things, otherwise they are not speaking in tongues, but only yammering senselessly in spite of their emotions and the "evidence" their emotions present to them. To argue against this is to call Jesus a liar, or those not able to do these things are not in the faith. It cannot be both.

So, who here are complete cessationists, partial cessationists, and who rightly divides the word of truth? If tongues are still with us, then why are the speakers in tongues doing ALL these things?

Did Jesus lay down a limitation in time and events to the functionality of these things in the Church? Nope. Not one word of limitation is mentioned, but some will inevitably point to people like Wigglesworth, Copeland, Branham, et al, as if they are/were all great men who worked all these things. Wait a minute, Jesus said that ALL "those" who believe will be in operation by ALL those who believe. What other interpretation could there be in what He said?

Come on, let's dispense with laying claim to what is easily emulated as allegedly being genuine, and ALSO do all those things that cannot be emulated except by those charlatans who put on healing shows in front of video cameras and audiences that they had previously set up and choreographed.

How about it. I want to see the evidence, and all I have seen and heard thus far is blubbering in an alleged language that is not foreign language at all. No missing limbs restored, hospitals not emptied out, nothing! I'm an Israeli who believes in Paul's Gospel given to him by Christ Jesus, and I want to see ALL these things in operation that are verifiable.

If perfection coming has put an end to most of these things, then why not ALL? Who here is able to rightly divide the word of truth? Anyone? Wo here is going to call Jesus a liar by not doing ALL these things? Do you not have faith? If you are not a man or woman of faith, then you cannot be saved.

"...these signs shall follow them that believe"

Which is it? Either some here don't believe the words of Jesus, or they are not rightly dividing the word of truth, or they are followers of other interpretations that provide the convenience for getting out from under the evidence for their faith, or they just believe whatever fits the narrative of the religious bandwagon they happen to be riding. The conversations always revolve around tongues, but all the other things remain left out from the evidence of faith. Were you saved under the Kingdom Gospel or the Gospel of Grace?

Come on! Where's the proof behind some of the claims being made here? I wanna see and hear it!

MM
MM

Are you asking for medical documented proof that believers have laid hand on sick people and they were healed after this statement was made? I am assuming that you believe the scripture accounts in Acts? So are you asking for proof that it continued happening after that. I assume that you believe the account about Paul being bitten by a venomous snake and shaking it off was true. So are you asking if there are other accounts today? I haven't encountered a snake event yet but then I haven't been on a mission trip that involved being bitten by one. I don't have any reason to believe that Paul had any other snake encounters besides the one. There are lots of accounts of people who asked for prayer by believers and elders in the church and went to the doctor and were told their malignant cancerous biopsied tumor had disappeared before they received cancer treatment. I know of one in a church I attended in New York. The medical document said that they did not know what happened to the tumor but the know that they did not misdiagnose and had proof of the biopsy. This is proof of a miracle of healing after believers laid hands on her and prayed in faith in Jesus Name. There are many such proofs.

 

[DRobinson]

Of course anyone with a physical disability that affects their ability to speak would be an exception to the rule. God will honor their Faith in however they are able to express their prayers to Him.

As to speaking in tongues and it's usefulness and benefits; I always remind people to desire what the scriptures say about the subject. One should not feel pressured to accept unscriptural ideas about this topic or things they have witnessed that are unscriptural; However, one should not go too far in the other direction and reject what the scripture says about the topic or think that there is something undesirable about the gift of the Holy Spirit because certainly the gifts of the Holy Spirit are good and to be desired and certainly anything that the scripture explains about speaking in tongue should be interesting to all of us who are intellectually honest in our pursuit of Truth. No one can pressure me to accept something that I do not clearly see to be the correct interpretation of the scripture and no one can persuade me to ignore the many scriptures that discuss this subject. The only way to treat the subject fairly is to carefully exegete each text in its context using rules of Hermeneutics, being careful to not come to the subject with preconceived ideas before we have analyzed all of the texts involved. All of the passages must agree. When any one or more of the passages do not support a preconceived ideas we must abandon that idea for an interpretation to that all of the passages on the subject will support. It seems to me that this willingness to examine each of the many texts on tongues is rare. But every man must be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I agree and because of this I am convinced that the gift of tongues as taught and practiced today is not what the Scripture teaches.
And to think that the Holy Spirit does not dwell within a person because he does not speak in tongues is not true.
I received the Holy Spirit (was baptized by the Holy Spirit) the moment I was born again when I by faith accepted Jesus as my Savior. And I never spoke in tongues nor was led to do so.
I see no benefit to the lost or the local church in what is practiced today.

