God's ONE Baptism For His Body!

[turbosixx]

Lots of ways to answer this question.
- Only by shedding of blood can there be remission.
Hebrews 9:22
“And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.”

-Only by the blood of Jesus can this be accomplished once and for all.
Romans 5:12 Context
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

-The Bible explicitly states that good works don't save us (and even goes so far as to tell us why.)
Ephesians 2:9
“Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

All true.

What I'm suggesting is that we are not saved by our works, one because the bible tells us and two because there is no work or amount of works we can ever do to save ourselves. The price is more than we can pay. As you have pointed out, we are only saved by the blood of Jesus and it is a gift.
If there is nothing we can do to receive the gift, then everyone is saved. Therefore there is something we must do to receive the gift. Doing what Jesus requires of us in no way earns our salvation. We are not saved by works and we are also not saved without them.
Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

 

[turbosixx]

It is true that only those baptized were added. But that doesn't mean they were added by baptism. They were saved when they believed. Thus, they obeyed the command to be baptized.
We seem stuck on this point. So there isn't a need to continue. But I do appreciate you sharing.

I appreciate your time as well.

 

[turbosixx]

If you don't want to make errors, then stick exclusively to what the entire Bible teaches. Do not find new doctrine nor build new doctrine yourself using your assumptions as their basis. It shouldn't be that difficult to do.

All of the verses I posted about baptism show that everyone who becomes saved were baptized by God alone. Read Jhn 3:26 below. Do you see the "all come to him"? That does not include only those who spoke in tongues but everyone who has become saved.

Speaking in tongues (amongst other similar types of manifestations) comes from being filled with the Holy Ghost as opposed to being baptized by the Holy Ghost, (of course, only those who have been baptized by Him can be filled with Him, but they are two entirely different types of events). Being filled with Him is transient and used by God for the specific purpose(s) of making known what God wanted to convey; being baptized is permanent.

[Luk 1:41-42 KJV]
41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.

No, the Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit's coming upon Jesus was to make known to John that Jesus was the Son of God

[Jhn 1:33 - 34 KJV]
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Are you saying that you don't believe that Jesus was/is always God? Really? And instead, that you believe to become God, He first had to be baptized in water by John?

[Jhn 3:26 KJV]
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all [men] come to him.

May I suggest God did give the HS to select people before Jesus's sacrifice. After His sacrifice the giving of the HS for those who believe was prophesied and promised and was poured out at Pentecost.
But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

May I suggest Jn. 3:26 is not saying Jesus did the baptizing. If you will notice Jn. 4:1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),

Jesus is God and has always been God, even while on this earth. What I pointed out was that Jesus didn't do any miracles and did not start His ministry until after He was baptized. That is when we see the HS descending on Him. I suggest water and HS go together.
Consider this from Acts 19. When Paul finds out believers hadn't received the HS, why would he ever ask them "what baptism did you receive?" if the HS does the baptizing and water baptism has nothing to do with the HS.

 

[rogerg]

May I suggest God did give the HS to select people before Jesus's sacrifice. After His sacrifice the giving of the HS for those who believe was prophesied and promised and was poured out at Pentecost.

The Holy Spirit is given so that certain chosen people come to true faith and belief in Jesus as Saviour and in the gospel, not the reverse. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit so until one receives the Spirit by God's command, it is impossible to have true faith or belief.
Whether saved before or after Jesus's offering, all those chosen by God for salvation were, and had to be, first indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Being as there only one salvation, God therefore saves everyone the same way: through Christ's faith, belief comes through spiritual hearing, Christ's faith becomes imputed as a fruit of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit comes with being born again/baptized spiritually, being born again/baptized spiritually comes with/from salvation, salvation from having been chosen to such (individually) by God. Therefore, becoming saved occurs first, from which, faith/belief with all other Christian attributes accompanying it as its byproducts. While those of Pentecost had become indwelt by the Holy Spirit, what was poured out upon them were certain temporary gifts such as speaking in tongues; that is, they were gift from the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, and not the Holy Spirit as the gift.
Jesus was foreordained the Saviour from before the foundation of the world.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[1Pe 1:19-22 KJV]
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus is God and has always been God, even while on this earth. What I pointed out was that Jesus didn't do any miracles and did not start His ministry until after He was baptized. That is when we see the HS descending on Him. I suggest water and HS go together.
Consider this from Acts 19. When Paul finds out believers hadn't received the HS, why would he ever ask them "what baptism did you receive?" if the HS does the baptizing and water baptism has nothing to do with the HS.

