God did away with some of His own sayings

[just-me]

Its less so anger and more so annoyance. You didn't answer the questions. Why is that? I am annoyed at how atwhatcost came in here throwing about accusations and defaming people, including myself saying we skipped over things and are pouncing on people. I am also annoyed that you won't plainly state your perspective but rather let others defend what you believe without stating it plainly. Just do it, answer the questions, it would be greatly appreciated.

First off, I am not interested in your presumptuous leading questions. I have been candid. You have propagated assumptions toward me, and I have left you to arguing with the wall because I'm really not interested in your remarks of trumpedup allegations that have no validity. If you cannot have the capability to be at peace, and converse like a man, I'm not interested. Do you worship as Paul did, or do you only take part of his teachings according to what you desire and leave the other things he taught aside? Now, if you have a problem with another person that agrees with me, direct your remarks to them.

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Romans 16:17

 

[KennethC]

KennethC, not now... this will just derail the thread even more. Maybe you can clear the air. What do you believe is the OP's point and is it wrong to infer there is in some way, how ever small, a hint of law abidance being hinted at with the post?

What I believe is what the whole word of God says, and that some things have been fulfilled through Christ such as;

1) Sacrificial laws = Fulfilled by Christ as our one time for all sacrifice......

2) Curse of the law (physical punishments) = Fulfilled by Christ as He took the punishment for our sins

3) Cleansing/sanctification laws = Fulfilled by the Lord's command to be baptized a.k.a being born again......

4) Gods moral law (10 Commandments) = Fulfilled by the Lord's command to us to walk in love a.k.a. follow the two greatest commandments to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind; and to love our neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:4, Romans 13:9-11)

5) Unclean foods/meat or people/Gentiles = Fulfilled by the Lord by making them clean

6) 10% tithed = Amended to give what you can from the heart, not out of obligation

There is a spiritual aspect that the Mosaic laws pointed to, but the written ordinance form we are not bound to.

The spiritual aspect to walk in love does uphold the moral law of God that is written in our hearts and minds !!!

 

[KennethC]

That's just more works based mentality. I don't walk in peace, love and joy so I can be in Christ. Because I'm in Christ, I walk in peace, love and joy.

Call it what you want but Paul, Peter, and John all three show in their epistles that if people are not walking in those fruits then eternal life does not abide in those people.

I believe what they say as it comes from the Holy Spirit, and even Jesus Himself said if those fruits are not produced through a person they will be cut off and thrown into the fire to be burned up.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First off, I am not interested in your presumptuous leading questions. I have been candid. You have propagated assumptions toward me, and I have left you to arguing with the wall because I'm really not interested in your remarks of trumpedup allegations that have no validity. If you cannot have the capability to be at peace, and converse like a man, I'm not interested. Do you worship as Paul did, or do you only take part of his teachings according to what you desire and leave the other things he taught aside? Now, if you have a problem with another person that agrees with me, direct your remarks to them.

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. Romans 16:17

This is just me's normal opporendi.

If she asked a question we are damned if we do not answer. If he s asked a question. We are leading her and he does not have to answer.

This alone should cause people to look at him and anything he says with suspician.

Again, if our doctrines and beliefs are secure, there should be absolutely no reason not to answer any question asked. The only reason people refuse to answer is


1. They can't
2. They know answering will prove them wrong
3. They know if they answer people will see who they realy are.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Call it what you want but Paul, Peter, and John all three show in their epistles that if people are not walking in those fruits then eternal life does not abide in those people.

True, John goes even further and says they have never seen God nor known God.

I believe what they say as it comes from the Holy Spirit, and even Jesus Himself said if those fruits are not produced through a person they will be cut off and thrown into the fire to be burned up.

How can one who has never seen or known God ever be cut off from God?

I promised not to make false accusations against you. So instead I will ask a question.

How can you claim one is not earning salvation, when you teach if something is not done, you will not be saved, or will be in your own words "cut off" from that salvation.

is that not the defenition of earning? (ie doing works to gain a reward which in this case is eternal life)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Call it what you want but Paul, Peter, and John all three show in their epistles that if people are not walking in those fruits then eternal life does not abide in those people.

I believe what they say as it comes from the Holy Spirit, and even Jesus Himself said if those fruits are not produced through a person they will be cut off and thrown into the fire to be burned up.

This is very true, for Jesus said:

"“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

 

[just-me]

One of the cool things I've learned in my studies in the last year is there is a difference between an angel of God and the angel of God. Like they're different words in the original language, so people will catch on. (I can't read original language so that certainly didn't help me for 43 years. lol) An angel of God is a messenger. The angel of God is God -- aka Jesus.

Three guys visited Abraham on the way to Sodom and Gomorrah to fetch Lot and family. One stayed with Abraham. The other two kept going after a meal. The one who stayed with him was Jesus. The other two were messengers.

That fire-cloud in the wilderness was a "the angel," not a "an angel." Jesus literally led the Israelites.

And yet, even now, we're busy dividing the Bible into Old God/New God, old rules/new rules/no rules. He's been there all along.