 

[Magenta]

Considering that I have yet to find a single prayer recorded in scripture that was not audible, I wholeheartedly agree.

Hannah was praying in her heart, and though her lips were moving, her
voice could not be heard. So Eli thought she was drunk. 1 Samuel 1:13

 

[Publican]

Hannah was praying in her heart, and though her lips were moving, her
voice could not be heard. So Eli thought she was drunk. 1 Samuel 1:13

Hmm.
She began with audible prayer, that prayer is recorded in the verse above. When Eli confronted her, She states that she had been pouring her soul out before Yahweh with great vexation and "speaking".

So yes, and thank you. I have now found one silent prayer in the Bible.
And it is still a mystery. But the petition and the vow that Hannah made were audible and recorded.

Keep in mind sister. I only advocate for audible prayer. I do not insist upon it. There's way to much of that going on around here already.

 

[jacko]

Jesus Christ is unchanging, 2000 years ago, today and tomorrow. Amen.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Dude. Relax.

I know that speaking in other tongues is a thing, but he is determined to not believe it. You're never going to argue him into believing it. Just let him be wrong and get on with it.

It's wasn't just for him. There are readers reading all this too and being well-informed because of it.


🥌

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Mark 16:16-18
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I was hesitant to say anything but, actually I had done all the things on this list except for the snake thing because God hasn't put that situation in my life like He did with Paul.

1. "In my name shall they cast out devils" - There was someone I know who I witnessed was possessed. This was early in my salvation, but God had already proven to me just how powerful He is and how frightened demons are of Him. All I did was pray for her and when I laid my hand on her. She said it feels like burning where I touched, but we both felt the demon leave her and it went away. This is not a gift that I always had. God gave this gift to me only when it was needed. Which makes sense because I don't meet many possessed people very often at all.

2. "they shall speak with new tongues" - I've already posted my testimony about this.

3. "and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them" - I accidentally drank too much of a medicine one time. I started to black out and my breathing became shallow, so I prayed non-stop that I don't get hurt or die from this. And God helped me stay awake and kept me breathing until I felt the medicine was no longer in my body. It didn't go away from vomiting it up or relieving myself in the bathroom. God just removed it.

4. "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" - I've done this too a number of times. It's all God though because all I did is lay hands and pray over them and they got healed because of God.


All the times that these things happened were not "showy" situations. They happened because God prompted me to pray over these people in their situation because that how He wanted to help them. It was more to glorify God in the lives of the affected people, and not to glorify me just because He included me in that help.


🥌

 

[jacko]

I was hesitant to say anything but, actually I had done all the things on this list except for the snake thing because God hasn't put that situation in my life like He did with Paul.

1. "In my name shall they cast out devils" - There was someone I know who I witnessed was possessed. This was early in my salvation, but God had already proven to me just how powerful He is and how frightened demons are of Him. All I did was pray for her and when I laid my hand on her. She said it feels like burning where I touched, but we both felt the demon leave her and it went away. This is not a gift that I always had. God gave this gift to me only when it was needed. Which makes sense because I don't meet many possessed people very often at all.

2. "they shall speak with new tongues" - I've already posted my testimony about this.

