Gospel Confusion...

[biblestudent78]

It absolutely essential!

-"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen." Matthew 28:19-20 NKJV

-"And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
Mark 16:15-16 NKJV

-"Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."" Acts 2:38-39 NKJV

-"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Galatians 3:27-29 NKJV

How many verses do you need before your realize that it’s a command?

The "issue" is not water baptism. The real issue is that selling 21st century Christianity must eliminate all elements of conversion. Today, conversion is nothing more than nodding your head to a 60 second pulpit prayer. No muss. No fuss. Get "saved" sitting in your air conditioned pews where God is now respondable for "saving you" because you claim He must because the path to heaven is easy and cheap and you punched your ticket. No personal commitment required. No conversion required and most importantly no obedience required. We will wrap you safely in 16th Century theology to alleviate all conceptions of obedience, conversion or accountability. God loves you just the way you are, no shining light attracting people to Jesus, because you got "saved" and who cares about anybody else. Jesus claim you must take up your cross daily and become the Good Samaritans loving example, is obviously a metaphor. He just dictated Matthew 25 for others who do not realize that salvation is freedom from sin and freedom from constraint, ethics, sacrifice or any of those "works" that must be avoided. Most importantly our 60 second salvation claim relieves of all accountability for our favorite sins of the flesh,

IMHO, water baptism is a minimal statement of saving faith. It is central to the Gospel. It is central to the formation of Christianity, It is the minimum thing you can to to seek repentance and connection to the death burial and resurrection which we are called upon to do. Bottom line, if you do not have enough faith to proclaim Jesus publically, to suffer the inconvenient and be embarrassing wet then what God are you "worshiping, the God named Luder, a Catholic Monk whose God would never expect you to do anything "inconvenient." His God that we worship would never inconvenience us, or interfere while we alone workout our Best Life.

It is interesting to me that a very broad swath of Christians will declare that without a wedding ceremony and vows of life long commitment to serve the needs of the other, no couple is actually married. Some would say, as long as we love each other we are married in our own eyes and that is just as good.

They are a metaphor for a branch of 21st Century Christianity that says God and I are bonded for eternity just because I say so. No ceremony, no public commitment, no personal commitment, just thoughts experienced once for 60 seconds out of life of 80 years. Now that is cheap salvation! Jesus paid it all to guarantee us a live of self-service, self-actualization, self indulgence, self-satisfaction and self-aggrandizement. "I gave Him 60 seconds out of an 80 yr life knowing that He owes me eternal bliss.

Baptism is for losers who don't know God does not care about anything we do so long as we claim our own salvation. Obedience is SO Old Testament.

 

[Musicmaster]

From your reference to the "singular gospel gang" I gather you are one of those who believes the that there are TWO DIFFERENT GOSPELS - one of which was taught by Peter and was meant for Gentiles while the other which Paul taught that was meant for the Gentiles. However, there is no need for different gospels since both Jews and Gentiles are saved by the same savior bearing the same message.

Clarification, Peter preached the Kingdom Gospel to Israel only, not to Gentiles.

However, yes, I agree with you. We today are under a singular gospel and only the one preached by Paul, not be Peter, who preached the necessity for water baptism for the remission of sins.

Paul said: 16 I am not ashamed of THE gospel, because it is THE power of God for salvation to EVERYONE who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek. 17 For THE gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will LIVE by faith.”…(Romans 1:16)
THE "gospel" Paul was speaking of WAS SINGULAR and that ONE gospel had sufficient power to save both Jews and Gentiles.

At that time, a group called the "Judaizers" were teaching that in addition to obeying the Messianic call to repentance and faith, new covenant believers ALSO had to adopt certain practices of Judaism in order to be saved. Paul classified what they said as a "DIFFERENT" gospel, one which was a distortion of the truth and was "really NO GOSPEL at all."

I agree with you again. The Judaizers were indeed crossing the line by mistakenly believing they had license to build upon another man's foundations. Remember what the Jerusalem council said about those Judaizers?

