God's Elect: This Ends Any Debate

[p_rehbein]

Even sanctified mature people have walked away, I know I was one of them.

If this is true, then you are no longer a Christian? The rest of your comment seems to say you simply had a crisis of faith at one time. IMO, that is not walking away. Those who turn their backs on salvation and never return are those who walk away. The great "falling away" spoken of in Scripture. I'm glad you returned to your first Love. Your story appears to mirror that of the Prodigal Son in Scripture.

What your comment also reveals is free will. You willingly chose to turn your back, and willingly chose to return.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

What did Jesus say? Many are called, but few are chosen.

To be 'called' means one must work out their own salvation in Christ, i.e., remain in the Faith and walk by The Spirit. Only in that condition do we garner remaining in Christ and being saved.

But for those "chosen", those He already owns, like He showed in the John 17 Chapter, which NO ONE here as even faintly mentioned, showing they aren't really interested in what God's Word teaches about this, but instead would rather hear "smooth things" preached by the deceived in their ears.

First rule when reading the Bible is you don't take a chapter or verse and make a doctrine out of it. It has to flow with the rest of what the Word teaches. That is why there is so much false doctrine today.

Brethren, consider what it means when some preacher pushes to you that once you are saved in Jesus Christ that you never ever again have need for repentance of future sins, even though Jesus Himself gave us how to pray, asking forgiveness of our sins, per Luke 11. Those men who teach that all your future sins are forgiven are serving the devil, because Apostle Paul was clear that our first belief on Christ for the remission of sins was for PAST sins up to that point...

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV

How many brethren didn't even know that above Scripture by Apostle Paul even existed?

1 John 1 is where we learn what to do after we catch ourselves in future sin. We are to repent to Lord Jesus about it. Fake churches won't even hold Communion with Christ anymore because of the devil's false 'once saved, always saved' Hyper-Grace traditions of men.

I don't disagree there. The Bible says he who turns his hand to the plow and looks back isn't worthy of the kingdom. I believe OSAS is false doctrine.

 

[homwardbound]

See my Post #19.

You either believe God or not. as only you know the truth of that, as all also know too
Romans 8, thank you glad you believe God all in all as God will not and does not give up on us the people as far as I can see the east from the west is so far it became eternally thankful to me from God through Son
Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new

love from God to us all
1 Corinthians 13
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. ...
1 Corinthians 13:4
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

As God Father to impute this truth in you giving you the new heart too, Ezekiel 36:26 if not got it yet, thank you

 

[MeowFlower]

One of the most important Bible Chapters that reveals what God's election is about is with Lord Jesus' prayer in John 17 just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified.

Jesus revealed 2 different groups of believers in John 17:

1. His elect Apostles, prophets, patriarchs. Jesus showed The Father originally owned them, and gave them to Jesus. He thus will often directly intervene in their lives to serve Him. This is why Lord Jesus directly intervened with Saul (Apostle Paul), converting him on the road to Damascus when Saul was persecuting the Church (Acts 9). The word apostle means to be 'sent'. Jesus said He sent these into the world, and that they are not of the world. Likewise with Jonah, he tried to get out of his duty that God gave him, but God made him fulfill it. Ownership, that's what this group is about. He already owned them before this present world. These represent Christ's "very elect". Calvinists often wrongly... apply this group to every believer, but that is not what Lord Jesus showed in John 17.

2. Those who must believe by using their own free will represent the majority of believers on The Father and The Son. This second group Jesus revealed is by their believing by His Apostle's word (i.e., preaching of The Gospel). These still can use their free will to fall away, and God will allow it and will not intervene unless they repent and ask Him.

Then Jesus prayed that BOTH groups would become 'one' in Him and The Father.

This means that the 1st group, His "very elect", cannot... fall away, because He already owns them.

But the 2nd group of believers can fall away by their own choice, and they only become part of His election while they remain walking in Christ Jesus.

This is why man's 'Once Saved, Always Saved' doctrine is not Biblical. For the majority of us, we must... remain walking in Christ Jesus until the end, and beware of being deceived by Satan and his host. This is why Christ and His Apostles, especially Apostle Paul, gave so many warnings against falling away, especially for those in the last days. It is why He warned us about the coming Antichrist-false-Messiah that must come first playing God with the power to do miracles like Jesus Christ.

Your comment about OSAS, doesn't make sense when taken into consideration with the rest of your supposition.


If God Elects whom to save before the world was founded,as he tells us,and he wrote those names down in his book of life,then those persons are saved once and for all. Because God predestined this.

 

[brightfame52]

@DavyP

Other way around brother, because that is specifically the issue Apostle Paul was warning brethren about in 2 Thessalonians 2:34 about the coming Antichrist at the end of this world. Someone not willing to address that warning 'as written', show they are only expressing their feelings, and not staying with what the Scripture actually teaches as written.