3. "and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them" - I accidentally drank too much of a medicine one time. I started to black out and my breathing became shallow, so I prayed non-stop that I don't get hurt or die from this. And God helped me stay awake and kept me breathing until I felt the medicine was no longer in my body. It didn't go away from vomiting it up or relieving myself in the bathroom. God just removed it.

4. "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" - I've done this too a number of times. It's all God though because all I did is lay hands and pray over them and they got healed because of God.


All the times that these things happened were not "showy" situations. They happened because God prompted me to pray over these people in their situation because that how He wanted to help them. It was more to glorify God in the lives of the affected people, and not to glorify me just because He included me in that help.


🥌

We should have a thread dedicated to miracles, signs and wonders, healing etc. It would be fascinating to hear all the wonderful stories that our members have personally witnessed.

 

[Lynx]

We should have a thread dedicated to miracles, signs and wonders, healing etc. It would be fascinating to hear all the wonderful stories that our members have personally witnessed.

I'm sure there's a few threads like that around here somewhere. Have you tried the search button? It's in the top right corner of your screen.

 

[Musicmaster]

Are you asking for medical documented proof that believers have laid hand on sick people and they were healed after this statement was made? I am assuming that you believe the scripture accounts in Acts? So are you asking for proof that it continued happening after that. I assume that you believe the account about Paul being bitten by a venomous snake and shaking it off was true. So are you asking if there are other accounts today? I haven't encountered a snake event yet but then I haven't been on a mission trip that involved being bitten by one. I don't have any reason to believe that Paul had any other snake encounters besides the one. There are lots of accounts of people who asked for prayer by believers and elders in the church and went to the doctor and were told their malignant cancerous biopsied tumor had disappeared before they received cancer treatment. I know of one in a church I attended in New York. The medical document said that they did not know what happened to the tumor but the know that they did not misdiagnose and had proof of the biopsy. This is proof of a miracle of healing after believers laid hands on her and prayed in faith in Jesus Name. There are many such proofs.

I'm speaking about today, not back then. It was operational in early Acts, but as Israel and Kingdom Gospel diminished, so did the operations under the Kingdom Gospel.

So, as I said a couple times now, for those who believe that what Jesus said is something spoken to us today under the Gospel of Grace, every believer should therefore be able to do what Jesus stated, as quoted, in that verse. That is EVERY true believer.

Does that clarify what I'm saying?

We are under the Gospel of Grace, and those miracles performed by ALL believers as is promised by the words of Jesus, were active and commonplace under the Kingdom Gospel. We are not under that today. It has been set aside for a time.

MM

 

[Eli1]

We should have a thread dedicated to miracles, signs and wonders, healing etc. It would be fascinating to hear all the wonderful stories that our members have personally witnessed.

Here you go: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-miracles-thread.208717/

Also, as Lynx said, search the Titles only. I do this from time to time and i resurrect old threads. It's a habit of mine because i work with computers and i want to "save" memory.

 

[Lynx]

We are under the Gospel of Grace, and those miracles performed by ALL believers as is promised by the words of Jesus, were active and commonplace under the Kingdom Gospel. We are not under that today. It has been set aside for a time.

MM

What you mean was never in doubt.

But if it was true, that would be soooooooo depressing!

I'm glad it's not true. You may think it's true, but I have seen otherwise. I'm SO glad it's not true.

 

[Musicmaster]

Mark 16:16-18
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

If it's one continuous Gospel throughout the NT, then every believer should be able to do these things. Jesus placed no time limit upon these "signs" listed above. There are those who claim ONLY ONE of these things as being operational, and yet they do not go out and even attempt these other things, such as laying hands upon the sick and they recover.

Now, if it's all one Gospel throughout, with all the Gospel elements mentioned by different apostles being under one dispensation, then why can't those who claim to "believe" do these things without resorting to diversionary tactics by claiming that they can "pray" in the tongues of angels? It's always claims for things unverifiable. God never operates on that basis all the time.

