Grace through faith AND the law dont mix?

[eternally-gratefull]

Is the WORK OF JESUS good?

Mal. 3:1-4 confirms that JESUS comes to restore Levitical sacrifice.

So do you now stand opposed to this good work which Jesus comes to restore?

Yikes!

You wrote: "...It returns ONLY because Israel still rejects her messiah, and is still in sin.. "

My response: Where does Scripture say that Levitical sacrifices return ONLY because Israel still rejects the Messiah?

You haven't justified your position...

You wrote: "Gal 3 refutes what you wrote. So nice try.."

My response: To the contrary, you just ignored Paul's usage of "emunah"!

I'll bring forth (yet again) the argument you have refused to directly address:

The same Paul who wrote Gal. 3, said we LIVE by faith (Gr. "pistis", Gal. 3:11) which equates to faithfulness (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4, which Paul was quoting).

AND, what is this way of "emunah" by which Paul says we live? TORAH! (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138 for confirming of the Tanach's conception of "emunah").

Now YOU have another issue! Paul says we live by "emunah", which refers to FAITHFUL Torah-obedience...yet you evidently oppose faithful Torah-obedience?

Please address this Pauline usage of "emunah" from Gal. 3, rather than providing the "nice try" non-answer.

You wrote: "The law can not tell us, or stop us from sin, it was not intended that way, It can ONLY tell us we are sinners and in need of a savior."

My response: Now I see your incorrect assumption which has led you astray....

The law ALSO defines sin (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4), and we should not sin (thus we should obey Torah).

So, should you sin or not?

If no, then you should OBEY Torah (according to Paul, as I've shown).

If yes, then you've got problems!

Will you address these issues I've sought to bring forth?

blessings...
BibleGuy

I did address them,

Mal 3 says the temple is there. It does not say anything else. It does not say God forced them, or told them to sacrifice..

Can you please clean up your responses.. It is a gobbled up mess..

 

[gb9]

The reason you refuse to answer my Scripturally-motivated reasoning is because it disconfirms your unscriptural position.

And why do you persist in seeking to persuade others of your position, yet you say that such efforts are useless and unprofitable?

That's VERY inconsistent...

best...
BibleGuy

the reasons he , I and others are not going to get dragged into yet another law / works vs. grace debate are these: Paul said not to ( Titus 3 9-11 ).
we are tired of it, has been going on for months

you appear to be Hebrew roots movement, calming the old covenant is still is effect ( it is not, and also was for Israel only, not the gentiles see the meeting the Apostles had in Acts). these are the main reasons. good day, and wake up from your Hebrew roots and accept Christ as Lord and Savior, not Him as Lord, and torah as savior.

 

[Grace777x70]

the reasons he , I and others are not going to get dragged into yet another law / works vs. grace debate are these: Paul said not to ( Titus 3 9-11 ).
we are tired of it, has been going on for months

you appear to be Hebrew roots movement, calming the old covenant is still is effect ( it is not, and also was for Israel only, not the gentiles see the meeting the Apostles had in Acts). these are the main reasons. good day, and wake up from your Hebrew roots and accept Christ as Lord and Savior, not Him as Lord, and torah as savior.

Amen...well said...trying to keep the law when Jesus set us free from it is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord. Romans 7:1-6

 

[Grandpa]

Hello Grandpa,

Again, you have REFUSED to answer the question which disconfirms your position.

I trusted you would answer...but instead...you ignored the question...you claim my interpretation is "out of whack" (but you give no evidence)...and you refuse to engage the Scriptures I've already brought forth to support my position (and which disconfirm your position)...and then you move on to other Scriptures!

Yikes! This is NOT how diligent truth-seekers seek truth!

You wrote: "Is that like faithless works of the flesh?"

My response: Well...I'm not sure I'd put it that way, because the flesh can NOT obey Torah (Rom. 8:7), whereas the Spirit (by contrast) leads us to obey Torah (Rom. 8:9).

So again, Rom. 8:7,9 (as I've just shown) confirms my position, and disconfirms yours...will you address this? Or will you ignore it (like the other issues you continue to ignore) ?

