Great big gap in Daniels 70 weeks?

edward99 · Jul 17, 2012

I can keep going. In spite of your obstinacy and insults.

Quote:
Does it say that?

Quote:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy

eternally-gratefull said:

You're not right. You said:

eternally-gratefull said:

It doesn't say ANYWHERE THE PEOPLE will finish transgression.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy...

It is about JESUS CHRIST.
And what HE DID.
Your absurd contention that the jews have to stop sinning (the people of daniel will at that time finish transgression) before God can save them is lame. and serious error and a false gospel.

In typical fashion, and according to the very core of the devil's scheme, you have virtually made the jews their OWN messiah! At the very least you're helping them cut themselves off by propping up this idea there's some future provision outside God's Grace for all who call upon Christ.

Why won't you EXPLAIN how it is the jews are going to stop sinning?
HOW do the PEOPLE of Daniel (future to US NO LESS!):

finish the transgression
make an end of sins
make reconciliation for iniquity
bring in everlasting righteousness
seal up the vision and prophecy
anoint the most Holy

See how you've placed them on the Mercy Seat!
And you say you believe this craziness because you say RCC introduced "replacement theology" due to antisemitism!

eternally-gratefull said:

I have it right.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 17, 2012

edward99 said:

It is obvious we can go no further.

1. You made a huge mkistake and refuse to admit it. You can't even see your own error.

70 weeks are determined for YOUR PEOPLE AND YOUR HOLY CITY.

who is Daniels people and his holy city? none other than the children of Isreal and the city of jerusalem..

You want to keep ignoring facts and only underline UPON, and ignore YOUR PEOPLE.

Gabriel spoke to daniel. When he said YOUR PEOPLE, he meant DANIELS PEOPLE. Thus I was right, so either admit you made a mistake. or we are done.

Laodicea · Jul 17, 2012

edward99 said:

Daniel 9 needs to be read as a whole not just the last few verses. Daniel is praying about Jerusalem confessing that Jerusalem was destroyed because of the sins of Israel. Daniel's prayer is answered and Daniel is told told his people have another 490 years and because they rejected Christ and His message spoken through the apostles, God allowed the city to be destroyed. But the city was destroyed by Titus because of the sins of Israel just as in the Babylonian captivity. Read all of Daniel 9.

edward99 · Jul 17, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

Oh please. You're full of mistakes. I'll admit no such thing when it comes to this.

Do I have to spend the time retrieving all those posts that show how deceitful you're being?

I'm the one who pointed out to you initially that Daniel's prayer was for his people and for the holy city, ok? To make the point that Jesus said He had only come for the lost sheep of Israel (who YOU said were still LOST! LOL!)

You're the one pushing childish ideas that the israelites (future to us) must end their own transgressions to receive the Land

" for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."

Oh no! there's that Covenant being confirmed (strengthened). And there's the forgiveness of sins.

I've shown you, and Daniel shows anybody with a reasonable ability to just read it that it is about CHRIST and what He did for THEM, and for us.

JEW FIRST...then gentile.

You're one who cant comprehend that just because man added chapter breaks; punctuation; and numbered the verses, it doesn't mean "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." comes AFTER (way off in the future) the preceding part:

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

It's all about Christ (again, Whom you brush aside and make it about some antichrist in the future).

Try this:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins and to make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness and to seal up the vision and prophecy and to anoint the most Holy Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again and the wall even in troublous times and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off but not for himself and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary and the end thereof shall be with a flood and unto the end of the war desolations are determined and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

Matthew 26
The Lord’s Supper Instituted

26While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. 29“But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

Of course, you'll NEVER admit to error, because yours are not little errors. Your entire theological foundation is faulty. So admitting error for you would be a disaster (in your mind). In reality it's your hope.

But ou'll never admit you were taught it, and had it reinforced by other dispensationalists who have been teaching this nonsense for 100 years. You'll say you got from your own personal study.

edward99 · Jul 17, 2012

Laodicea said:

I have read it. My only point was this:

Laodicea said:

Israel doesn't belong where you put it AT ALL.

the people referred to there weren't Israel and the prince referred to there isn't Jesus.

its Romans and Titus.

meecha · Jul 17, 2012

eternally grateful said:

Daniel is told that after 7 and 62 weeks (69 weeks) messiah the prince will be cut off. this is the ONLY thing which we can take as fact that an actual time frame is given. At the end of the 69th week messiah will be crucified.