SAME God, same rules, new terms. Only thing that changed was God showed Man we wouldn't/couldn't follow the contract, so he made one with the only two that could -- Father and Son. SAME God, SAME Rules, New Terms. Trust Jesus. Not to say God ever changed his mind on the rules. He merely showed us the same thing all the way through. Those rules are HIS perfection. Follow them -- not in a legalistic sense -- and you follow God. Don't know what you should do if you back into a neighbor's dog? Look it up. It's covered. We don't pay for the dog or pay for the vet bills because that's what our country's law says. We do that because that is who God tells us to be.

Sure beats the forever-chant "I do whatever Jesus tells me to do without ever finding out what he tells me to do." And in response to that one, Yeah, I'm perfect too.

I started a thread that said Jesus was the creator of all things and went as far as to say the He led Israel into the promised land. I got flack for that also. Guess what? I was right. So in summary, all of God's spoken words are actually Jesus' spoken words.

"Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries." Exodus 23:20-22

"obey his voice, and do all that I speak"

Obeying Jesus is doing all of what God speaks. Obeying God is doing all of what Jesus says.
How about that?

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is very true, for Jesus said:

"“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

so we lose salvation, or the ability to produce fruit (reward?)

 

[KennethC]

True, John goes even further and says they have never seen God nor known God.

How can one who has never seen or known God ever be cut off from God?

I promised not to make false accusations against you. So instead I will ask a question.

How can you claim one is not earning salvation, when you teach if something is not done, you will not be saved, or will be in your own words "cut off" from that salvation.

is that not the defenition of earning? (ie doing works to gain a reward which in this case is eternal life)

All I can say to you is take that up in prayer to God because it is our Lord Jesus Himself and the Apostles lead by the Holy Spirit who showed in the scriptures the difference of self works from works of the faith.

Works of the faith are to do be done as those are Christs teachings and commands on how to receive remission of sins, become a disciple, and continue in His goodness.

Apostle Paul is one of the most straight forward teachers who repeated himself constantly from Acts 20:28-31 all the way through to 1 Timothy 4 about the danger of falling away from the faith a.k.a. not continuing in the faith. He does not say it is impossible to do, but says the opposite that it does and will happen and the ending result for such that do this will not be eternal life/salvation unless they return to the Lord.


In John 15:2 Jesus said any branch in Me that does not produce fruit (we are the branches), and in order to be in Him you would have to be in the faith (believe in Him). He says will be cut off and cast into the fire and burned up !!!

 

[KennethC]

so we lose salvation, or the ability to produce fruit (reward?)

It is not rewards that are lost if that person is cast into the lake of fire to be burned up !!!

 

[shotgunner]

Call it what you want but Paul, Peter, and John all three show in their epistles that if people are not walking in those fruits then eternal life does not abide in those people.

I believe what they say as it comes from the Holy Spirit, and even Jesus Himself said if those fruits are not produced through a person they will be cut off and thrown into the fire to be burned up.

I just don't want anyone including you to look at it backwards. Fruit isn't produced so that the branches can be attached to the vine. Fruit is a natural occurrence of the branches being attached to the vine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is not rewards that are lost if that person is cast into the lake of fire to be burned up !!!

But who said he was cast in the lake of fire? No one who goed to the bema seat is cast in the lake of fire, the bema seat is to recieve (or not recieve) reward.

The great white throne is the judgment seat for the lake of fire. No child of God will be present at that judgment, only death and hades are delivered to Christ there.
so what point are you trying to make?

 

[KennethC]

It is not rewards that are lost if that person is cast into the lake of fire to be burned up !!!

I wanted to add also that notice the scripture from the Lord Jesus says the branches(people) are gathered and cast into the fire to be burned up.

The scripture about rewards says the persons works, not the person themselves, will be tested by fire and if any remain they will receive a reward. The difference one is speaking the believer, and the other is speaking on testing of works !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All I can say to you is take that up in prayer to God because it is our Lord Jesus Himself and the Apostles lead by the Holy Spirit who showed in the scriptures the difference of self works from works of the faith.

Why would i have to take it up to the lord when it is common sense.

You earn (work0 for a reward.

A gift is freely given.

Works of the faith are to do be done as those are Christs teachings and commands on how to receive remission of sins, become a disciple, and continue in His goodness.

So we earn remission of sin by doing works of faith? What is the difference between works of faith and non works of faith? this does not make sense, do you not think a legalist (say like a pharisee) is doing works of faith to earn remission of sin?

Again, this is not making sense (I am being honest not trying to be argumentative)

Apostle Paul is one of the most straight forward teachers who repeated himself constantly from Acts 20:28-31 all the way through to 1 Timothy 4 about the danger of falling away from the faith a.k.a. not continuing in the faith. He does not say it is impossible to do, but says the opposite that it does and will happen and the ending result for such that do this will not be eternal life/salvation unless they return to the Lord.

He does say it is impossible. He says if one falls away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. so this salvation being lost then renewed then lost again by continuing to repent is not according to the word of God. If salvation could be lost. it is lost forever. no such things as salvation being renewed from what I see

so again I ask, How can you claim your not trying to earn salvation, or teaching salvation based on works, when your demanding that works are required. Are you not contradicting yourself?