Even though you said, "He is and has always been God", yet you nullify that and set it at naught by stating it was necessary for God (Jesus) to be baptized by John in order for God to do His miracles and to start His ministry. You can't have it both ways: But He is God and beyond question, He needed nothing outside of Himself to start and succeed in His ministry. And as the verses below so inform, water, or any other man-made baptism is a symbol but are not the true- do you see the "he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost" part? That tells us true baptism is spiritual and is only given by Christ and not by water nor by anything man-made. God's purpose was also to make clear to John that Jesus is the Son of God.

[Jhn 1:33-34 KJV]
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Turning your own argument back on you, if water baptism had caused them to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit, then why then would Peter need to also baptize them in Jesus's name? The reason is that no baptism of man has spiritual efficacy, but all are only symbols and types of the true, not the true themselves.
The reason that Paul asked them in Act 19, was to edify them; that is, just because one becomes saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit doesn't mean they immediately have complete knowledge of all things regarding the tenets of Christianity. Starting with their answer, God through Paul, taught them more about salvation.
The Holy Spirit's indwelling and presence at becoming born again occurs silently, unnoticeably. However, the manifestations of His gifts, becomes evident for all to see.
Notice in the below verses, that before their physical baptism, they spoke in tongues and magnified God. This meant that they were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit, from which, they were given the gift of speaking in tongues by the Holy Spirit. That God had sent the Holy Spirit to the gentiles also, astounded Peter and he commanded they be physically baptized, but they were indwelt first and baptized afterwards.


[Act 10:46-48 KJV]
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

 

[turbosixx]

Even though you said, "He is and has always been God", yet you nullify that and set it at naught by stating it was necessary for God (Jesus) to be baptized by John in order for God to do His miracles and to start His ministry. You can't have it both ways: But He is God and beyond question, He needed nothing outside of Himself to start and succeed in His ministry. And as the verses below so inform, water, or any other man-made baptism is a symbol but are not the true- do you see the "he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost" part? That tells us true baptism is spiritual and is only given by Christ and not by water nor by anything man-made. God's purpose was also to make clear to John that Jesus is the Son of God.

[Jhn 1:33-34 KJV]
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Turning your own argument back on you, if water baptism had caused them to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit, then why then would Peter need to also baptize them in Jesus's name? The reason is that no baptism of man has spiritual efficacy, but all are only symbols and types of the true, not the true themselves.
The reason that Paul asked them in Act 19, was to edify them; that is, just because one becomes saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit doesn't mean they immediately have complete knowledge of all things regarding the tenets of Christianity. Starting with their answer, God through Paul, taught them more about salvation.
The Holy Spirit's indwelling and presence at becoming born again occurs silently, unnoticeably. However, the manifestations of His gifts, becomes evident for all to see.
Notice in the below verses, that before their physical baptism, they spoke in tongues and magnified God. This meant that they were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit, from which, they were given the gift of speaking in tongues by the Holy Spirit. That God had sent the Holy Spirit to the gentiles also, astounded Peter and he commanded they be physically baptized, but they were indwelt first and baptized afterwards.


[Act 10:46-48 KJV]
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Thanks for your time and patience, I appreciate it. Our discussion has been challenging and enjoyable.

Sorry if I gave you the impression it was necessary for Jesus to be baptized. What I was suggesting is Jesus is our example and He did not begin His ministry until after He was baptized. He didn't need to be baptized but He said “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” His baptism had a purpose.

If you could please clarify a couple of things, I will better understand what you're trying to tell me. Is baptism in the name of Jesus water baptism? Why do you call it baptism of man? Is it from man or God?