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.

I will assume you will not mind me quoting the LXX since you havn't raised any objection so far

26 And after the sixty-two weeks(that is the 62=7 and therefore now the 70th week) the anointed one ( the Christ)shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he ( the annointed one) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with ( ie through the agency of ) the ( roman) prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood( an invading army ), and to the end of the war (singular) which is rapidly completed he ( the Christ) shall appoint the city to desolations.
27 And one week ( the 70th week) shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week ( 3.5 years the duration of Jesus ministry) my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and ( as a result of all this) on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

That leaves one week left.

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yes

Gabriel goes on to tell of events which will happen after the crucifiction of Christ

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no....he goes on to explain in more detail that the crucifixtion which ends the sacrificial system and brings the law to fulfilment occurs in the middle of the week. He says that the 70th week follows the 69th because 70 weeks have been determined. It is a time text.

we are left with 2 possibilities at this point.

1. There is no gap and all these events will happen within 7 years after the messiah is cut off
2. It is impossible that these things could occure in the 7 years following the death of Christ

Click to expand...

I must be missing something! The annointed one is destroyed after the 69th week....therefore IN the 70th week. It does not say the day after the 69th week ...it says after the 69th week.

What did gabriel say would follow the death?

1. The people of the prince who is to come (not the prince himself) will destroy the city (this happend some 40 years after messiah cut off, so we already have either a gap, or a symbolic last week, and not a literal one.

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no...not in my version ...it says the annointed one with the prince who is to come

here we can go to another passage which shows this. In luke we have another account. which follows the abomination.

24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

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all that means is Jerusalem will be trampled down until the Roman empire expires

In other words, the desolation will continue until the time or age of the gentile has been filfilled, or as Paul puts it in romans 11, The fullness of the gentiles is complete.

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the fullness of the gentiles is not the time of the gentiles

1. The prince will confirm a covenant with many

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my version does not say the prince will confirm a covenant. It says "and one week shall establish the covenant"

2. In the middle of that week (7 year time period) that prince will commit the abomination of desolation.

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my version says that in the middle of the week my offerinfg and sacrifice will be taken away

all these things DID NOT OCCUR in the 7 years post the death of Christ. so we are all left with one of two options.

Click to expand...

most of these things happened in the first half of the 70th week.

meecha · Jul 17, 2012

edward99 said:

Did you note the LXX version Ed? It is even more devastating to the futurist cause. Philip Mauro in his commentary is of the opinion that Jesus quotes the LXX when He references the abomination. It's easy to see why.

LXX
27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

Massoretic
27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.

edward99 · Jul 17, 2012

meecha said:

.

I will assume you will not mind me quoting the LXX since you havn't raised any objection so far

26 And after the sixty-two weeks(that is the 62=7 and therefore now the 70th week) the anointed one ( the Christ)shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he ( the annointed one) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with ( ie through the agency of ) the ( roman) prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood( an invading army ), and to the end of the war (singular) which is rapidly completed he ( the Christ) shall appoint the city to desolations.
27 And one week ( the 70th week) shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week ( 3.5 years the duration of Jesus ministry) my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and ( as a result of all this) on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

yes

no....he goes on to explain in more detail that the crucifixtion which ends the sacrificial system and brings the law to fulfilment occurs in the middle of the week. He says that the 70th week follows the 69th because 70 weeks have been determined. It is a time text.

I must be missing something! The annointed one is destroyed after the 69th week....therefore IN the 70th week. It does not say the day after the 69th week ...it says after the 69th week.

no...not in my version ...it says the annointed one with the prince who is to come

all that means is Jerusalem will be trampled down until the Roman empire expires

the fullness of the gentiles is not the time of the gentiles

my version does not say the prince will confirm a covenant. It says "and one week shall establish the covenant"

my version says that in the middle of the week my offerinfg and sacrifice will be taken away

most of these things happened in the first half of the 70th week.

Super Cool!
Can I get your online link for the LXX?