And again, you quote Paul (Gal. 3:11), where Paul equates faith (Gr. "pistis) with faithfulness (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4, which Paul was directly quoting). AND, what is this way of "emunah" by which we should be living? TORAH! See "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138 for proof the "emunah" is Torah-OBEDIENT (not Torah-DISOBEDIENT)!

Will you address this issue? Or ignore it like the many others you are ignoring?

And you again quote Paul: "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

My response: But what is SIN? Torah-disobedience! (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).

And Paul says we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).

Thus, Paul says we should NOT disobey Torah.

Thus, Paul says we should OBEY Torah.

So again, I'll set forth the argument you REFUSE to answer (and which comes STRAIGHT out of Paul's letter to the Romans):

1. Paul said we should not sin (Rom. 6:15)
2. Paul said sin in Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul said we should not disobey Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul said we should obey Torah (from 3).

SO AGAIN! I'll ask you! Do reject 1? 2? 3? or 4?

Please answer, and learn from the answer!

I now hang you upon the horns of this dilemma.

Reject 1, 2, 3, or 4, and you have rejected Scripture (or its logical consequences).
Accept 1, 2, 3, and 4, and then you must agree that we should obey Torah!

Which do you choose?

blessings...
BibleGuy

Your interpretations are out of whack. Way out of whack.

But you are a worker of the law so you have no choice.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Galatians 3:11-12
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


You can't try to work at Torah and pretend it is faith or that it is spiritual. Because its not. Our work at the law does not cause our righteousness nor does it cause our sinlessness or perfection.

Galatians 3:2-3

[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Are you so foolish BibleGuy? Do you like to pretend others are as foolish as you are?

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

How can you attempt to place yourself back under the law, under Torah, and assume this will cause your sinlessness? Its silly foolishness to think that.


So should we play your silly foolish game? We'll have to define what Paul actually says and not what you are wanting him to say.

Paul says that whatever is not of faith is sin.
Paul says that the law is not of faith.
Therefore, those who attempt to follow the law are not following faith but instead are following their own understanding and sin.

Romans 9:31-32

[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


I already posted these verses but you attempted to twist and juggle them with your foolishness.


Will your Torah obedience cause your perfection? Will your Torah obedience cause your justification? Will your Torah obedience cause God to be pleased with you?

No, no and no. Christ through the Holy Spirit causes your perfection. Christ through the Holy Spirit causes your justification. Faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit will cause God to be pleased with you.


The choice is before you. Your works at the law, your supposed "obedience" to Torah, or Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[tanakh]

And the dragon was wroth with the Woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 12:17

 

[BibleGuy]

I did address them,

Mal 3 says the temple is there. It does not say anything else. It does not say God forced them, or told them to sacrifice..

Can you please clean up your responses.. It is a gobbled up mess..

Hi eternally-gratefull!

Which responses confused you?

Mal. 3:1-4 has Jesus RESTORING Levitical sacrifices so that they will be pleasing to YHVH as in the days of old, as in former years (Mal. 3:4).

So, we should NOT oppose restoration of Levitical Torah....because Jesus comes to RESTORE that very Torah!

Likewise, Jer. 33 guarantees restoration of Levitical Torah as a component of the forthcoming greater fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (Jer. 33:19-22).

So, we DARE NOT oppose restoration of Levitical Torah, when the prophets guarantee its future forthcoming restoration.

Right?

Best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

the reasons he , I and others are not going to get dragged into yet another law / works vs. grace debate are these: Paul said not to ( Titus 3 9-11 ).
we are tired of it, has been going on for months

you appear to be Hebrew roots movement, calming the old covenant is still is effect ( it is not, and also was for Israel only, not the gentiles see the meeting the Apostles had in Acts). these are the main reasons. good day, and wake up from your Hebrew roots and accept Christ as Lord and Savior, not Him as Lord, and torah as savior.

Hi gb9!

Thanks for writing.

