Greek Philosophical thought or What Jesus (i.e. The Bible) taught

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May 1, 2022
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#1
The development of the doctrine of the Trinity in early Christian theology was indeed influenced by the intellectual environment of the time, which included Greek philosophical thought among other factors. It's important to recognize that the formulation of Christian doctrines, including the Trinity, occurred in a context where various philosophical traditions provided the language and conceptual frameworks that theologians used to articulate their understanding of Christian revelation.

Terminology and Concepts: Early Christian theologians employed terms and concepts from Greek (PAGAN) philosophy to articulate the nature of God and the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For example, terms like "ousia" (essence or substance) and "hypostasis" (person) were used to describe the unity and distinction within the Godhead. These terms helped theologians to communicate complex theological ideas in a precise and nuanced way.
Platonism and Neoplatonism: These philosophical traditions influenced early Christian thought in significant ways. The emphasis on the transcendence of the highest good and the hierarchical ordering of reality in Platonism and Neoplatonism provided a framework for early Christians to understand the relationship between the divine and the material world. Concepts of emanation and participation in Neoplatonism, for example, helped some theologians think about how the Son could be understood as emanating from the Father without division or separation.
Logos Theology: The concept of the Logos (Word) in John's Gospel was interpreted by early Christians in light of the Stoic and Platonic notion of the Logos as a rational principle organizing the cosmos. This helped Christians articulate how the Son (the Logos) relates to the Father and the world. Theologians like Justin Martyr and Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher, made significant contributions to Logos theology by integrating these philosophical notions with biblical texts.

Jesus spoke Aramaic, the common language of Judea in his time. The New Testament was written primarily in Greek, but the focus was on conveying Jewish religious ideas, not Greek philosophy. The New Testament authors aimed to fulfill and reinterpret the Hebrew Bible for a Jewish audience, not introduce foreign philosophical ideas. Jesus and the original writers of the New Testament did not explicitly use Greek philosophy in their teachings in the way we might think of a philosopher engaging directly with philosophical concepts or systems. Their primary context was the religious and cultural milieu of 1st-century Judaism, and their teachings are deeply rooted in the Jewish Scriptures and apocalyptic expectations of the time.

The New Testament writings, including the teachings of Jesus, emphasize the close relationship between the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Passages such as the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs His disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," and the farewell discourse in the Gospel of John (chapters 14–16), where Jesus speaks extensively about the role of the Father and the Holy Spirit, highlight the early Christian understanding of a complex interrelationship between Father, Son, and Spirit. However, these writings do not articulate the doctrine of the Trinity in the explicit, formalized manner seen in later creedal formulations.
 
May 1, 2022
565
156
43
#2
All I want is to seek Truth within Scripture, it is the FINAL authority we should live by. And if 1000's of years of Church history distorted God's word, from What Jesus taught and what the biblical authors wrote, then we have a duty to point that out, For souls lie in the balance on what we say.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,148
5,722
113
#3
All I want is to seek Truth within Scripture, it is the FINAL authority we should live by. And if 1000's of years of Church history distorted God's word, from What Jesus taught and what the biblical authors wrote, then we have a duty to point that out, For souls lie in the balance on what we say.
brother “the Trinity “ is a concept to describe the one God revealed in the gospel

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus ( the son ) also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,( the holy spirit )

and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; ( the father is speaking about the son who receives the spirit ) in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This song three gods or three persons it is one God shown in his fulness the concept is about us becoming the children of God ( sons) being filled with (his spirit ) and having a father in heaven

“If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I ( son) will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, ( Holy Ghost ) that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father,

and ye in me,

and I in you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-17, 20‬ ‭

the concept of the trinity is what the gospels main theme is God the father of all creation sent his spirit o to the world through Christ Jesus so that we can become the sons of God filled with his spirit and washed in his blood

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

at he entire New Testament is about the father son and Holy Ghost and how this process saves mankind’s souls God placing his spirit in us only works with the concept of the father in heaven , the son who came to earth and his spirit which is given to believers

God is God whether he is in heaven unseen on earth manifest in the flesh or if he dwells in our hearts by the promise of his spirit within us

hes the same in heaven in earth and in our hearts the father son and Holy Ghost is a concept so we can understand God and his plan to save his children it’s written in the epistles because it’s what Jesus was teaching them

Godnis one salvstion requires us to grasp the concept of the father son and Holy Ghost wothoit tbat concept none of the New Testament makes sense of Godnisnt the father how are we his children ? If we don’t believe on the son ,how can we believe he died for our sins ? If we don’t accept the doctrine about the holy spirit given To us how can we believe we’re saved or forgiven or born again ?

its a concept regarding the true God who is one
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
1,130
113
New Zealand
#4
The development of the doctrine of the Trinity in early Christian theology was indeed influenced by the intellectual environment of the time, which included Greek philosophical thought among other factors. It's important to recognize that the formulation of Christian doctrines, including the Trinity, occurred in a context where various philosophical traditions provided the language and conceptual frameworks that theologians used to articulate their understanding of Christian revelation.

