J
JesusIsAll
Guest
And General Dynamics is heavily lobbying against beating swords into plowshares.
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And General Dynamics is heavily lobbying against beating swords into plowshares.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
There is no disagreement on this at all.
The disagreement is about who this people is.
The verse nowhere says Jews. It says "seed of Israel". This seed was proven over and over again with Scriptures to be the Jewish patriarchs, saints and prophets, Jesus and those who follow Him, be they Jew or Gentile (joint heirs).
I have a feeling that we are spinning around.
i disagree
It was never jew or gentile. It was always Israel (or as modern day people call them, jews)
A gentile could partake, but they had a special set of things they had to do to be included.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Jer 3:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the Lord, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.
Zech 8:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘It will yet be that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities.[SUP]21 [/SUP]The inhabitants of one will go to another, saying, “Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts; [SUP][p][/SUP]I will also go.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord.’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the [SUP][q][/SUP]nations will [SUP][r][/SUP]grasp the [SUP][s][/SUP]garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”
Mic 4: Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the Lord’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Many nations shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree,
And no one shall make them afraid;
For the mouth of the Lord of hosts has spoken.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For all people walk each in the name of his god,
But we will walk in the name of the Lord our God
Forever and ever.
and here is the big one:
Zech 14:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but [SUP][d][/SUP]Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. [SUP]11 [/SUP][SUP][e][/SUP]People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now this will be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. [SUP]13 [/SUP]It will come about in that day that a great panic from the Lord will [SUP][f][/SUP]fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will [SUP][g][/SUP]be lifted against the hand of another.[SUP]14 [/SUP]Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance. [SUP]15 [/SUP]So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.[SUP]17 [/SUP]And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This will be the [SUP][h][/SUP]punishment of Egypt, and the [SUP][i][/SUP]punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
J
JesusIsAll
Guest
I would like to register my objections to being on this list. While the grouping has some merit, in that the names have shown some understanding of scripture, numerous times, I find being included highly unsatisfactory.
It's a tradition to, at least, be excoriated in some way when called out so. If you could please, at least, threaten my salvation, call succumbing to what the Bible is saying doctrines of demons, which other evil Bible expositors have put forth down the generations as truths. Make it clear my predicament, versus God's special little creatures as yourself: be like a good Catholic, prophesying my Dante-esque being chewed on by the devil in the lowest circle of hell, throughout eternity, or something. Please, I can find no joy in merely being on a list, and do take offense by such slight.
Treat me with the appropriate venom, and it's not as if I'd do nothing in return. How about a custom avatar? Let me know what you think of this, and I'll shrink it for you?
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E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
it was used to keep the sheep alive, and free of predators. And safe
How many sheep (Gods true children) are being killed daily. Have been killed in the last 2000 years. and or are treated as slaves, prisoners, and outcasts?
Does not look like the rod is being used at all. or else it is very ineffective.
it wa salso used to keep sheep in line, and going the right way..
That seems to be your standard reply when challenged. The burden of proof is on you who makes the assertion that the rod of iron in context is for shepherding. ..
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
I don't know why Bride keeps pulling this "list" up but it is in the wrong context. Please read Post #649 - It is actually a very nice and sincere post from AzureAfire. Here is part of it:
Originally Posted by AzureAfire
I have been reading in the Bible Discussions Forum offline for quite sometime now. At times, it feels kind of stressful, since I have to witness the back-and-forth arguing. But I keep reading, since I do get to learn a lot from these forums, and what I learn helps solidify my faith in Christ, and at the same time, humbles me and brings me in awe of the power of our GOD and HIS Holy Spirit that indwells us True Believers. For I am not a Bible scholar, and yet HE has truly answered my prayers when I sought for HIS wisdom and discernment regarding all things, specially in the study of HIS Word.
I commend the brethren here who fight the good fight of faith, and defend the truth of GOD's a Word against the deceived, the blinded, and the false teachers, who twist Scripture in the hardness of their hearts and their vain imaginings. They are the following brethren, who I've grown to respect as I discover their love for GOD and HIS Holy Word:
- eternally-gratefull
- peacefulbeliever
- notuptome
- JesusIsAll
- Jason0047
- crossnote
- Dcontroversal
- kaylagrl
- Atwood
- john832
These brethren spoke with GODly wisdom and great love in their hearts for GOD's Word. They are not blinded by their biases, nor their hearts hardened by hardships and trials, and truly speak of GOD's truth. Their desire to reach out and painstakingly defend GOD's message, untwisted and made clear, inspires me to fight and defend our faith as well
My brethren, I hope and pray that our Holy Father GOD continue to bless all of you with HIS gifts of wisdom, faith, discernment, knowledge, and a heart of purity and love, that you may press on to defend HIS Word against the blinded and the false teachers. Do not ever mind these people who say that claim that you are not preaching HIS Word and gospel, and throwing curses at you.
The rod and the staff are often mentioned together in the Bible many times, namely in Psa 23 that Sarah has already mentioned. That proves the shepherding context.
Psalms 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
Psalms 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Zechariah 11:3-17 There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is spoiled. Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter; Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not. For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock. Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me. Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another. And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
Matthew 27:3-7 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
"Most commentators apply this prophecy to the Jews. They became cut off from the covenant, when they rejected Christ. God no longer protected them; their city was destroyed in 70 A.D."