Acts 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

James, then, did indeed agree that those Judaizers went out from them, but did what was not commanded by James nor the others in the council. The support for this is in his determination that the Gentiles be bound to only four of the 613 items of the Mosaic Law, as you likely recall.

6I am amazed how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 WHICH IS NOT EVEN A GOSPEL Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to DISTORT the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse!…
(Galatians 1:6-7)
This is strong language meant to be taken seriously. I find little difference between the Judaizer's distorted message than the one which tells people that repenting of their sins sin and putting their faith in Jesus Christ to save them is not enough but we must go on to keep Shabbat.

The Kingdom Gospel (good news only to us who were of Israel) was still a gospel, but not to the Gentiles to whom it was not intended. To the Gentiles it was not ever intended as your gospel, but was and is another gospel that is no longer in effect today. I am Israeli and I am not under the Kingdom Gospel, but only under the Gospel of Grace preached by Paul.

The term "good news" is a reference to a Messianic prophecy in Isaiah 52:
6Therefore My people will know My name; therefore ON THAT DAY [the day Messiah appears] they will know that I am He who speaks. Here I am!” 7How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim PEACE, who bring good tidings, who proclaim SALVATION, who say to Zion, “Your God reigns!”
(Isaiah 52:6-7)
The proclamation about God's reigning refers to the manifestation of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. Israel was expecting to see Messiah's kingdom take over the nations by force but Messiah said: “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs.
21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”…
(Luke 17:19-21)
The Kingdom was there in their midst in the person of the Messiah.

The Kingdom was intended to be in place within, at most, 40 years from the time of the hearing when Jesus said this:

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 9:27
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Some have transliterated these verses into allegedly being realized when Jesus appeared with Elijah and Moses on what you Gentiles call the Mount of Transfiguration, others claim it was His resurrection. If only they would read the context to see that He was referring to His Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation. Nobody since that time have yet seen Him return in the fullness of His Power and with the Angels to defeat the enemies of Israel.

So, we agree on a number of points throughout.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

The "issue" is not water baptism. The real issue is that selling 21st century Christianity must eliminate all elements of conversion. Today, conversion is nothing more than nodding your head to a 60 second pulpit prayer. No muss. No fuss. Get "saved" sitting in your air conditioned pews where God is now respondable for "saving you" because you claim He must because the path to heaven is easy and cheap and you punched your ticket. No personal commitment required. No conversion required and most importantly no obedience required. We will wrap you safely in 16th Century theology to alleviate all conceptions of obedience, conversion or accountability. God loves you just the way you are, no shining light attracting people to Jesus, because you got "saved" and who cares about anybody else. Jesus claim you must take up your cross daily and become the Good Samaritans loving example, is obviously a metaphor. He just dictated Matthew 25 for others who do not realize that salvation is freedom from sin and freedom from constraint, ethics, sacrifice or any of those "works" that must be avoided. Most importantly our 60 second salvation claim relieves of all accountability for our favorite sins of the flesh,

IMHO, water baptism is a minimal statement of saving faith. It is central to the Gospel. It is central to the formation of Christianity, It is the minimum thing you can to to seek repentance and connection to the death burial and resurrection which we are called upon to do. Bottom line, if you do not have enough faith to proclaim Jesus publically, to suffer the inconvenient and be embarrassing wet then what God are you "worshiping, the God named Luder, a Catholic Monk whose God would never expect you to do anything "inconvenient." His God that we worship would never inconvenience us, or interfere while we alone workout our Best Life.

It is interesting to me that a very broad swath of Christians will declare that without a wedding ceremony and vows of life long commitment to serve the needs of the other, no couple is actually married. Some would say, as long as we love each other we are married in our own eyes and that is just as good.

They are a metaphor for a branch of 21st Century Christianity that says God and I are bonded for eternity just because I say so. No ceremony, no public commitment, no personal commitment, just thoughts experienced once for 60 seconds out of life of 80 years. Now that is cheap salvation! Jesus paid it all to guarantee us a live of self-service, self-actualization, self indulgence, self-satisfaction and self-aggrandizement. "I gave Him 60 seconds out of an 80 yr life knowing that He owes me eternal bliss.