Terminology and Concepts: Early Christian theologians employed terms and concepts from Greek (PAGAN) philosophy to articulate the nature of God and the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For example, terms like "ousia" (essence or substance) and "hypostasis" (person) were used to describe the unity and distinction within the Godhead. These terms helped theologians to communicate complex theological ideas in a precise and nuanced way.
Platonism and Neoplatonism: These philosophical traditions influenced early Christian thought in significant ways. The emphasis on the transcendence of the highest good and the hierarchical ordering of reality in Platonism and Neoplatonism provided a framework for early Christians to understand the relationship between the divine and the material world. Concepts of emanation and participation in Neoplatonism, for example, helped some theologians think about how the Son could be understood as emanating from the Father without division or separation.
Logos Theology: The concept of the Logos (Word) in John's Gospel was interpreted by early Christians in light of the Stoic and Platonic notion of the Logos as a rational principle organizing the cosmos. This helped Christians articulate how the Son (the Logos) relates to the Father and the world. Theologians like Justin Martyr and Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher, made significant contributions to Logos theology by integrating these philosophical notions with biblical texts.

Jesus spoke Aramaic, the common language of Judea in his time. The New Testament was written primarily in Greek, but the focus was on conveying Jewish religious ideas, not Greek philosophy. The New Testament authors aimed to fulfill and reinterpret the Hebrew Bible for a Jewish audience, not introduce foreign philosophical ideas. Jesus and the original writers of the New Testament did not explicitly use Greek philosophy in their teachings in the way we might think of a philosopher engaging directly with philosophical concepts or systems. Their primary context was the religious and cultural milieu of 1st-century Judaism, and their teachings are deeply rooted in the Jewish Scriptures and apocalyptic expectations of the time.

The New Testament writings, including the teachings of Jesus, emphasize the close relationship between the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Passages such as the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs His disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," and the farewell discourse in the Gospel of John (chapters 14–16), where Jesus speaks extensively about the role of the Father and the Holy Spirit, highlight the early Christian understanding of a complex interrelationship between Father, Son, and Spirit. However, these writings do not articulate the doctrine of the Trinity in the explicit, formalized manner seen in later creedal formulations.
If the bible really is your authority, then there are some things that you gotta know.

1) Jesus is fully God
2) The Father is fully God
3) The Son is fully God
4) There is only one God

The bible is crystal clear on this.

It is also clear that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are distinct.

I would argue though...they are not separate.

I am not a fan of saying Jesus is not the Father if it means a separation. Same goes for the Holy Spirit.

But .. there shouldn't be a problem with this if God's creation can have this kind of triune nature. The egg... the way light is many shades of 3 base colours, water can be ice, steam and liquid.

God though.. is all 3 at the same time. Not going from one to the other.

The Father wasn't on the cross. Jesus was. Jesus sent the Comforter with the Father sending also.

So it's clear they are distinct. One essence in three expressions/persons.

At least you still have Jesus as fully God. But I don't get how you can deny the Trinity if Jesus is fully God.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,481
695
113
#5
All I want is to seek Truth within Scripture, it is the FINAL authority we should live by. And if 1000's of years of Church history distorted God's word, from What Jesus taught and what the biblical authors wrote, then we have a duty to point that out, For souls lie in the balance on what we say.
If you think by using the language of the times that the purity of God’s message is somehow lost, then I challenge you to come up with another way that God could explain Himself. I think He is perfectly able to convey His majesty with or without any language ever devised.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#6
If you think by using the language of the times that the purity of God’s message is somehow lost, then I challenge you to come up with another way that God could explain Himself. I think He is perfectly able to convey His majesty with or without any language ever devised.
I think it can be tricky doing as you suggest.

Let's take the Holy Spirit for example.
In some parts of scripture it looks like One single part of God.
In other parts of scripture it looks like the Spirit of Jesus Himself.

Acts 5:
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
4 You have not lied to man but to God.”

We know the Holy Spirit is God.
But look at when Ananias "wife" does same thing.

9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord?

Here the Holy Spirit, God, is also the Spirit of the Lord, which is Jesus.


Paul writes the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. And if any one has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


So it is quite easy to see how someone can read these verses and think as Tylerbones1313 does.
 
May 1, 2022
565
156
43
#7
If the bible really is your authority, then there are some things that you gotta know.

1) Jesus is fully God
2) The Father is fully God
3) The Son is fully God
4) There is only one God

The bible is crystal clear on this.

It is also clear that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are distinct.

I would argue though...they are not separate.

I am not a fan of saying Jesus is not the Father if it means a separation. Same goes for the Holy Spirit.

But .. there shouldn't be a problem with this if God's creation can have this kind of triune nature. The egg... the way light is many shades of 3 base colours, water can be ice, steam and liquid.

God though.. is all 3 at the same time. Not going from one to the other.

The Father wasn't on the cross. Jesus was. Jesus sent the Comforter with the Father sending also.

So it's clear they are distinct. One essence in three expressions/persons.

At least you still have Jesus as fully God. But I don't get how you can deny the Trinity if Jesus is fully God.
Because if Jesus is FULLY God how can you split His person into three. Jesus never ceases to be fully God. So in essence God the Father was at the Cross. His divine nature had to step back because His Human Nature had to feel the full weight and pain of Sin for the entirety of the world.
 
May 1, 2022
565
156
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#8
It is also clear that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are distinct.
Distinct roles the ONE God has shown throughout history to His Church. Not persons of God.

I am not a fan of saying Jesus is not the Father if it means a separation. Same goes for the Holy Spirit.{/QUOTE]

Amen!

At least you still have Jesus as fully God. But I don't get how you can deny the Trinity if Jesus is fully God.
I see the threeness aspect as they exist wholly in the body of Christ. This is great discussion and worthy of searching out.