In John 15:2 Jesus said any branch in Me that does not produce fruit (we are the branches), and in order to be in Him you would have to be in the faith (believe in Him). He says will be cut off and cast into the fire and burned up !!!

Read the context.

If your his you are already clean (he said completely clean later)

He said if it does not bear fruit, the branch is cut off and burned. It does not say it is cast into the lake of fire. Did you even read the whole passage?

 

[KennethC]

But who said he was cast in the lake of fire? No one who goed to the bema seat is cast in the lake of fire, the bema seat is to recieve (or not recieve) reward.

The great white throne is the judgment seat for the lake of fire. No child of God will be present at that judgment, only death and hades are delivered to Christ there.
so what point are you trying to make?

Which is where scriptures and passages such as Matthew 25, Luke 12, Hebrews 3-4, 10:26-31, and Colossians 1:22-23 come into play. As they show that disobedience to the gospel (His teachings and commands) will lead one to stand before God at judgment and not the bema seat receiving rewards.

 

[shotgunner]

All I can say to you is take that up in prayer to God because it is our Lord Jesus Himself and the Apostles lead by the Holy Spirit who showed in the scriptures the difference of self works from works of the faith.

Works of the faith are to do be done as those are Christs teachings and commands on how to receive remission of sins, become a disciple, and continue in His goodness.

Apostle Paul is one of the most straight forward teachers who repeated himself constantly from Acts 20:28-31 all the way through to 1 Timothy 4 about the danger of falling away from the faith a.k.a. not continuing in the faith. He does not say it is impossible to do, but says the opposite that it does and will happen and the ending result for such that do this will not be eternal life/salvation unless they return to the Lord.


In John 15:2 Jesus said any branch in Me that does not produce fruit (we are the branches), and in order to be in Him you would have to be in the faith (believe in Him). He says will be cut off and cast into the fire and burned up !!!

Actually in John 15:2 the word translated taketh away is the word airo which means to lift. just a vine dresser lifts a vine and ties it up so that it bears fruit.

Jesus says that if you abide not in him you are cast forth as a branch and burned John 15:6.

 

[just-me]

It is not rewards that are lost if that person is cast into the lake of fire to be burned up !!!

Good post!

"Their worm" is possessive. The cocoon is weaved while on earth and still in this mortal body. This is for the deceived and the ungodly.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:24

Mark 9:43-50
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

"Their worm" is an eternal reminder of what could have been, but it's too late.

 

[KennethC]

Why would i have to take it up to the lord when it is common sense.

You earn (work0 for a reward.

A gift is freely given.




So we earn remission of sin by doing works of faith? What is the difference between works of faith and non works of faith? this does not make sense, do you not think a legalist (say like a pharisee) is doing works of faith to earn remission of sin?

Again, this is not making sense (I am being honest not trying to be argumentative)



He does say it is impossible. He says if one falls away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance. so this salvation being lost then renewed then lost again by continuing to repent is not according to the word of God. If salvation could be lost. it is lost forever. no such things as salvation being renewed from what I see

so again I ask, How can you claim your not trying to earn salvation, or teaching salvation based on works, when your demanding that works are required. Are you not contradicting yourself?






Read the context.

If your his you are already clean (he said completely clean later)

He said if it does not bear fruit, the branch is cut off and burned. It does not say it is cast into the lake of fire. Did you even read the whole passage?

You are thinking of Hebrews 6:4-6 here and it is not guaranteed that Paul wrote that epistle, and if you read it carefully you will see the writer is not saying in all cases it is impossible to be renewed to repentance.

He is saying it is only impossible for those who have fallen back to deliberate sinful lifestyle again and do not want to give that way up. For you can not get a person to repent if they will not give up their sinful ways !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I wanted to add also that notice the scripture from the Lord Jesus says the branches(people) are gathered and cast into the fire to be burned up.

The scripture about rewards says the persons works, not the person themselves, will be tested by fire and if any remain they will receive a reward. The difference one is speaking the believer, and the other is speaking on testing of works !!!

Scripture also says that one who is saved is sealed by the Holy SPirit of promise until the day of redemption (judgment day) and this seal is the guarantee of his salvation.

So how can someone be sealed by the HS until he recieved his judgment, and be cast into the lake of fire?

Scripture can not contradict now can it? Interpret scripture with scripture not with our belief system.

Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

Bearing fruit is earning reward. That is what it means, God is the one who produces the fruit through you. It is not earning salvation it is earning reward. so again, context.

It says if your not going to be used of God he will cut you off. Not out.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are thinking of Hebrews 6:4-6 here and it is not guaranteed that Paul wrote that epistle, and if you read it carefully you will see the writer is not saying in all cases it is impossible to be renewed to repentance.

He is saying it is only impossible for those who have fallen back to deliberate sinful lifestyle again and do not want to give that way up. For you can not get a person to repent if they will not give up their sinful ways !!!

A person who does not give up his sinful ways has never repented to begin with, nor has he ever been saved, How can they lose something they never had?