Baptism is for losers who don't know God does not care about anything we do so long as we claim our own salvation. Obedience is SO Old Testament.

What are your thoughts about works-based salvation and/or retention of salvation by way of works and/or personal effort of any sort?

MM

 

[TruthDefender]

I guess that ends it, then. When we can't agree with what scripture says, then there's nothing left but personal opinion and wishful thinking, such as what characterizes much of historic and modern churchianity.

MM

I pretty much rely on Scripture, not opinions.

 

[TruthDefender]

The "issue" is not water baptism. The real issue is that selling 21st century Christianity must eliminate all elements of conversion. Today, conversion is nothing more than nodding your head to a 60 second pulpit prayer. No muss. No fuss. Get "saved" sitting in your air conditioned pews where God is now respondable for "saving you" because you claim He must because the path to heaven is easy and cheap and you punched your ticket. No personal commitment required. No conversion required and most importantly no obedience required. We will wrap you safely in 16th Century theology to alleviate all conceptions of obedience, conversion or accountability. God loves you just the way you are, no shining light attracting people to Jesus, because you got "saved" and who cares about anybody else. Jesus claim you must take up your cross daily and become the Good Samaritans loving example, is obviously a metaphor. He just dictated Matthew 25 for others who do not realize that salvation is freedom from sin and freedom from constraint, ethics, sacrifice or any of those "works" that must be avoided. Most importantly our 60 second salvation claim relieves of all accountability for our favorite sins of the flesh,

IMHO, water baptism is a minimal statement of saving faith. It is central to the Gospel. It is central to the formation of Christianity, It is the minimum thing you can to to seek repentance and connection to the death burial and resurrection which we are called upon to do. Bottom line, if you do not have enough faith to proclaim Jesus publically, to suffer the inconvenient and be embarrassing wet then what God are you "worshiping, the God named Luder, a Catholic Monk whose God would never expect you to do anything "inconvenient." His God that we worship would never inconvenience us, or interfere while we alone workout our Best Life.

It is interesting to me that a very broad swath of Christians will declare that without a wedding ceremony and vows of life long commitment to serve the needs of the other, no couple is actually married. Some would say, as long as we love each other we are married in our own eyes and that is just as good.

They are a metaphor for a branch of 21st Century Christianity that says God and I are bonded for eternity just because I say so. No ceremony, no public commitment, no personal commitment, just thoughts experienced once for 60 seconds out of life of 80 years. Now that is cheap salvation! Jesus paid it all to guarantee us a live of self-service, self-actualization, self indulgence, self-satisfaction and self-aggrandizement. "I gave Him 60 seconds out of an 80 yr life knowing that He owes me eternal bliss.

Baptism is for losers who don't know God does not care about anything we do so long as we claim our own salvation. Obedience is SO Old Testament.

Your point in all this muddled rhetoric? Opinions much with zero Scripture!

 

[legion]

You didn't read what I actually said. Water baptism WAS required for Israel. The twelve apostles ministered that requirement ONLY to Israel through Peter in Acts 2 after the ascension of Christ and after Pentecost. Peter was not the minister to the Gentiles nor to the body of Christ. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, which today is the body of Christ, of which I am a part. I agree with you that water baptism is no longer required for salvation, but at one time it was, only for Israel.

MM

Oh wow I get it.. cool I haver heard that. I knew i could learn something here.

 

[legion]

Ok, so it sounds like you’re holding onto non Scriptural views and traditions of a different doctrine.

This is why so many people have trouble understanding Scripture, because many verses just don’t fit their framework of understanding (it doesn’t fit their doctrine). Wrong foundation.

I have no trouble understanding Doctrine the entire Bible that that I can retain makes perfect sense and interlocks beautifully

 

[GWH]

You didn't read what I actually said. Water baptism WAS required for Israel. The twelve apostles ministered that requirement ONLY to Israel through Peter in Acts 2 after the ascension of Christ and after Pentecost. Peter was not the minister to the Gentiles nor to the body of Christ. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, which today is the body of Christ, of which I am a part. I agree with you that water baptism is no longer required for salvation, but at one time it was, only for Israel.