You wrote: "the reasons he , I and others are not going to get dragged into yet another law / works vs. grace debate are these: Paul said not to ( Titus 3 9-11 )."

My response: Paul said we should KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19). Where are the commands found? The written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

Let's not quote Titus out of context as an excuse to disregard this plainly evident Scriptural consideration from 1 Cor. 7:19.

You wrote: "you appear to be Hebrew roots movement..."

My response: I am "BIBLE MOVEMENT"! Let's actually do what the Bible actually says we should actually do!

You wrote: "calming the old covenant is still is effect ( it is not, and also was for Israel only, not the gentiles see the meeting the Apostles had in Acts)."

My response: No. Heb. 8:13 says the Old Covenant was READY (Gr. "engoos") to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Hebrews.

And, the Old Covenant IS for Israel...and YOU partake in this covenant (Eph. 2:12), in which TORAH (Jer. 31:33) is written upon your heart. So let's obey the Torah of this covenant in which we participate!

And, Ac. 15 never says that Gentiles should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah. Rather, it says that circumcision and Torah-obedience are NOT required for recognition of Gentiles as having been saved by grace.

You wrote: "wake up from your Hebrew roots and accept Christ as Lord and Savior, not Him as Lord, and torah as savior."

My response: To the contrary, RETURN to YHVH (Dt. 30:1-8) just as Moses said you would, in 100% obedience to all Torah.

And, why suppose Christ is not my Lord and Saviour?

Why assume Christ is somehow contrary to the Torah he commanded?

Didn't He send forth TORAH-TEACHERS (Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-obedient Torah-teaching ministry?

So why should we oppose the very Torah which our Messiah expects us to obey?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Amen...well said...trying to keep the law when Jesus set us free from it is committing spiritual adultery on our Lord. Romans 7:1-6

To the contrary, spiritual adultery (Heb. "zanah", Ex. 34:15-16) is walking AWAY from YHVH and following other gods and their evil ways.

So, let's not commit spiritual adultery, but let us rather RETURN to YHVH (as Moses GUARANTEED that we will, Dt. 30:1-8), in obedience to Torah, just as Moses prophesied.

Paul said we should KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19), not pretend they are spiritual adultery!

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Your interpretations are out of whack. Way out of whack.

But you are a worker of the law so you have no choice.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Galatians 3:11-12
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


You can't try to work at Torah and pretend it is faith or that it is spiritual. Because its not. Our work at the law does not cause our righteousness nor does it cause our sinlessness or perfection.

Galatians 3:2-3

[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Are you so foolish BibleGuy? Do you like to pretend others are as foolish as you are?

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

How can you attempt to place yourself back under the law, under Torah, and assume this will cause your sinlessness? Its silly foolishness to think that.


So should we play your silly foolish game? We'll have to define what Paul actually says and not what you are wanting him to say.

Paul says that whatever is not of faith is sin.
Paul says that the law is not of faith.
Therefore, those who attempt to follow the law are not following faith but instead are following their own understanding and sin.

Romans 9:31-32

[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


I already posted these verses but you attempted to twist and juggle them with your foolishness.


Will your Torah obedience cause your perfection? Will your Torah obedience cause your justification? Will your Torah obedience cause God to be pleased with you?

No, no and no. Christ through the Holy Spirit causes your perfection. Christ through the Holy Spirit causes your justification. Faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit will cause God to be pleased with you.


The choice is before you. Your works at the law, your supposed "obedience" to Torah, or Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Hi Grandpa,

You continue to refuse to answer my question.

Do you reject 1? 2? 3? or 4? If you accept these, then you MUST agree that we should obey Torah!

So, why do you continue to refuse to answer?

You wrote: "But you are a worker of the law so you have no choice."

My response: Faith without works is dead. So of course we should do WORKS of obedience to God! Is that really too much to ask?

You wrote: "You can't try to work at Torah and pretend it is faith or that it is spiritual. Because its not."

My response: No. Paul said the Torah IS SPIRITUAL (Rom. 7:14).