Love it!
(It says I can't "rep" you again yet so i'll just LIKE

)

edward99 · Jul 17, 2012

meecha said:

Hi Meecha!
And that's the reason for the OP: Re: Great big gap in Daniels 70 weeks?
That gap!
For futurists its after the 69th, but not in the 70th, so like I said, it must be hanging out in space somewhere floating while God figures out how to get the jews to stop sinning! Haha.
Good Grief.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 17, 2012

edward99 said:

Then we can go no further..

1. You lied and said Gabriel did not say something he did.

2. You called me a liar by saying he did not say it, when he did, even after I proved to you he did.

3. You refuse to admit you made a mistake. Even I do this. no one is perfect. If you can't show some humility here, You have lost all credibility.

Read daniel 9 as a whole. Who was daniel praying about? He was pryinat about his people Who were in captivity because of sin, It was supposed to be for only 70 years, and daniel knew the 70 years were almost up. He was begging God for mercy for his city and his people. Confessing the sins of His people.

Gabriels answer was in response to daniels prayer. He said &0 years have been determined for YOUR PEOPLE (WHo daniel was praying for ) And YOUR CITY Who daniel was also praying for.

You have been proven wrong twice now. Are you going to show any humility whatsoever? People who believe the way you do (for the most part) even agree I am right. You don;t have to be to proud to admit a mistake!

eternally-gratefull · Jul 17, 2012

meecha said:

Is that what your using? I wondered. I object to this. This is awful. I saw it before and had no clue what you used, But did not need to. I could refute it even as it was.

History showes that after the decree to restor the city and the streets. Until the DAY Jesus entered jerusalem on a donkey as prophesied, was the end of the 69 weeks to the day. Jesus was cut of 7 days later. which is only 1/52 of a day of a week in hebrew calander of weeks of sevens.

?? The crucifiction did not end the sacrificial system my friend. The sacrificial system never took away sin for one. And two. The sacrifices the jews were doing even at the time of Christ were not even seen by God because they were in sin. Those who claim to be jews in Isreal today have everything they need from the heffer, to the priests garments, To the decorations of the inner corridore, All they need is a temple. They even have the money to do this. The ONLY thing stopping them is the dome of the rock. If a treaty is made where they can rebuild that temple, they could have it done in a year easy!!

100 years ago. you all might have an easier time using your so called proof. The further we get into the birth pangs we see today prophesied by Christ. the harder your theology will be to stand!

Not to mention. Again, you need to look at language and the sequence of events. THEN the covenant is made. It is made AFTER the death, and AFTER the destruction.

This why we turn to history., shows this happened the week (days not years) after the messiah was introduced. That still leavs prety much the whole of the last 7 years in tact. minus 1 week of days.

lol. so that means yours is right?? thanks,, whatever!

When is this? according to daniel. the empire will splinter into many kingdoms, then be restored mightier than it was in its origional shappe. The empire split in two. then many kingdoms, And has yet to be retored to its mightiest form yet. And jeruslaem is still being trampled is it not?? I guess it is still going on then!

Thanks for your opinion. But I will chose to believe what is logical. A time period is given, Up until that time, the age is not full. When the time is complete. the age is full.

Jesus said the times of the gentiles is fulfilled. Or when the age is full. same difference.

Prety much same difference. It is still a one week covenant.

Yep. Then it could not have been Christ who did it. He did it at the beginning of the week, Or the end of the 69th week. However view you use. so either way, your still off on your time frame.

And if I were you. I would get a different version. Yours is off quite a bit

It would not matter. ALL of them would have had to happen within the 70th week. or your time frame is off pr there is some sort of gap..

You can;t get out of it!

Laodicea · Jul 17, 2012

Daniel 9 has 2 lots of 490 years. The 70 years mentioned at the start of the chapter is 490 years, each year being a sabbath year. The 70 weeks at the end of the chapter is also 490 years

meecha · Jul 18, 2012

edward99 said:

lol...indeed its' floating around in gapland

I tried posting the link to the LXX but couldnt but the site is called "The Common Mans Perspective"...if you type in that + Septuaging or LXX you should find it

meecha · Jul 18, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

OK EG so you don't want to deal with the LXX. It doesn't agree with your theology.Yet this is the version Jesus quoted in relation to the abomination. Do you have any reason to reject it? other than the fact that you don't like it? Please refute away. Straighten me out. Try a KJV nut called Peter Ruckman.....he hates the LXX ....reckons it's a fraud.He might be able to help you out. Otherwise you're in trouble. All scholars are well aware of Jesus and the Apostles frequent citations from the LXX.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 18, 2012

meecha said:

1. Any english text should be held to scrutiny
2. The greek language is not like the english, so it depends on how it is interpreted.
3. I have logos. I have access to almost every text used, and NON of them even come close to what your using.
4. Jesus spoke in Greek, not in english. so I don't know how y=he used your english interpretation of said scripture.