Well, physical circumcision (PC) was required for Jews, but Paul taught that they were mistaken not to understand it merely signified spiritual circumcision of the heart (SC), which is what God requires (Rom. 2:28-29, Col. 2:9-12). During the NT era water baptism (WB) was more important than PC for Christians, but it signified the same thing, called Spirit baptism (SB), which is what is required (1Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:4-5, Rom. 8:9).

 

[Musicmaster]

Oh wow I get it.. cool I haver heard that. I knew i could learn something here.

What most here in the West don't know, understand and are willing to accept is that Gentiles had to become Jews to find salvation. Paul made this abundantly clear:

Ephesians 2:11-12
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

The breaking down of that wall brought this about:

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they [Israel] stumbled that they [Israel] should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy.

For salvation to have come unto the Gentiles, that has to mean that the Gentiles didn't have salvation available to them before the fall of Israel and that middle wall of partition.

Also, many here in the West assume salvation came unto the Gentiles at the time of the cross, which also is not true. This is rejected among Gentiles here ion the West with great vehemence, possibly rooted in replacement theology and anti-Semitism. They argue against the truth at the exclusion of this:

Matthew 15:24
But he [Jesus] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I'm astounded at how many Gentiles historically, and even today, reject the clear meaning of this statement by either ignoring it or transliterating it into saying something other than what it says. Some have even tried to argue that Gentiles could not and did not become Jews:

Esther 8:17
And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

The majority of the people of that land were...Gentiles, not Jews, but many became Jews, so it is indeed a reality that Gentiles did indeed become Jews, also evidenced in the Jewish proselytes were at one time...Gentiles.

I realize this is a nut shell overview of a far more complex and in-depth study, thus easily rejected by the arm chair experts out there who are products of typical, Westernized churchianity and its Protestant-style ignorance. Even Luther himself was a deep thinker who held to beliefs that are flatly rejected today in spite of the evidence to the contrary throughout the Bible in relation to Western thinking and dogmas.

Sadly, many typically are not at all concerned with pursuing truth at the expense of what they currently believe and are therefore unteachable. Glad to see you are willing to at least dig into the scriptures for yourself.

MM

 

[BillG]

For salvation to have come unto the Gentiles, that has to mean that the Gentiles didn't have salvation available to them before the fall of Israel and that middle wall of partition.

I agree that Jesus came to preach to Isreal and not the gentiles.

can I ask based on the above.

Does the above quote mean that no Gentiles were saved until after Jesus died and rose again and Paul preached salvation came after faith in Jesus?

 

[biblestudent78]

What are your thoughts about works-based salvation and/or retention of salvation by way of works and/or personal effort of any sort?

MM

There is no such distinction between what one claims to believe (or some magic words that can be said) and what a person is. Either they are converted into an entirely new life with new priorities and are ready willing and able to pick up their cross daily or whatever they claim for "faith" is simply self-deception or the deception of somebody else. The principle feature of this so-called "faith" is that it is both cheap and uber-convenient. If is worth exactly what it cost you.

Paul on trial for his life described how he preached and what he preached. Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but I declared to those in Damascus first, and then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds consistent with repentance. Perhaps Paul was confused because repentance and performing deeds consistent with repentance is branded "False Works Based Doctrine" by millions of Protestant Christians every day since 1517.

There can be no works based salvation because salvation is the entire you not just some mental abstraction posing as "saving faith." Read Matthew 25 again and perhaps you will come to understand God is in the business of saving people not just their "souls." We will always remember the story Jesus told about the Good Samaritan. When those religious leaders that passed the wounded man by it was because of the fact he was a Samaritan they had no ability to save his "soul" thus they had not interest in his body. The Samaritan perhaps demonstrates that there is no difference between body and soul. He saved both in his act of loving kindness. Jesus reminds all who will listen that who you are inside/outside is the same undivided indivisible you. Not a Greek Soul floating around inside you that matters everything and your body nothing.