And, you have continued to REFUSE to answer the implications of Paul's usage of "emunah" from Hab. 2:4, as I've previously noted. Why do you continue to refuse to answer?

You wrote: "How can you attempt to place yourself back under the law, under Torah, and assume this will cause your sinlessness? Its silly foolishness to think that."

My response: Why assume I suppose that faithful Torah-obedience "will cause my sinlessness"? I never said that. That's not my position. Make sure you understand my position before you criticize it!

You wrote: "Therefore, those who attempt to follow the law are not following faith but instead are following their own understanding and sin."

My response: Then Paul was just joking when he said we should keep God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19)? Of course he's not joking! Paul said we should KEEP God's commands! Where are they found? TORAH (1 Ki. 2:3).

You wrote: "I already posted these verses but you attempted to twist and juggle them with your foolishness."

My response: To the contrary, I posted Pauline Scripture which disconfirms your incorrect interpretation of Pauline Scripture, and you've REFUSED to directly address the points I've raised. Thus, you've not defended your position against the Scriptural criticism I've raised against it.

You wrote: "Will your Torah obedience cause your perfection?"

My response: Read Mt. 5:48, and do it!

Here's why: Deuteronomy 18:13 shows that people should be blameless/complete/perfect (Heb. “tamim”, LXX “teleios”). Yeshua (Jesus) also explicitly affirms that people should be perfect (Gr. “teleios”, Mt. 5:48). People who are “tamim” walk in obedience to the Torah (Ps. 19:7; Ps. 119:1). It follows that Yeshua accepts that Christians should walk in obedience to the Torah.

That's what Jesus says about being "perfect"...so please do as our Messiah commands.

You wrote: "Will your Torah obedience cause your justification?"

My response: Of course we are NOT justified by faithless Torah-obedience. That's Paul's purpose in critiquing the Galatians (Gal. 5:4-5).

But, that SAME PAUL said that those who obey Torah will be justified (Rom. 2:13).

Why? Because proper Torah-obedience is FAITHFUL (not faithless) Torah-obedience. That's WHY Paul applies the Torah-obedient Dt. 30:14 passage to YOU in Rom. 10:8!

Thus, faithful Torah-obedience IS the word of faith which Paul preached (according to Paul, Rom. 10:8, citing Dt. 30:14 favorably).

You wrote: "Will your Torah obedience cause God to be pleased with you?"

My response: We are pleasing to God by faith. AND, we who are of faith properly seek to grow in faithful OBEDIENCE (not opposition or ignorance) to the Torah (Jer. 31:33) of the covenants (Eph. 2:12) in which we participate.

You wrote: "Christ through the Holy Spirit causes your perfection. Christ through the Holy Spirit causes your justification. Faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit will cause God to be pleased with you."

My response: AND, that same HOLY SPIRIT testifies that TORAH is to be written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-16), not ignored or opposed as if it no longer applies.

You wrote: "The choice is before you. Your works at the law, your supposed "obedience" to Torah, or Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

My response: Alas, my friend...you have set forth a false dichotomy.

Christ says Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28).

Christ says our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching determine our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

Christ says that those who work Torah-lessness (lawlessness, Gr. "anomia", Mt. 7:21-23) will be cast away.

Christ says the greater and lesser Torah portions should be obeyed (Mt. 23:23).

Christ sends forth Torah-Teachers (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-teaching Torah-upholding ministry.

Christ's disciples properly IMITATE this walk of Torah-obedient faith in Him (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn.2:6).

Christ APPLIES Dt. 6 to you (Mt. 22:37).

Why would you oppose the Torah which our Messiah repeatedly instructs and teaches and upholds as proper for our OBEDIENCE?

