Gifts of the Spirit
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In continuance of my last post, the question posed by Gideon in Judges 6v13 is still very relevant today!
Judges 6v13 states:
Gideon said to Him, "O my lord, if the Lord is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, 'Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt?' But now the Lord has forsaken us and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites."
Yahweh Shalom
Judges 6v13 states:
Gideon said to Him, "O my lord, if the Lord is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, 'Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt?' But now the Lord has forsaken us and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites."
Yahweh Shalom
W
I disagree . The apostle and prophets being a foundation J.C being the corner stone .I think the "leadership" better be under the prophets " the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy" I think true prophesy is almost nonexistence at least in most assemblies ,I have seen it all. I think the true prophets spend most of their time before the lord and speaking forth what he puts into their hearts by an extraordinary gift of faith. There still are wise master builders .part of Christs body which are never seen, but still declared from the rooftops. Or like the centurion I believe. that knew that Christ didn't need to go to his house but only speak to those under his authority. Not such a faith in all Israel. Prophesy is now and to come one the most important guides for us as the fulfillment of our lord purposes are beginning to manifest now in a special way I just read Isaiah .... wow.... we need to wholly trust in our loving Lord and not our on strength and proclaim this from the housetops , blessing to all those in Christ
K
Thank you, Elizabeth. We can get down to some serious Scripture study.
1. I agree with everything he says, except where he adds his own words to Scripture in his quote of Cor. 12:28 "(no longer in this church age)" That needs to proved from Scripture. His statement explaining it above states: "Apostles can no longer exist because by definition, they would be those church leaders who have been commissioned by the risen Christ and having been done so in His presence." This statement is Catholic theology and violates Scripture. Barnabas begins as a levite in Acts 4:36 and is clearly not an apostle in Acts 9:37, yet he is an apostle in Acts 14:14. The early church states specifically, though not in Scripture, that many people were apostles (Didache), and I Clement to Corinthians ch. 54 states they became apostles by doing what Barnabas did in Acts 15:39. Barnabas had never been in the physical presence of Christ inbetween the two chapters of Acts (9 and 14). Further, the fact that Paul had trouble with false apostles proves that people could not tell which were the true ones, thus proving there could not have been just the 12 and Paul as is usually claimed. If there were a list, people would have just checked if a given apostle were on the list. Further, Eph. 4:13 states that five ministries are to continue "until we come...". If we are to that place which we are to come to, then none of those five should exist. If we are not there, then all of them must exist. The word "until" in that context won't let you split it into two lists.
I agree with everything else he says. Unfortunately, he has forgotten several other Scriptures and only quoted what suited his purpose. For example, prophecy and miracles are indeed what he says they are. But they can be more. If prophecy is only the gift of teachers and pastors, then why does the Bible mention three separate groups in Eph. 4:11? It does not say He gave "prophecy"; it says He gave "prophets". If miracles are only conversion (and yes, that is a great miracle), then we are denying God the right to do as He did throughout the Old Testament, and saying He cannot be the same yesterday, today and forever. Whether to work a miracle is God's choice, not ours.
The omissions concerning tongues should get this guy thrown out as a Christian author. He states: "It’s very difficult out of this passage to get any kind of mandate to speak in tongues, to get any kind of affirmation that this is something to be sought, because what you have here are primarily corrective orders given to the Corinthians." I agree there is no mandate, but there is encouragement: I Cor. 14:5 "I would that you all spoke in tongues"; I Cor. 14:18 "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all": I Cor. 14:39 "Forbid not to speak in tongues". Concerning the last, just suppose your author is wrong, and God is in fact trying to restore the NT gifts in our days? He is violating the last verse by telling people not to!
The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts as He wills. The Greek word here could have been chosen from any of four. The word used suggests "in ways that will give Him joy." (This is the source of my belief that the gifts ceased because the church grieved the Holy Spirit, but I can't prove that.) If God chooses to have gifts for two hundred years, and then not have them for 1800 years, and then have them again, that is His business. If add the words of men to deny apostleship, and if we select only those verses that support our position, we might not even notice.