I would add to this for the sake of clarity that God did NOT cut off the godly among the Jews!
And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
Psalms 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
Psalms 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Zechariah 11:3-17 There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is spoiled. Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter; Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not. For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock. Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me. Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another. And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
Matthew 27:3-7 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
"Most commentators apply this prophecy to the Jews. They became cut off from the covenant, when they rejected Christ. God no longer protected them; their city was destroyed in 70 A.D."
I would add to this for the sake of clarity that God did NOT cut off the godly among the Jews!
And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
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J
JesusIsAll
Guest
Oh! I thought it was criticism, having read much I can't see eye to eye with and much irrational stirring of the pot going on, as if some weird Preterist on drugs, poking everybody with a stick, etc, matters of sound Biblical foundation excoriated and trounced upon. So, if I misread that, I'm sorry! But I won't withdraw the offer for a free avatar, yet.
Thank you. I will look into it carefully and get back to it.
In the meantime, please take a look into my previous post of Zechariah 11 in which the LORD breaks the covenant with Israel and Judah along with the LORD being sold for 30 pieces of silver... even the poor of the flock are "fed for slaughter"... but Jesus being prophecized in there, we know from the New testament that "the poor of the flock" were able to renew the covenant instead of staying cut off. However, the rest is cut off and not under the covenant anymore as Zech 11 says.
H
Hoffco
Guest
To Soulweaver, is your picture of you ,in real life. If so, where do you serve? I am for women in the military. May God bless you richly in Jesus. Love Hoffco.
J
JesusIsAll
Guest
Oh! And I do recall being on the AzureAfire list and that post, quite a compliment it was, with my presence lending a bit of the rustic, motley crew adornment any group needs, to remain down to earth that some things are too good to be true... except Christ, of course!
No brother, that is just an avatar of a woman with a sword. We all serve in the army of Jesus and fall short of glory sometimes. God bless
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
ok from what I see.
1. He did not break his covenant between these two halfs. He did what he promised he would do in Lev 26, Because of their sin against him, He will have their enemies come, scatter them, and they will be slaves in foreign lands.
2. The final Sheppard did not care for Isreal. And did what he pleased. then God destroyed him. (we see in those passages I posted and other that God severely punishment the gentiles nations who treated his people bad while in their care. I think this is another point of that, although not so easily seen)
Go into chapter 12. (remember there was no chapter breaks in the origional. the thought is continuing) and we see God restoring Judah and destroying the nations who went against her. In Fact, I think this is a real good picture of Jerusalem in that day.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. [SUP]11 [/SUP]In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]12 [/SUP]And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; [SUP]13 [/SUP]the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; [SUP]14 [/SUP]all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.
again like I say, what better way to show grace, then a people who crucified you, and spent well over 2000 years in idolotry and rejecting you To come to see who they pierced as he is, And mourn in repentance, And how God shows his love for his people (the house of David) and forgives them.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
hmm. lets see.
He will SMITE the nations
Rule with a rod of Iron
He spreads the fierceness of the wrath of God.
sounds like offensive to me, gets no clearer. When did this happen (since they say it already has?)
Okay I will go through the whole of Zechariah again before I reply to your previous post, although I'd say plainly DOES say that God broke His covenant with the physical Israel (why I say this - because even the poor of the flock were "fed for slaughter" - meaning the Remnant was not spared from punishment over Israel, although they embraced Jesus).
What kaylagrl notices, that Israel prospers still, is I believe due to generational blessing over them that God would not cancel.
Blessing is not due to the Remnant because Zech 11 plainly says that even the poor of the flock would not be spared.
We do agree that they will come to full repentance sometime in the future and be restored (yes the physical Israel).
What kaylagrl notices, that Israel prospers still, is I believe due to generational blessing over them that God would not cancel.
Blessing is not due to the Remnant because Zech 11 plainly says that even the poor of the flock would not be spared.
We do agree that they will come to full repentance sometime in the future and be restored (yes the physical Israel).
rod - shebet - 1. rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, scepter, tribe; A. rod, staff; B. shaft (spear, dart); C. club (of shepherd's implement); D. truncheon, scepter (mark of authority); clan, tribe [from the picture below, you can see that the rod is more like a club)
staff - mishenah - support (of every kind); staff
You can see that the rod is quite different from the staff. The staff is slight and is used to guide the sheep - the rod is sturdier, and thicker and is used to fight off wild animals that endanger the sheep.
staff - mishenah - support (of every kind); staff
You can see that the rod is quite different from the staff. The staff is slight and is used to guide the sheep - the rod is sturdier, and thicker and is used to fight off wild animals that endanger the sheep.
Go back and actually read what the verse actually says.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
He will smite the nations with a SWORD that comes out of His mouth. He rules with the rod of iron.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
yep.
and when did he smite the nations?
And what about this passage?
Ps 2:
Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
Sound alot like the last 2000 years...
[SUP]4 [/SUP]He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
Where did he set up his king? In Heaven?? Or on Mt Zion?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]You shall break[SUP][a][/SUP] them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”
Seems prety clear to me.