Please defend your position against these Scriptural counter-arguments, or else revise your position to account for them properly.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[mcubed]

I can only keep the law, live righteous by faith. Keeping His Law, simply living according to G-d’s standard of righteousness, and do my own thing and by nature I’m sorry I am not a very righteous person by nature al all (great sinner by nature but no righteousness) … I know when I am walking in G-d’s favor and I am not. It is my behavior, choices, obedience, and heart. But there is a very big difference when I am walking with Him in this life and when I am not. And choosing to be close to Him is just always better! I have NO DOUBT when I die I will move home and be with Him, no matter what I do/don’t do, but life estranged because of my making sucks. Now, His grace different story. It is abounding to me at all times!!! It is by His grace when I choose to screw my life up not have a relationship with Him He comes in and says Mae that is enough. And recuses me, brings me back and we walk again in the cool of the day. His grace is ever sufficient and I wonder what I could have been thinking. I love His law it is sweeter than honey like David said. See I am two different people. Not Sybil like. But there is a me with G-d, then there is a me without Him. If someone can have peace beyond understanding, joy that fills your soul without Him, my hat is off to ya’. I am not that gal’. his grace keeps me in the palm of His hand at all times, His law (keeping by faith the only way I can) brings me the fulfillment of His promises.

 

[jaybird88]

does anyone worry that the grace doctrine will turn into "do what you will"?

anyone know what "do what you will" refers to and what its specifically directed against?

 

[TMS]

Hi BibleGuy
You must be sick of replying over and over to much the same stuff.
Let everyone be fully convinced in their own minds about this ...
i like to look at it from a distance or try to see the big pitcher and for me this is what i see...(we all see things differently)

God is Love = Mercy, grace, forgiveness, justice and laws that teach the principles of love. Love also give us the freedom to choose to obey the principles of love or to SIN. Sin = transgression of the law.

When Mankind sinned the penalty was death (Eternal death).
What could God do? With the whole universe watching and Satan ready to accuse God???

To Let Adam and Eve die would be just and right, But God loved them and wanted to forgive them but that would not have been following his own laws (unjust).
The thing God Hated the most (sin) was in the hearts of His loved creation.

JUSTICE OR MERCY - God choose a plan that could serve both. Praise Gods wisdom.


Justice in that we have our sins paid for in full through the death of Christ
Mercy in that we have a second chance because our debt is paid in full through Christ

Do we than make void the law? No. But do we try to save ourselves? no.

 

[TMS]

My study of the old and New Testament shows me that the sacrificial services where given to show us what is going on in Heaven. (the plan of salvation).
All things were said or done for a purpose.
Eg, Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Satan would bruise Jesus’ heal and Jesus would bruise Satan’s head.

God hasn’t changed and God made no mistake with the covenant He made with Israel. The Old covenant failed because the people failed to keep their side of the deal (covenant), But the new covenant is allowing God to write His laws on our hearts and minds which only fails for the people that reject Gods presence.

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

2 sons = 2 covenants. Which things are an allegory = symbol, metaphor, parable.
Agar = the bond woman, son born of flesh – old covenant and the laws and Earthly Jerusalem.
= Bondage
Sarah = The free woman, children of promise – new covenant, born after the spirit, Heavenly Jerusalem, free from bondage.
= Promise
Abraham wanted a son (covenant), and he tried to bring about a son in his own efforts and had one through Agar. Own works = bondage.
Than Abraham realised that he needed to wait on God and trust in Gods power and in time God gave him a son through Sarah. Gods works = Promised gift.
We can try and secure our own salvation through works and we are a child of bondage, but if we wait on Gods power and trust in His righteousness to save us we are a Child of Faith.

The Law of Love Is still important we just need to allow God to write it on our hearts so it become natural to obey not a duty.

 

[TMS]

When Jesus died on the Cross the veil in the temple was ripped from top to bottom and that could not have been done by a human. The material was so thick and strong it must have been super natural and this meant something important. ?????
Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb_10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
I would find it offensive if I paid your debt and then you continued to make payments to the bank. Or you say I just want to pay money back to the bank so that I can remember what you did. Can you fix the problem? Will you be like Abraham and try to make the promise happen in your own efforts. Try to pay for a promised gift.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Sin = death
Blood is the result of death
Therefore there is no remission without the shedding of blood.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. (heavenly)
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Heb 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Act 20:35 It is more blessed to give than to receive.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
I don’t read or see God telling me in the new testament that I have a duty to sacrifice Animals or to keep the pass over but I do hear Him saying that a transformed heart and a heart that loves to do good and kind service is what He loves.
If I believe I’m a child of God I should act like a child of God “And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure”. Not to be Saved but because they are a child of God and have been transformed by the presence of God.