You are one integrated being. When Paul describes the resurrection, he does not say body comes forth to find its soul floating around in the either. You will come from the grave with "a new body and a new spirit, Thus one fully integrated being. One integrated whole. When Christ was resurrected, his body and spirit were one, just as we are one integrated body and spirit. One of the most heinous theologies of the past was that we torture the body in order to save someone's soul. The more we tourchered the body (because it was "evil") the more effective we were in saving the victim's "soul." Theologies and belief systems based on dualism are as old as mankind.

If you attempt to separate the body from the mind they both die. If a person has a stroke and his mind is no longer functional but he is alive, does that mean his soul left him? If so, that demonstrates the soul is just a mental function or a mental state, if not, it means we already intuitively know we are a fully integrated reality. One integrated co-dependant whole defines who we are. Together they compose our identity. When thousands heard the first gospel message of salvation, they did not ask, "what is the easiest thing we can do so our souls will be saved and we can just keep on living our best lives? The Apostles filled with the Holy Spirit did not tell them to bow their heads and make a decision of Christ. When Philip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian eunuch, the eunuch do not go home rejoicing because he heard a short prayer and said "yes" to Jesus. When Peter taught the house of Cornelius the gospel of Jesus, he did not ask them to raise their hands if Jesus had come into their hearts. When Paul blinded went into Damascus to be told what to do according to 21st Century Christianity, he was already a Christian because he was on his knees accepting Jesus. The is not what happend. When Paul was on trial for his life, he described his gospel this way:

Jesus did not come to save our minds. He came to save us mostly from ourselves.

 

[Musicmaster]

I agree that Jesus came to preach to Isreal and not the gentiles.

can I ask based on the above.

Does the above quote mean that no Gentiles were saved until after Jesus died and rose again and Paul preached salvation came after faith in Jesus?

Oh, my. Yes, Gentiles were saved but only after joining with Israel...that is, until the fall of Israel as Jesus prophesied:

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Israel, which is the known symbol for the fig tree, was cut down one year later. I assume you know the rest of the story about that.

We have no clue how many proselytes were in Israel at the time of Christ but we do have some idea as to some numbers of Jews who initially comprised the Church...given that the Church was first populated only by Jews and proselytes to Judaism until Peter made first contact with a small hand full of Gentiles, only to later go back ministering to Israel.

Hope that answered your question.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

There is no such distinction between what one claims to believe (or some magic words that can be said) and what a person is. Either they are converted into an entirely new life with new priorities and are ready willing and able to pick up their cross daily or whatever they claim for "faith" is simply self-deception or the deception of somebody else. The principle feature of this so-called "faith" is that it is both cheap and uber-convenient. If is worth exactly what it cost you.

It appears this is going in the direction of hostile territory entirely separated from scripture, so I will bid you good luck with what you have chosen to believe about faith and works and all the other items that comprise modern and historic religion and its practices.

Where I agree with you about salvation not at all being rooted in works, the other comments about faith appear to originate from extraneous departures from my understanding about scripture in relation to what you're saying.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

 

[biblestudent78]

It appears this is going in the direction of hostile territory entirely separated from scripture, so I will bid you good luck with what you have chosen to believe about faith and works and all the other items that comprise modern and historic religion and its practices.

Where I agree with you about salvation not at all being rooted in works, the other comments about faith appear to originate from extraneous departures from my understanding about scripture in relation to what you're saying.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

I note that you did not identify which of your dogmas I violated. Have you been converted? Is that the issue you do not want to engage with?

 

[biblestudent78]

Your point in all this muddled rhetoric? Opinions much with zero Scripture!

If the "scriptures" old and new do not point to the perversion of God's word for the comfort and convenience of religious practitioners then what good is it to start quoting verses? If you purposefully and willingly exceed the speed laws, quoting your the many statutes you are violating is not curative or redemptive.

 

[biblestudent78]

When I read in scripture that the Israelites had to be water baptized for the remission of their sins, that does indeed elicit the understanding that, without the remittance of sin, no sinner could be saved. So, contrary to some beliefs out there among Evangelicals, we Israelites, who (back then) were still bound under the Law as Jesus and James both showed to us, the word of water baptism was indeed a standing req1uirement at that time until the fall of Israel.