 

[turbosixx]

The Holy Spirit is given so that certain chosen people come to true faith and belief in Jesus as Saviour and in the gospel, not the reverse. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit so until one receives the Spirit by God's command, it is impossible to have true faith or belief.
Whether saved before or after Jesus's offering, all those chosen by God for salvation were, and had to be, first indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Being as there only one salvation, God therefore saves everyone the same way: through Christ's faith, belief comes through spiritual hearing, Christ's faith becomes imputed as a fruit of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit comes with being born again/baptized spiritually, being born again/baptized spiritually comes with/from salvation, salvation from having been chosen to such (individually) by God. Therefore, becoming saved occurs first, from which, faith/belief with all other Christian attributes accompanying it as its byproducts. While those of Pentecost had become indwelt by the Holy Spirit, what was poured out upon them were certain temporary gifts such as speaking in tongues; that is, they were gift from the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, and not the Holy Spirit as the gift.
Jesus was foreordained the Saviour from before the foundation of the world.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[1Pe 1:19-22 KJV]
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I've been chewing on this. I can't wrap my head around God picking and choosing who is saved and who goes to hell. I was thinking about this passage and can't possibly see how it is not the individual who chooses to serve God or not. Could you tell me how you understand this passage/analogy. The olive tree in Romans 11:16-24

 

[rogerg]

I've been chewing on this. I can't wrap my head around God picking and choosing who is saved and who goes to hell. I was thinking about this passage and can't possibly see how it is not the individual who chooses to serve God or not. Could you tell me how you understand this passage/analogy. The olive tree in Romans 11:16-24

Regarding your comment of not being able to wrap your head around "God picking and choosing who is saved
and who goes to hell", I would phrase it differently. The way I would phrase it is that all of us deserve to be under God's wrath, no one
deserving of salvation: "no not one". So, for those to whom it is to be freely given without works or preconditions, from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God, they indeed have been blessed far above all others. However, not all can believe that it is possible for God to be that merciful and gracious. However, should they become able to, it is only a result of having become saved.
If you think about it, the only way God's grace could be possible is only if it is given in conjunction with election: God's choice of those who are to freely receive His grace, otherwise, were it to be based upon something besides election, our works would then be necessary to satisfy it, but then it wouldn't/couldn't be by grace. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that no one can be saved by their works because to have to work for salvation is to be under law, but by law comes judgment. It was precisely for that purpose Christ's sacrifice took those who are to be saved from under the law (in addition to remitting their past sin), and hence, without law being present, no judgement is possible as there is nothing to judge us or assess sin: without the law there is no sin.
The elect, when saved, have been called to serve God, but that comes as a result of salvation not to bring salvation.
The unsaved cannot/do not know the true gospel, and therefore, while they may think they're serving God, by their works, and their teaching of others likewise, they are actually serving Satan not God.

[Rom 7:8-11 KJV]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

If I correctly understand the crux of your request, it focuses particularly on verses 11:22, 23, 24.

[Rom 11:22-24 KJV]
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

I think the resolution is as follows:

For 11:22, certain people manifest a faith in Christ, but it is a transient faith produced by man's intellect, and therefore, not a true faith. A true faith is one given by the Holy Spirit and manifests itself into the heart: a renewed heart which is given to them by God through becoming born again. IOW one faith if from man's unsaved brain, the other, of the saved heart. The faith produced by unsaved man's intellect, being transient, will not endure. Consequently, in verse 11:22, we are told that if one continues in faith, it is only because that faith is from God's goodness and was given to them from salvation; the others, with the transient faith, and yet even having had a passing intellectual knowledge of Christ yet fall away, they remain under God's wrath as do all those not so chosen to salvation.
For 11:23, to not abide, is to not believe. True belief comes from the faith of Christ, which faith, is imputed to those whom He had chosen to salvation. At a time of God's choosing, those who had been so chosen to salvation, become born again and with it, Christ's faith is imputed, from which, comes true belief in Him as Saviour results from spiritually hearing the gospel. Those for whom it occurs, because it occurs, and by it occurring, have thereby been grafted back in.
For 11:24, it is saying that for those raised within the foundation of the Jewish religion (the natural branches), for those of them whom God removes the veil from their eyes through the imputing to them of the faith of Christ and all that goes with it, their adaption to and grasp of, the doctrines of Christianity are more naturally accomplished than for those not having the same kind of background.