 

[Grandpa]

Hi Grandpa,

You continue to refuse to answer my question.

Do you reject 1? 2? 3? or 4? If you accept these, then you MUST agree that we should obey Torah!

So, why do you continue to refuse to answer?

You wrote: "But you are a worker of the law so you have no choice."

My response: Faith without works is dead. So of course we should do WORKS of obedience to God! Is that really too much to ask?

You wrote: "You can't try to work at Torah and pretend it is faith or that it is spiritual. Because its not."

My response: No. Paul said the Torah IS SPIRITUAL (Rom. 7:14).

And, you have continued to REFUSE to answer the implications of Paul's usage of "emunah" from Hab. 2:4, as I've previously noted. Why do you continue to refuse to answer?

You wrote: "How can you attempt to place yourself back under the law, under Torah, and assume this will cause your sinlessness? Its silly foolishness to think that."

My response: Why assume I suppose that faithful Torah-obedience "will cause my sinlessness"? I never said that. That's not my position. Make sure you understand my position before you criticize it!

You wrote: "Therefore, those who attempt to follow the law are not following faith but instead are following their own understanding and sin."

My response: Then Paul was just joking when he said we should keep God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19)? Of course he's not joking! Paul said we should KEEP God's commands! Where are they found? TORAH (1 Ki. 2:3).

You wrote: "I already posted these verses but you attempted to twist and juggle them with your foolishness."

My response: To the contrary, I posted Pauline Scripture which disconfirms your incorrect interpretation of Pauline Scripture, and you've REFUSED to directly address the points I've raised. Thus, you've not defended your position against the Scriptural criticism I've raised against it.

You wrote: "Will your Torah obedience cause your perfection?"

My response: Read Mt. 5:48, and do it!

Here's why: Deuteronomy 18:13 shows that people should be blameless/complete/perfect (Heb. “tamim”, LXX “teleios”). Yeshua (Jesus) also explicitly affirms that people should be perfect (Gr. “teleios”, Mt. 5:48). People who are “tamim” walk in obedience to the Torah (Ps. 19:7; Ps. 119:1). It follows that Yeshua accepts that Christians should walk in obedience to the Torah.

That's what Jesus says about being "perfect"...so please do as our Messiah commands.

You wrote: "Will your Torah obedience cause your justification?"

My response: Of course we are NOT justified by faithless Torah-obedience. That's Paul's purpose in critiquing the Galatians (Gal. 5:4-5).

But, that SAME PAUL said that those who obey Torah will be justified (Rom. 2:13).

Why? Because proper Torah-obedience is FAITHFUL (not faithless) Torah-obedience. That's WHY Paul applies the Torah-obedient Dt. 30:14 passage to YOU in Rom. 10:8!

Thus, faithful Torah-obedience IS the word of faith which Paul preached (according to Paul, Rom. 10:8, citing Dt. 30:14 favorably).

You wrote: "Will your Torah obedience cause God to be pleased with you?"

My response: We are pleasing to God by faith. AND, we who are of faith properly seek to grow in faithful OBEDIENCE (not opposition or ignorance) to the Torah (Jer. 31:33) of the covenants (Eph. 2:12) in which we participate.

You wrote: "Christ through the Holy Spirit causes your perfection. Christ through the Holy Spirit causes your justification. Faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit will cause God to be pleased with you."

My response: AND, that same HOLY SPIRIT testifies that TORAH is to be written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-16), not ignored or opposed as if it no longer applies.

You wrote: "The choice is before you. Your works at the law, your supposed "obedience" to Torah, or Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

My response: Alas, my friend...you have set forth a false dichotomy.

Christ says Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28).

Christ says our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching determine our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

Christ says that those who work Torah-lessness (lawlessness, Gr. "anomia", Mt. 7:21-23) will be cast away.