I see you did not answer only of my posts. Just wanted to continue to hold up your version of scripture. Nice going..I hope your not going to try to convince me by using these tactics.

meecha · Jul 18, 2012

Eternally Grateful said:

Any english text should be held to scrutiny

Click to expand...

I don't disagree

Im quoting from the LXX translation by C. L. Brenton

Yes ...they won't because they are translating the Aramaic/Hebrew from the masoretic text. The LXX is a Greek translation of the Hebrew from c 200/300 BC. It is a different translation....however Jesus, Paul and the other NT writers frequently quote it showing that they considered it a credible version. It was the KJV of it's day...the most popular bible translation of the 1st century. So helpful was it to the cause of Christianity that the Jews commisioned two further Greek translations of the Hebrew bible specifically to counter the influence of the LXX. Ps 22's rendition "they pierced my hands and feet" is not in the masoretic...it reads "like a lion"....this is an example of how the LXX and the masoretic texts differ. However Jesus quotes the LXX when refering to the abomination. If you have particular issues with Brenton's translation fire away....I have no working knowledge of Greek so if you want to go Greek on me feel free.

I never said he did

Well I used the term "my version" to draw out that response because I realise that you never read the OP. I did address the LXX issue there as well as the commentary on the 70 weeks by Philip Mauro. Do go back and check the OP carefully ....you tend to have a very accusatory tone.....maybe it's just the internet...Obviously the LXX is not "my" version. I suspect the translation has caught you off guard as it did me when I first saw it. The English of the masoretic is extremely wordy and complicated imo

and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

is a lot more to unravel than

and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

however it's easy to see from Matt 24 which one Jesus was quoting....but maybe you are qualified to critique Brentons rendering of the Greek......maybe the Greek of the LXX says something different......if so I eagerly await it.

edward99 · Jul 18, 2012

meecha said:

OFF TOPIC from OP, but Meecha -

The twenty-second psalm continues to ignite controversy, in the dialogues between Christians and Jews, concerning the Messiahship of Yeshua of Nazareth. The pinnacle of this disputation reaches a summit in verse 17 (16 in Christian editions), which many Christians translate, "They have pierced my hands and my feet." Jewish translations adhere to the majority reading within the family of the Masoretic text, "like a lion are my hands and feet."

To Whom Does Psalm 22 Refer?
The Rabbis apply psalm 22 to Esther, an interpretation which can be seen in Rabbinic literature such as the Bablyonian Talmud and the midrash on Psalms. In the most literal, non-prophetic sense, the psalm most likely described David. However, Rabbi Tovia Singer of Outreach Judaism, incorrectly states,

". . . missionaries are confronted with another remarkable problem as they seek to project the words of this Psalm into a first century crucifixion story. In the simplest terms, this text that Christians eagerly quote is not a prophecy, nor does it speak of any future event."1

Like a Lion?
G. Shapiro, an anti-missionary, says that, ". . . mistranslations prove only that the missionaries trying to convert you are deceptive."3Then, however, Shapiro goes on to insert absent words into the text: "like lions [they maul] my hands and feet."4 The words "they maul" are missing from the Hebrew, and that's why Shapiro has brackets around the words

R. Singer, probably the most prominent accuser of "deceptive mistranslations", also ADDS to the text with, "like a lion they are at my hands and my feet."

Singer himself interpolates foreign words to the text of Psalm 22 with,

Dogs have encompassed me.
A company of evildoers has enclosed me;
like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.8

Singer, on his website, doesn't even put brackets around the words, "they are at", which are completely ABSENT from the Hebrew. Immediately after this quotation, he then accuses Christian translators of inserting the word pierced!

Psalm 22

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