Given the sheer number of those who claim to be believers, why are hospitals and clinics growing in size and number, with ICU's filled with the infirmed, with many in those institutions being professing believers whose health has been ruined by the large amounts of lead, arsenic, cadmium and other harmful metals and chemicals in our food supply here in the West?

Just go to this website and you will see a listing of LAB TESTED foods on the market that have unsafe levels of these and other deadly chemicals and metals in foods we all eat, and based upon our own Government's levels for safety.

Why are believers today dying so young from these things if Jesus was speaking to us today along with those people back then? Are you all not believers according to how the Bible defines those who "believe?" Most can and will ignore these questions, fearing to dare try and grapple with their own inabilities in these things, especially with the indictment of "...these things SHALL follow THEM THAT BELIEVE..." Don't you believe?

If you believe, then why can't you do ALL or even SOME of these things. Yammering in gibberish isn't a gift or proof of being filled with Holy Spirit. The language of Mark 16 doesn't at all imply a limitation to only one of these items being operable within each individual believer, or even combinations, but instead says, in plural, to all who believe, THEY will do these things in the name of Jesus.

Rather than to ignore the question as does Roberts and so many others of his ilk, why aren't you all out there emptying the hospitals and clinics? Why are so many professing believers laid up in hospitals, and why are so many people out there possessed of devils in the asylums and prisons? Why are so many professing believers falling victim to the impurities in the food supply and water supply.

Never mind the accusations of unbelief leveled against me, explain why YOU can't do these things is they are all still operable? Don't you have faith? Don't you believe? This has nothing to do with me and what I believe or don't believe. Just answer the questions if you think you can without resorting to the feebleness of accusation against others and myself.

What I DO believe is that we today CAN'T do these things because those things were not written TO us under the Gospel of Grace as preached by Paul to the Jews and Gentiles. Nowhere did Paul preach the continuance of those things under the Gospel of Grace. Those things were promised under the Kingdom Gospel that nowhere pointed to the shed Blood of Christ in crucifixion, burial and resurrection. Only Paul's Gospel declared saving faith based upon those last three items as the Gospel that saves. Not water baptism, but simply faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Not by works, but by faith.

I was married to a Charismatic for 23 years before she died from COVID...but not because she lacked faith, but because none of those things are possessed by, nor empowered to, believers today. The mustard seed of faith was preached to those who were under the Kingdom Gospel, not to Jews and Gentiles under the Gospel of Grace.

Preaching the gospel of works as we see in James 2 is "another gospel" not meant for us today. Sound radical and heretical to your ears? If so, then put your faith to the test by getting your fat backsides out there and start trying to work those miracles, and your lack of any ABILITY and EMPOWERMENT to work any of those things will have them rolling on the sidewalks and floors in laughter at the delusional clown show of it all.

I believe Paul and the believers of that time did indeed have those miracles working through them, but the revelation of the mystery brought them to an end with the decline and setting aside of Israel in order to usher in the age of grace since Israel had failed in her duty to be the source for salvation unto the Gentile world.

So, what I disbelieve is that ANYONE here and beyond can lay hands on the sick and heal them, and that you can't do any of those other things as operators under the Kingdom Gospel. The REAL lack of faith here is in those who fail to rightly divide the word of truth. Some will twist my words to their own evil ends, and that is what it is. Witt will never empower anyone to work all those things in a world filled with people who need the TRUE Gospel.

MM

 

[Lynx]

You can choose not to believe it if you want. Doesn't change what the folks down here in our church are doing.

Some people choose to believe the Earth is flat. Doesn't change airline routes. They still go around the globe.

 

[GWH]

Respectfully, and what are your qualifications to “teach”? So that I may learn.

I was responding to your saying "Not interested in hearing your bible flex and your passages", when it is God's Word/Holy Spirit that teaches, and I try to be a lead learner.