Christ says the greater and lesser Torah portions should be obeyed (Mt. 23:23).

Christ sends forth Torah-Teachers (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-teaching Torah-upholding ministry.

Christ's disciples properly IMITATE this walk of Torah-obedient faith in Him (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn.2:6).

Christ APPLIES Dt. 6 to you (Mt. 22:37).

Why would you oppose the Torah which our Messiah repeatedly instructs and teaches and upholds as proper for our OBEDIENCE?

Please defend your position against these Scriptural counter-arguments, or else revise your position to account for them properly.

best...
BibleGuy

Galatians 3:24-25
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We're not under the law? I thought you were saying we are always supposed to be working at Torah?

Either you don't know what you are talking about or Paul doesn't. Tough choice here.

2 Corinthians 3:7-8

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Ministration of death written on stones? Why would Paul call Torah the ministration of death?

Ministration of the Spirit? What is that? How come Paul didn't say his work at Torah obedience is the most glorious thing?

Galatians 3:2-3

[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Did you start in the ministration of the Spirit by your Torah obedience? You are foolish thinking that your work and understanding at Torah obedience is real obedience to God.

There's that Spirit again. I wonder what that is all about. What does my understanding and work at Torah have to do with this Spirit?

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

So if I place myself back under law and attempt to work at Torah obedience sin will have dominion over me? I don't think I want that.

It seems that those who follow after the law of righteousness cannot attain that righteousness. Weird. I wonder why the people who think their work at Torah obedience is the Way that the Lord Jesus Christ established? I suppose if you think that, the Lord really only saved bulls and goats. That's a pretty shallow view of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. In my opinion.

I wonder if people who work at Torah obedience maybe are a little confused....

Who can save me from my own work and attempted obedience to this Perfect Law?

Do you think those who practice lawlessness are the ones that sin has dominion over or the ones that sin doesn't have dominion over? If a person tries to obey the law of righteousness but doesn't attain that righteousness does that make that person obedient or not obedient?

There has to be a better Way.

 

[Budman]

does anyone worry that the grace doctrine will turn into "do what you will"?

anyone know what "do what you will" refers to and what its specifically directed against?

Crowley-ism?

If that's what you mean, don't worry. Paul settled the matter:

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" (Romans 6:1-2)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

does anyone worry that the grace doctrine will turn into "do what you will"?

anyone know what "do what you will" refers to and what its specifically directed against?

Jude called it licentiousness. And said these people were condemned long ago.

It is not grace alone.. through faith alone..

 

[BibleGuy]

When Jesus died on the Cross the veil in the temple was ripped from top to bottom and that could not have been done by a human. The material was so thick and strong it must have been super natural and this meant something important. ?????
Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb_10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
I would find it offensive if I paid your debt and then you continued to make payments to the bank. Or you say I just want to pay money back to the bank so that I can remember what you did. Can you fix the problem? Will you be like Abraham and try to make the promise happen in your own efforts. Try to pay for a promised gift.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Sin = death
Blood is the result of death
Therefore there is no remission without the shedding of blood.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. (heavenly)
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Heb 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Act 20:35 It is more blessed to give than to receive.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
I don’t read or see God telling me in the new testament that I have a duty to sacrifice Animals or to keep the pass over but I do hear Him saying that a transformed heart and a heart that loves to do good and kind service is what He loves.
If I believe I’m a child of God I should act like a child of God “And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure”. Not to be Saved but because they are a child of God and have been transformed by the presence of God.

Hello TMS,

Lot's of good Scripture...thank you!

You wrote: "I don’t read or see God telling me in the new testament that I have a duty to sacrifice Animals or to keep the pass over..."

My response: Pesach is explicitly commanded in 1 Cor. 5:8.

And, why RESTRICT yourself to the NT?

Remember 2 Ti. 3:16? ALL Scripture should correct and train our behavior.

The Prophets are NOT abolished (Mt. 5:17).

And what do the prophets guarantee? RESTORATION of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah!