MM

I have never read anywhere that pre-Christian Israelite were "required" to be baptised in water. There was always water purification for clean hands and feet. John the Baptized not for the remission of sins but for repentance. Very strange perspective.. Got and OT scripture validating your claim?

 

[legion]

What most here in the West don't know, understand and are willing to accept is that Gentiles had to become Jews to find salvation. Paul made this abundantly clear:

Ephesians 2:11-12
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

The breaking down of that wall brought this about:

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they [Israel] stumbled that they [Israel] should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy.

For salvation to have come unto the Gentiles, that has to mean that the Gentiles didn't have salvation available to them before the fall of Israel and that middle wall of partition.

Also, many here in the West assume salvation came unto the Gentiles at the time of the cross, which also is not true. This is rejected among Gentiles here ion the West with great vehemence, possibly rooted in replacement theology and anti-Semitism. They argue against the truth at the exclusion of this:

Matthew 15:24
But he [Jesus] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I'm astounded at how many Gentiles historically, and even today, reject the clear meaning of this statement by either ignoring it or transliterating it into saying something other than what it says. Some have even tried to argue that Gentiles could not and did not become Jews:

Esther 8:17
And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

The majority of the people of that land were...Gentiles, not Jews, but many became Jews, so it is indeed a reality that Gentiles did indeed become Jews, also evidenced in the Jewish proselytes were at one time...Gentiles.

I realize this is a nut shell overview of a far more complex and in-depth study, thus easily rejected by the arm chair experts out there who are products of typical, Westernized churchianity and its Protestant-style ignorance. Even Luther himself was a deep thinker who held to beliefs that are flatly rejected today in spite of the evidence to the contrary throughout the Bible in relation to Western thinking and dogmas.

Sadly, many typically are not at all concerned with pursuing truth at the expense of what they currently believe and are therefore unteachable. Glad to see you are willing to at least dig into the scriptures for yourself.

MM

So if Jesus is the only way to heaven how was salvation achieved in the Old Testament seems like a simple question but I don't think it has a simple answer

 

[Inquisitor]

Matthew 15:24
But he [Jesus] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They just don't get it.

Nor do they understand that the Gentiles were grafted into Christ at a later stage.

Most are taught that they are under grace and obedience to the law for salvation.

Nearly all do not accept the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit, nor the power of the Holy Spirit.

They have AI they could use for research but for some reason they ignore AI.

Absolutely baffling.

 

[Inquisitor]

So if Jesus is the only way to heaven how was salvation achieved in the Old Testament seems like a simple question but I don't think it has a simple answer

Let AI have a go at answering your question.


Saved by faith in God’s promise (not by works of the law):

• Genesis 15:6 — “And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”
• Habakkuk 2:4 — “...the just shall live by his faith.”

Not justified by the law:

• Psalm 143:2 — “...in thy sight shall no man living be justified.”

God Himself is the Savior:

• Isaiah 43:11 — “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”
• Isaiah 45:21–22 — “...a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth...”

Salvation connected to the promised Redeemer (foretold beforehand):

• Genesis 3:15 — promise of the seed who would bruise the serpent’s head
• Genesis 22:8,14 — “God will provide himself a lamb...”
• Isaiah 53:5–6 — “...with his stripes we are healed... the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

Faith counted as righteousness apart from works (applied to O.T. saints):

• Romans 4:1–8 — Abraham justified by faith; David speaks of blessedness “unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works”

They trusted in what was to come (not yet revealed fully):

• Hebrews 11:13 — “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off...”
• Hebrews 11:39–40 — “...having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us...”

Christ’s sacrifice applied to them (retroactively):

• Romans 3:25 — “...for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God”
• Hebrews 9:15 — “...for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament...”

One name, revealed later:

• Acts 4:12 — “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

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Summary from Scripture:
They were saved by grace through faith in God, trusting His promise of salvation—though the full revelation of that salvation in Jesus Christ had not yet been made known. Their faith looked forward; ours looks back to the same Savior.

 

[Mem]

The (free) gift of righteousness (Ro 5:17) hasn't been earned by anyone except the (only) One that possesses it, and it is all His to dole out as He sees fit.