I could understand if you were claiming that the "gifts" as used today are not the same as those of NT. I can prove from Scripture they are, at least in some places that I know of. Yes there are counterfeits, but there is also a parable about wheat and tares needing to grow together. But to put together theological treatises that add to the Word of God, and carefully omit certain verses, in order to prove that the gifts cannot return, is just a subtle way to persuade people not to check out if God is really doing this or not, and that is almost as bad as "forbidding to speak in tongues".
1. I agree with everything he says, except where he adds his own words to Scripture in his quote of Cor. 12:28 "(no longer in this church age)" That needs to proved from Scripture. His statement explaining it above states: "Apostles can no longer exist because by definition, they would be those church leaders who have been commissioned by the risen Christ and having been done so in His presence." This statement is Catholic theology and violates Scripture. Barnabas begins as a levite in Acts 4:36 and is clearly not an apostle in Acts 9:37, yet he is an apostle in Acts 14:14. The early church states specifically, though not in Scripture, that many people were apostles (Didache), and I Clement to Corinthians ch. 54 states they became apostles by doing what Barnabas did in Acts 15:39. Barnabas had never been in the physical presence of Christ inbetween the two chapters of Acts (9 and 14). Further, the fact that Paul had trouble with false apostles proves that people could not tell which were the true ones, thus proving there could not have been just the 12 and Paul as is usually claimed. If there were a list, people would have just checked if a given apostle were on the list. Further, Eph. 4:13 states that five ministries are to continue "until we come...". If we are to that place which we are to come to, then none of those five should exist. If we are not there, then all of them must exist. The word "until" in that context won't let you split it into two lists.
I agree with everything else he says. Unfortunately, he has forgotten several other Scriptures and only quoted what suited his purpose. For example, prophecy and miracles are indeed what he says they are. But they can be more. If prophecy is only the gift of teachers and pastors, then why does the Bible mention three separate groups in Eph. 4:11? It does not say He gave "prophecy"; it says He gave "prophets". If miracles are only conversion (and yes, that is a great miracle), then we are denying God the right to do as He did throughout the Old Testament, and saying He cannot be the same yesterday, today and forever. Whether to work a miracle is God's choice, not ours.
The omissions concerning tongues should get this guy thrown out as a Christian author. He states: "It’s very difficult out of this passage to get any kind of mandate to speak in tongues, to get any kind of affirmation that this is something to be sought, because what you have here are primarily corrective orders given to the Corinthians." I agree there is no mandate, but there is encouragement: I Cor. 14:5 "I would that you all spoke in tongues"; I Cor. 14:18 "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all": I Cor. 14:39 "Forbid not to speak in tongues". Concerning the last, just suppose your author is wrong, and God is in fact trying to restore the NT gifts in our days? He is violating the last verse by telling people not to!
The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts as He wills. The Greek word here could have been chosen from any of four. The word used suggests "in ways that will give Him joy." (This is the source of my belief that the gifts ceased because the church grieved the Holy Spirit, but I can't prove that.) If God chooses to have gifts for two hundred years, and then not have them for 1800 years, and then have them again, that is His business. If add the words of men to deny apostleship, and if we select only those verses that support our position, we might not even notice.
I could understand if you were claiming that the "gifts" as used today are not the same as those of NT. I can prove from Scripture they are, at least in some places that I know of. Yes there are counterfeits, but there is also a parable about wheat and tares needing to grow together. But to put together theological treatises that add to the Word of God, and carefully omit certain verses, in order to prove that the gifts cannot return, is just a subtle way to persuade people not to check out if God is really doing this or not, and that is almost as bad as "forbidding to speak in tongues".
There were parts of the article that I will admit left me scratching my head, but his description of the gifts I liked.
I will read over the article and the parts you had problems with and hopefully come more toward what the truth really is.
Im not saying either one of us is right or wrong, but many times I will look at other peoples views of a topic. They sometimes bring a different perspective to it that I never thought before so that is why I posted his article.
And where is ricky? he hasnt been online today
I will read over the article and the parts you had problems with and hopefully come more toward what the truth really is.
Im not saying either one of us is right or wrong, but many times I will look at other peoples views of a topic. They sometimes bring a different perspective to it that I never thought before so that is why I posted his article.
And where is ricky? he hasnt been online today