Again, lacking understanding

 

[Gideon300]

No... I am not joking. What God's Word says on the matter, as written, ends all debate on the issue. I've posted the Bible Scripture evidence, but all the rebuttal responses are just people's opinion with not even addressing the Scriptures I quoted.

I quoted scriptures to back up what I said. Did you read them?

 

[DavyP]

As The New Testament reveals, especially by Apostles Paul and Peter, a believer on Jesus Christ CAN... fall away from Christ (see also Hebrews 6). The proof of this is with all the New Testament warnings against deception and falling away given to the Church, especially by Paul and Peter.

If man's Hyper-Grace movement were true about their false OSAS doctrine, then there should be NO warnings given by Christ and His Apostles to His Church to not fall away, or not be deceived. It is Christ's very elect which He already owns and intervenes directly with that cannot fall away nor be deceived, as they are the 'chosen' sent ones. That only applies to the whole Church that 'remains faithful in Christ Jesus' all the way to the end. Those who will fall away, or be deceived, are 'cut off'.

Lord Jesus' 1st warning in His Olivet discourse to His Church...

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."
KJV

Apostle Paul gave that same warning about the coming final Antichrist in Jerusalem...

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

 

[brightfame52]

@DavyP

As The New Testament reveals, especially by Apostles Paul and Peter, a believer on Jesus Christ CAN... fall away from Christ (see also Hebrews 6).

False, if they fall away they were never saved, People/Elect who are saved are preserved by God. Ultimately the elect cannot be deceived from the Truth Matt 24:23-24

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[DavyP]

@DavyP



False, if they fall away they were never saved, People/Elect who are saved are preserved by God. Ultimately the elect cannot be deceived from the Truth Matt 24:23-24

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

You fail to address the Hebrews 6 warning against falling away because likely you instead follow men's Hyper-Grace OSAS doctrines instead. So why not just tear out that Hebrews 6 Chapter out of your Bible?

Your applying those Matt.24:23-24 verses to all believers is error also, for your false interpretation based on men's false Hyper-Grace movement omits New Testament warnings against falling away at the end by the "man of sin" (2 Thess.2). You might as well tear out those pages warning the Church against falling away to the Antichrist in your Bible too, and there's a lot of them.

Personally, I would be ashamed to be found following a bunch of devils that teach to omit the many New Testament warnings given to the Church against being deceived and falling away from Christ.

 

[DavyP]

I quoted scriptures to back up what I said. Did you read them?

No, I did not. Your words lost my interest when you began talking about multiple salvations.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If this is true, then you are no longer a Christian? The rest of your comment seems to say you simply had a crisis of faith at one time. IMO, that is not walking away. Those who turn their backs on salvation and never return are those who walk away. The great "falling away" spoken of in Scripture. I'm glad you returned to your first Love. Your story appears to mirror that of the Prodigal Son in Scripture.

What your comment also reveals is free will. You willingly chose to turn your back, and willingly chose to return.

John said these antichrists were never of us, if they were of us, they never would have left.

People do not just walk away and repent back to their previous belief system, unless they never had true faith to begin with.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Your comment about OSAS, doesn't make sense when taken into consideration with the rest of your supposition.


If God Elects whom to save before the world was founded,as he tells us,and he wrote those names down in his book of life,then those persons are saved once and for all. Because God predestined this.

I believe that is why he separated them into two groups.

One must be OSAS. the second is NOSAS,

hence calvinism and arminianism in one post. He must be confused

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

As The New Testament reveals, especially by Apostles Paul and Peter, a believer on Jesus Christ CAN... fall away from Christ (see also Hebrews 6). The proof of this is with all the New Testament warnings against deception and falling away given to the Church, especially by Paul and Peter.

Um no they can not.

1. Heb 6 is speaking about returning to law. If we could fall away, we could never be renewed. It apposes your saved - lost- saved again- lost again NOSAS salvation

2. Paul spoke spoke of salvation by grace through faith not works. and warned those who were tryign to earn their salvation and called them fools.

I would take heed if I was you

If man's Hyper-Grace movement were true about their false OSAS doctrine, then there should be NO warnings given by Christ and His Apostles to His Church to not fall away, or not be deceived.

The warning is to make sure your faith is real. or about the church falling away.

The term hypergrace comes from the passage, where sin abounded, grace abounded much more (Hyper- abounded)

It is Christ's very elect which He already owns and intervenes directly with that cannot fall away nor be deceived,

Which would be everyone who is born again.

as they are the 'chosen' sent ones. That only applies to the whole Church that 'remains faithful in Christ Jesus' all the way to the end. Those who will fall away, or be deceived, are 'cut off'.

I pray you look inside, you are one confused person.

Lord Jesus' 1st warning in His Olivet discourse to His Church...