 

[rogerg]

Thanks for your time and patience, I appreciate it. Our discussion has been challenging and enjoyable.

Sorry if I gave you the impression it was necessary for Jesus to be baptized. What I was suggesting is Jesus is our example and He did not begin His ministry until after He was baptized. He didn't need to be baptized but He said “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” His baptism had a purpose.

If you could please clarify a couple of things, I will better understand what you're trying to tell me. Is baptism in the name of Jesus water baptism? Why do you call it baptism of man? Is it from man or God?

No problem, turbosixx. I'll try to reply to you tomorrow on this.

 

[rogerg]

Thanks for your time and patience, I appreciate it. Our discussion has been challenging and enjoyable.

Sorry if I gave you the impression it was necessary for Jesus to be baptized. What I was suggesting is Jesus is our example and He did not begin His ministry until after He was baptized. He didn't need to be baptized but He said “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” His baptism had a purpose.

If you could please clarify a couple of things, I will better understand what you're trying to tell me. Is baptism in the name of Jesus water baptism? Why do you call it baptism of man? Is it from man or God?

Thank you for your gracious statement, turbosixx, and I apologize for being short with you, it was inappropriate of me.

What I meant by "baptism of man" (and probably not the best way to phrase it but the best I could come up with), was that it is not true spiritual baptism, but of man symbolizing of the true. As symbolic, even though established by God, it has no spiritual efficacy of itself. This isn't to say that we shouldn't partake in it to demonstrate the gospel message, attest that true spiritual baptism has been given to us, and to make it known to others, because we are supposed to do that, but neither are we to confuse the symbols of the true, for the true. As I perceive it, the purpose of baptism is not to obtain or lead to salvation, but at least as it was intended, a symbolic demonstration testifying that salvation had already occurred.

I think the "Let it be so for now, for thus is it fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness" statement by Jesus, meant that since John was directed by God to perform water baptism symbolizing repentance, that Jesus in conformity, consistency, and to maintain the integrity of the gospel's message, desired to partake in it too, even though both He and John knew it unnecessary.

I do think there are two different types of baptisms mentioned in the Bible: one of John unto repentance from dead works, and one unto the name of Jesus as being the Saviour. I think that both can use dipping in water as central to the event.
Please observe the two types of baptisms:

[Act 19:3-5 KJV]
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[turbosixx]

Regarding your comment of not being able to wrap your head around "God picking and choosing who is saved
and who goes to hell", I would phrase it differently. The way I would phrase it is that all of us deserve to be under God's wrath, no one
deserving of salvation: "no not one". So, for those to whom it is to be freely given without works or preconditions, from an exceedingly merciful and gracious God, they indeed have been blessed far above all others. However, not all can believe that it is possible for God to be that merciful and gracious. However, should they become able to, it is only a result of having become saved.
If you think about it, the only way God's grace could be possible is only if it is given in conjunction with election: God's choice of those who are to freely receive His grace, otherwise, were it to be based upon something besides election, our works would then be necessary to satisfy it, but then it wouldn't/couldn't be by grace. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that no one can be saved by their works because to have to work for salvation is to be under law, but by law comes judgment. It was precisely for that purpose Christ's sacrifice took those who are to be saved from under the law (in addition to remitting their past sin), and hence, without law being present, no judgement is possible as there is nothing to judge us or assess sin: without the law there is no sin.
The elect, when saved, have been called to serve God, but that comes as a result of salvation not to bring salvation.
The unsaved cannot/do not know the true gospel, and therefore, while they may think they're serving God, by their works, and their teaching of others likewise, they are actually serving Satan not God.

[Rom 7:8-11 KJV]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

If I correctly understand the crux of your request, it focuses particularly on verses 11:22, 23, 24.