In fact, Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices so that they will again be pleasing to YHVH as in the days of old as in former years (Mal. 3:1-4).

Again, Jesus comes to REBUILD the temple! (Zec. 6 and Zec. 8). Guess what will happen in the temple? Levitical Sacrifices!

Please do not oppose this Levitical restoration purpose of our Messiah!

Moreover, the Prophets REPEATEDLY affirm the future restoration of Levitical Torah (Dt. 30; Zec. 14; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66; Jer. 33). Peter and John concur.

Do you stand opposed to the prophets?


Remember, many priests became believers...BUT THEY WERE STILL PRIESTS! (Ac. 6:7). Sacrifices continued, and rightly so.

The 1st century believers UNDERSTOOD that zeal for Torah (including Levitical Torah!) is good. (Ac. 21:20)

The Christian establishment has been (sadly) corrupted by an anti-Torah bias for a good 1700 years (thank you very much Constantine...). The Catholics have perpetuated this bias...and the Protestants never fully reformed against it. Thus, the need for further restoration continues! (Ac. 3:21)

Did Paul oppose Levitical Torah? Quite the contrary! Paul participated in Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial vow-making Torah (Ac. 21) for the purpose of proving he walked orderly in obedience to Torah, and for the purpose of REFUTING his critics who falsely alleged that he was anti-Torah.

We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9). Thus, we should NOT oppose Levitical Torah, nor should we pretend that the moedim are no longer applicable in any way.

So I must ask again: Do you oppose the prophets which guarantee Messianic restoration of Levitical sacrificial Torah?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Galatians 3:24-25
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We're not under the law? I thought you were saying we are always supposed to be working at Torah?

Either you don't know what you are talking about or Paul doesn't. Tough choice here.

2 Corinthians 3:7-8

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Ministration of death written on stones? Why would Paul call Torah the ministration of death?

Ministration of the Spirit? What is that? How come Paul didn't say his work at Torah obedience is the most glorious thing?

Galatians 3:2-3

[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Did you start in the ministration of the Spirit by your Torah obedience? You are foolish thinking that your work and understanding at Torah obedience is real obedience to God.

There's that Spirit again. I wonder what that is all about. What does my understanding and work at Torah have to do with this Spirit?

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

So if I place myself back under law and attempt to work at Torah obedience sin will have dominion over me? I don't think I want that.

It seems that those who follow after the law of righteousness cannot attain that righteousness. Weird. I wonder why the people who think their work at Torah obedience is the Way that the Lord Jesus Christ established? I suppose if you think that, the Lord really only saved bulls and goats. That's a pretty shallow view of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. In my opinion.

I wonder if people who work at Torah obedience maybe are a little confused....

Who can save me from my own work and attempted obedience to this Perfect Law?

Do you think those who practice lawlessness are the ones that sin has dominion over or the ones that sin doesn't have dominion over? If a person tries to obey the law of righteousness but doesn't attain that righteousness does that make that person obedient or not obedient?

There has to be a better Way.

There IS a better way for you, my friend!

Stop resisting truth and ANSWER my question!

I designed this question for you so that you will learn truth! Yet you continue to refuse to learn....refuse to answer...


So, I'll ask YET AGAIN: Do you reject 1? 2? 3? or 4? If you accept these, then you MUST agree that we should obey Torah!

If you reject any of 1, 2, 3, or 4, then you OPPOSE Scripture (and its logical consequences).

So, why do you continue to refuse to answer?

Unless you directly address my Scripturally-grounded objection to your position, your position will remain undefended.

Why would you persist in embracing a position which you can not defend?

best...
BibleGuy

 

[jaybird88]

Crowley-ism?

pretty much. crowley took it to the extreme but this philosophy was beloved and revered by these people because to them it represented the polar opposite of Jesus and those that followed Him, liberation from those laws.

If that's what you mean, don't worry. Paul settled the matter:

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" (Romans 6:1-2)

i agree with paul, sadly i think his teachings are manipulated into beliefs that he never intended to teach.