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."
KJV

Apostle Paul gave that same warning about the coming final Antichrist in Jerusalem...

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

So why are you allowing yourself to be decieved?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No, I did not. Your words lost my interest when you began talking about multiple salvations.

so your own words must decieve you. as you are talking about multiple salvations.

Next..

 

[MeowFlower]

I believe that is why he separated them into two groups.

One must be OSAS. the second is NOSAS,

hence calvinism and arminianism in one post. He must be confused

I think the labels is what causes division.

Armenians believe they have to work to find and remain in Salvation. Which is not actually scripture.

While Calvinists ascribe to a doctrine that compiles scripture and informs God, as Jesus said, calls whom he wills to his grace as a free irrevocable gift.

If we accept God is So reign, has dominion over his creation and is eternally knowing of all things, then it stands to reason he knows whom to call to his Gospel and is therefore able to keep them saved.

As he says, salvation is not of ourselves so that we cannot, may not, boast. It is amazing how many insist they are able to despite that.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I think the labels is what causes division.

Armenians believe they have to work to find and remain in Salvation. Which is not actually scripture.

While Calvinists ascribe to a doctrine that compiles scripture and informs God, as Jesus said, calls whom he wills to his grace as a free irrevocable gift.

If we accept God is So reign, has dominion over his creation and is eternally knowing of all things, then it stands to reason he knows whom to call to his Gospel and is therefore able to keep them saved.

As he says, salvation is not of ourselves so that we cannot, may not, boast. It is amazing how many insist they are able to despite that.

calvinism has its issues also. double predestination and lack of free will is damning to the character of God..

But I agree. we should nto label people. Not everyone who believes in grace through faith is calvinist. and nto everyone who thinks salvation is conditional is armenian

 

[brightfame52]

You fail to address the Hebrews 6 warning against falling away because likely you instead follow men's Hyper-Grace OSAS doctrines instead. So why not just tear out that Hebrews 6 Chapter out of your Bible?

Your applying those Matt.24:23-24 verses to all believers is error also, for your false interpretation based on men's false Hyper-Grace movement omits New Testament warnings against falling away at the end by the "man of sin" (2 Thess.2). You might as well tear out those pages warning the Church against falling away to the Antichrist in your Bible too, and there's a lot of them.

Personally, I would be ashamed to be found following a bunch of devils that teach to omit the many New Testament warnings given to the Church against being deceived and falling away from Christ.

If they fall away they were never saved.

 

[DavyP]

Um no they can not.

1. Heb 6 is speaking about returning to law. If we could fall away, we could never be renewed. It apposes your saved - lost- saved again- lost again NOSAS salvation

2. Paul spoke spoke of salvation by grace through faith not works. and warned those who were tryign to earn their salvation and called them fools.

I would take heed if I was you


The warning is to make sure your faith is real. or about the church falling away.

The term hypergrace comes from the passage, where sin abounded, grace abounded much more (Hyper- abounded)

Which would be everyone who is born again.


I pray you look inside, you are one confused person.


So why are you allowing yourself to be decieved?

No use in discussing this with you since you obviously want to deny the Hebrews 6 Scripture, and many other warning Scriptures against falling away by the Apostles...

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV

1 Tim 4:1-2
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
KJV

 

[dougcho]

The 'Once Saved, Always Saved' doctrine of men, also linked with the Hyper-Grace movement, and with man's false pre-tribulational rapture escape doctrine, is designed to deceive. Those men who teach such things are not staying with the actual Bible Scriptures, but are preparing their congregations to be deceived especially at the end of this world during the coming "great tribulation".
Those men who come up with such ideas are more interested in finding ways to keep and build their congregations rather than reveal the Truth which God's Word warns us about with the end time events. Telling you that you are going to 'escape' the coming "great tribulation" altogether is one of their biggest lies to deceive you.

You are spot on! ... except IMO, some pastors are themselves deceived,
so perhaps are not as guilty as many others whose
big priority is to build up a "successful" church ...
which pays the mortgage, utilities, many salaries, etc.

 

[DavyP]

If they fall away they were never saved.

What it means is that men love to create their own versions of God's Plan of Salvation through His Son instead of actually sticking to what God's written Word says.

Per Apostle Paul in Romans 6, we as believers on Jesus Christ are to 'reckon' ourselves as having been buried with Christ by baptism into death...

Rom 6:3-7
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
KJV

Paul's Message above is for us believers to RECKON ourselves as saved, but obviously our resurrection has not literally happened yet, for we are still living in these flesh bodies of sin. That means we are STILL... subject to sin, and must follow Apostle John's Message in 1 John 1 about repenting of future sin we may fall into, to stay in our walk with Christ. That's different than Hyper-Grace preachers pushing their "you're saved and can no longer sin" false theories.