[Rom 11:22-24 KJV]
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

I think the resolution is as follows:

For 11:22, certain people manifest a faith in Christ, but it is a transient faith produced by man's intellect, and therefore, not a true faith. A true faith is one given by the Holy Spirit and manifests itself into the heart: a renewed heart which is given to them by God through becoming born again. IOW one faith if from man's unsaved brain, the other, of the saved heart. The faith produced by unsaved man's intellect, being transient, will not endure. Consequently, in verse 11:22, we are told that if one continues in faith, it is only because that faith is from God's goodness and was given to them from salvation; the others, with the transient faith, and yet even having had a passing intellectual knowledge of Christ yet fall away, they remain under God's wrath as do all those not so chosen to salvation.
For 11:23, to not abide, is to not believe. True belief comes from the faith of Christ, which faith, is imputed to those whom He had chosen to salvation. At a time of God's choosing, those who had been so chosen to salvation, become born again and with it, Christ's faith is imputed, from which, comes true belief in Him as Saviour results from spiritually hearing the gospel. Those for whom it occurs, because it occurs, and by it occurring, have thereby been grafted back in.
For 11:24, it is saying that for those raised within the foundation of the Jewish religion (the natural branches), for those of them whom God removes the veil from their eyes through the imputing to them of the faith of Christ and all that goes with it, their adaption to and grasp of, the doctrines of Christianity are more naturally accomplished than for those not having the same kind of background.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree:
Who grafted the wild branches into the good olive tree?

 

[turbosixx]

Thank you for your gracious statement, turbosixx, and I apologize for being short with you, it was inappropriate of me.

I appreciate the apology, thank you. I was not upset and so glad you continued our discussion. I don't like upsetting people and I do my best to phrase things hoping I won't. It's gonna happen when we have zeal and passion for the truth. I've been short with others in the past and I'm not proud of it. I have gotten much better and don't take any of it personal. So if I do get your blood boiling, please remember that is not my intention. I didn't feel like it was your intention and that did help me to remain calm.

I think the "Let it be so for now, for thus is it fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness" statement by Jesus, meant that since John was directed by God to perform water baptism symbolizing repentance, that Jesus in conformity, consistency, and to maintain the integrity of the gospel's message, desired to partake in it too, even though both He and John knew it unnecessary.

I agree

I do think there are two different types of baptisms mentioned in the Bible: one of John unto repentance from dead works, and one unto the name of Jesus as being the Saviour. I think that both can use dipping in water as central to the event.
Please observe the two types of baptisms:

[Act 19:3-5 KJV]
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Yes, there are two and I feel that passage is the best proof.

I didn't counter your comments on this passage because I wanted clarification on how you view water baptism. Thanks and I'm getting a better picture. So I will comment now.
I'm glad you see there are two different water baptisms, not everyone does. If water baptism is merely symbolic of the spiritual baptism and these people were spiritually baptized and water (symbolically) baptized, why did Paul need to perform another symbolic baptism again? Before he would give them spiritual gifts?

 

[Cameron143]

I appreciate the apology, thank you. I was not upset and so glad you continued our discussion. I don't like upsetting people and I do my best to phrase things hoping I won't. It's gonna happen when we have zeal and passion for the truth. I've been short with others in the past and I'm not proud of it. I have gotten much better and don't take any of it personal. So if I do get your blood boiling, please remember that is not my intention. I didn't feel like it was your intention and that did help me to remain calm.


I agree


Yes, there are two and I feel that passage is the best proof.

I didn't counter your comments on this passage because I wanted clarification on how you view water baptism. Thanks and I'm getting a better picture. So I will comment now.
I'm glad you see there are two different water baptisms, not everyone does. If water baptism is merely symbolic of the spiritual baptism and these people were spiritually baptized and water (symbolically) baptized, why did Paul need to perform another symbolic baptism again? Before he would give them spiritual gifts?

How do you reconcile 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Ephesians 4:4-5?

 

[rogerg]

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree:
Who grafted the wild branches into the good olive tree?

God

 

[rogerg]

If water baptism is merely symbolic of the spiritual baptism and these people were spiritually baptized and water (symbolically) baptized, why did Paul need to perform another symbolic baptism again? Before he would give them spiritual gifts?

