God's Intervention?
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No, according to how the bible defines God. I believe God is perfect in knowledge. If there is knowledge to be known, God knows it. I also believe that there are future events and decisions that are not knowledge until made. I believe God has chosen to limit his knowledge when dealing within the time frame of man.
1. Can God lie?
2. Did God have foreknowledge that Nineveh would repent, and in turn, he would not destroy them like he said he would do?
1. Can God lie?
2. Did God have foreknowledge that Hezekiah would cry out to him, and in turn, he would not die as God stated, but God would add 15 years onto his life?
Use man's philosophy to explain, or go with what saith the scriptures.
1. Can God lie?
2. Did God have foreknowledge that Nineveh would repent, and in turn, he would not destroy them like he said he would do?
1. Can God lie?
2. Did God have foreknowledge that Hezekiah would cry out to him, and in turn, he would not die as God stated, but God would add 15 years onto his life?
Use man's philosophy to explain, or go with what saith the scriptures.
You avoided my question! I never questioned His Sovereignty! That's a straw man! I asked how YOU think YOU know WHEN the Lord set to things in motion as expressions of His mercy in relation to things He knew were going to come up before the world ever existed! THAT is the question. You all seem to assume that He purely reactionary, only doing things on the fly as the situations arise in this timeline. How do you think you know that for sure? You can't see into the spiritual realm, so how do you all think you know so much about the events within a realm you can't even see?
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That's a straw man again! Will you not answer the questions asked of you?!? Why all the shuck and jive dancing around?
It matters not one bit what YOU think God "intended!" What matters is what actually happened!
What matters is that the Lord KNEW what was going to happen with those elements He KNEW were in that garden, and that were there because He placed the tree there, He KNEW the serpent was there, and He HEARD every word of the conversation! Rather than to appear in that place and grab that serpent by the scruff and cast him out before Eve could be deceived, He watched it happen like a plan falling into place!
But, don't despair, because the Lord Most High took full responsibility for His own ALLOWANCE for what He KNEW was going to happen, and that He intentionally chose to NOT guide the events and the people into any other human-imagined pathway of events, and here you are, not liking the implications!
What does that say?
Simply that YOU appear to not like it that the Lord took full responsibility for what He KNEW was going to happen, and that the events that we know transpired were therefore obviously His plan from before the world even was!
Come on! You speak of His Sovereignty, so just leave it at that! He took responsibility for it all by having His own Son take the penalty for sin upon Himself from before the foundations of this world! As glorious as that is, you seem to have a problem with it!
Sheesh!
MM
It matters not one bit what YOU think God "intended!" What matters is what actually happened!
What matters is that the Lord KNEW what was going to happen with those elements He KNEW were in that garden, and that were there because He placed the tree there, He KNEW the serpent was there, and He HEARD every word of the conversation! Rather than to appear in that place and grab that serpent by the scruff and cast him out before Eve could be deceived, He watched it happen like a plan falling into place!
But, don't despair, because the Lord Most High took full responsibility for His own ALLOWANCE for what He KNEW was going to happen, and that He intentionally chose to NOT guide the events and the people into any other human-imagined pathway of events, and here you are, not liking the implications!
What does that say?
Simply that YOU appear to not like it that the Lord took full responsibility for what He KNEW was going to happen, and that the events that we know transpired were therefore obviously His plan from before the world even was!
Come on! You speak of His Sovereignty, so just leave it at that! He took responsibility for it all by having His own Son take the penalty for sin upon Himself from before the foundations of this world! As glorious as that is, you seem to have a problem with it!
Sheesh!
MM
I never said that He controls ALL things to occur. I said that He's in total control, which means that He is in control.
If you think He ISN'T in control, then where's that verse or context? If God is not in control, then how could this possibly be true:
James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
There is no point mentioned in that verse nor that context that states when, where nor how the Lord effects the answers to prayers He knew before the world ever was. All I'm doing it pointing out that you people who claim the Lord is a reactionary to the things of this world, as opposed to what IS stated as His being PROACTIVE in relation to time, you're marking up the wrong tree! You are are claiming so much about things that you know nothing and cannot see with mere human eyes!
MM
If you think He ISN'T in control, then where's that verse or context? If God is not in control, then how could this possibly be true:
James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
There is no point mentioned in that verse nor that context that states when, where nor how the Lord effects the answers to prayers He knew before the world ever was. All I'm doing it pointing out that you people who claim the Lord is a reactionary to the things of this world, as opposed to what IS stated as His being PROACTIVE in relation to time, you're marking up the wrong tree! You are are claiming so much about things that you know nothing and cannot see with mere human eyes!
MM
No argument is good when you simplify it down to a level far below what I was actually saying. This tactic is tiring and boring. You appear to have no capacity for wanting to speak to what I have actually said. You cast your assumptions all over the place with glamorized indifference toward speaking to the points that I have made.
I'll leave you to play that game with someone who is not so experienced and knowledgeable about logical fallacies and verbal combat.
MM
I'll leave you to play that game with someone who is not so experienced and knowledgeable about logical fallacies and verbal combat.
MM
Not at all. What I have questioned the range of what has been assumed by some; all the way from inference to outright demand.
Many seem to think God is a reactionary to the events in time. I presented the actual declarations in scripture that speak to the opposite.
Are there potentials for a range of possibilities in between? Absolutely, with the main theme being that assuming anything about a realm none of us can see, that's just plain presumptuousness. I have never rested only in the middle nor on any end, but only questioned the assumptions that clearly exclude what we ARE told in scripture.
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Many seem to think God is a reactionary to the events in time. I presented the actual declarations in scripture that speak to the opposite.
Are there potentials for a range of possibilities in between? Absolutely, with the main theme being that assuming anything about a realm none of us can see, that's just plain presumptuousness. I have never rested only in the middle nor on any end, but only questioned the assumptions that clearly exclude what we ARE told in scripture.
MM
As an Israeli who was raised in strict teaching on all of what you people call the "Old Testament," I've studied Job a number of times, and am still puzzled as to what prompted you to suggest Job to me. At no point did I emphatically state my position on this topic in a way that would say there is a definitively simple answer to this very complex topic. I'm merely challenging assumptions so many Gentiles make without qualification or reasoning.
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Exactly, prayer can cause things to happen that would have never happened, but because we pray, God steps in and makes a way. The only thing we are disagreeing on is God's foreknowledge of future events that are not in his word. I believe God is working in and through all of man's choices to bring about his desire end.
More straw man arguments. I said plainly that God is in control. Period. I also pointed to the fact that there are declarations of God having set forth things from the foundations of the world. Period. I also pointed to the fact that there were people He knew from before the womb, and in the womb. If you don't believe God is Sovereign over all, then what bible do you read and study?
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More straw man arguments. I said plainly that God is in control. Period. Agreed. I also pointed to the fact that there are declarations of God having set forth things from the foundations of the world. Period. Agreed, but not all things. I also pointed to the fact that there were people He knew from before the womb, and in the womb. Scripture please...God knew Jeremiah in the womb, before he was fully formed. If you don't believe God is Sovereign over all, then what bible do you read and study? The KJV, God's holy pure, preserved word in English. Sovereign is not a word in the bible, especially Calvin's definition. Does God have all power over all creation? Yes. Does he allow things to occur? Yes. Does he exercise his power over all things? No.
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