By definition all biblical symbols were depictions of the true, but not the true itself - that's what made them symbols - God desired they be conducted to illustrate and demonstrate different aspects of salvation, and to testify of what had already occurred to them, for our edification.
Paul was not the one who gave them spiritual gifts, God did through Paul. However, the spiritual that I believe you mentioned, wasn't in their receiving of salvation, nor of the Holy Spirit to be born again, because I think that had already happened to them, but of receiving certain temporary gifts, which, in their own way, also served as symbols.

 

[turbosixx]

How do you reconcile 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Ephesians 4:4-5?

People misunderstand 1 Cor. 12:13. Were the Corinthians water baptized when they were converted? When they read Paul's letter and see baptism are they thinking water or "spiritual baptism"
Is Paul talking about water or "spiritual baptism" here: I Cor. 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Is Paul suggesting the Israelites were water baptized or "spiritually baptized" here: 1 Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
Is Paul talking about water or "spiritual baptism" here: 1 Cor. 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

How can someone see Eph. 4 as "spiritual baptism" based off of one verse when everyone from the first conversion to the last were water baptized.

 

[turbosixx]

God

I agree God grafts them in just like we see those added on Pentecost. Help me to understand your position. You have said that God chooses who is saved and who is not. That the chosen have their faith given to them by God. I don't understand why God would graft in people who He is going to later cut off because they did not continue in His goodness having a transient faith. Shouldn't God only graft in those whom He has given true faith to and thus would never be cut off, OSAS.

 

[turbosixx]

By definition all biblical symbols were depictions of the true, but not the true itself - that's what made them symbols - God desired they be conducted to illustrate and demonstrate different aspects of salvation, and to testify of what had already occurred to them, for our edification.
Paul was not the one who gave them spiritual gifts, God did through Paul. However, the spiritual that I believe you mentioned, wasn't in their receiving of salvation, nor of the Holy Spirit to be born again, because I think that had already happened to them, but of receiving certain temporary gifts, which, in their own way, also served as symbols.

If water baptism is a depiction of the true baptism, what purpose does it serve? I hear it's an outward showing of an inward change but the bible never tells us anything close to that.

Of course God gave the spiritual gifts, but what does the bible tell us about how they are given.
Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,
For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you—
For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands,

You didn't answer why Paul baptized them again. If water baptism is only symbolic and they were already water baptized, why do it again?

 

[Cameron143]

People misunderstand 1 Cor. 12:13. Were the Corinthians water baptized when they were converted? When they read Paul's letter and see baptism are they thinking water or "spiritual baptism"
Is Paul talking about water or "spiritual baptism" here: I Cor. 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Is Paul suggesting the Israelites were water baptized or "spiritually baptized" here: 1 Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
Is Paul talking about water or "spiritual baptism" here: 1 Cor. 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

How can someone see Eph. 4 as "spiritual baptism" based off of one verse when everyone from the first conversion to the last were water baptized.

I appreciate the response. And I realize baptism is used in a variety of ways. I'm asking how it is used in these particular cases.

 

[rogerg]

I agree God grafts them in just like we see those added on Pentecost. Help me to understand your position. You have said that God chooses who is saved and who is not. That the chosen have their faith given to them by God. I don't understand why God would graft in people who He is going to later cut off because they did not continue in His goodness having a transient faith. Shouldn't God only graft in those whom He has given true faith to and thus would never be cut off, OSAS.

Not to split hairs, but the faith imputed to them is Christ's faith.

The unbelieving Jews were the ones broken off. They were branches from the creation of the tree and so were not in grafted in to begin with. As with all not given true faith but believe/trust by their own intellect and decision to do so, they will eventually wither and fall away. If they are of the chosen, either they will not be broken off, or if broken off through unbelief, yet elect, at some point, God will impute unto them Christ's faith through becoming saved/born again, just as He does to all of the elect (think Saul/Paul). Even though some of the natural branches were broken off for unbelief, if they are of the elect, God trough salvation grants to them true faith, by which, they become grafted in again. IOW, they cannot, not, be of the elect/saved, and yet remain a branch of the tree. Conversely, if they are of the elect/saved, then they cannot, not, become a branch of the tree.