Hades / The Grave

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Webers.Home

Webers.Home

Well-known member
#121
May 28, 2018
5,890
1,084
113
Oregon
#121
.
Former US President John F. Kennedy was assassinated Friday, Nov 22,
1963 @ 12:30 p.m. by one Lee Harvey Oswald.

According to Matt 10:28, though Oswald succeeded in terminating the life of
Mr. Kennedy's body, he did not succeed in terminating the life of Mr.
Kennedy's soul. No, that part of the former president's existence survived.

Matt 10:28 is very good evidence that human existence consists of at least
two components: soul and body; which is corroborated by 1Thess 5:23.

The million dollar question is: Where was Mr. Kennedy's soul taken when his
body passed away?

Well, one of the biblical answers to that question is located in Luke 16:19
31, viz: Mr. Kennedy's soul was taken to either the rich man's location, or it
was taken to Abraham's.
_
 
G

garee

Banned
#122
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#122
Webers.Home said:
.
Former US President John F. Kennedy was assassinated Friday, Nov 22,
1963 @ 12:30 p.m. by one Lee Harvey Oswald.

According to Matt 10:28, though Oswald succeeded in terminating the life of
Mr. Kennedy's body, he did not succeed in terminating the life of Mr.
Kennedy's soul. No, that part of the former president's existence survived.

Matt 10:28 is very good evidence that human existence consists of at least
two components: soul and body; which is corroborated by 1Thess 5:23.

The million dollar question is: Where was Mr. Kennedy's soul taken when his
body passed away?

Well, one of the biblical answers to that question is located in Luke 16:19
31, viz: Mr. Kennedy's soul was taken to either the rich man's location, or it
was taken to Abraham's.
_
Click to expand...
I would offer .That is a parable in a series of parables (5) . The end or understanding of that series .the gospel message ....(if men will not believe the gospel , law and prophets (sola scriptura) as it is written then neither would they believe if someone came back from the dead..)

From my experience I don't think God would slip in a literal translation in a series of parables to possibly confuse the matter. .

Parables aid us in walking by faith (the unseen understanding.)

Two in that parable. Lazarus not buried (the living) and Rich man (buried the dead) who was bankrupt spiritually. (no faith) He had no new born again spirit life. His corrupted flesh returned back to the corrupted dust and his spirit returned to the father of all spirits who gave the breath of life to mankind. In respect to the letter of the law that he had etched in their hearts . "Do not eat or you will surely die."

The spirit departed and the hearts of mankind turned to stone Representing mankind ate and did die .The wrath of God being revealed from heaven. His glory hidden waiting till the last day to reveal His new bride.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The rich man dead in his trespasses and sin and Lazarus who was not buried representing the lively stones that do make up the spiritual house of God. Those described as having been given a fleshly heart and not stone like the rich dead man

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead..Luke 16: 31

He did rise there were left with no faith.

Find or look for the spiritual understanding. Without the spiritual understanding Christ spoke not using parables to compare the things seen the temporal giving us the unseen understanding.
 
P

PERFECTION

Active member
#123
Aug 14, 2019
222
63
28
#123
Dear Webers.home: It is good for us to understand that man is a triune being. We are a body....or earthen vessel .....which contains our soul, which contains our spirit. When the body dies ( by whatever cause ) the soul ( which is given life by the spirit) has one of two places it will abide. The souls of the righteous ascend into the great cloud of witness (or heaven as some call it ......Her. 12:1) and the souls of the wicked descend into hell. It is my opinion, that hell exists in the center of our earth. There will come a day when hell, at its present location will be ripped up and cast into lake of fire.
The great cloud of wittiness also will be relocated. They will be taken to place where they will spend the following one thousand years.

From the scripture you referenced in Luke we understand that both places have a view one to the other. We also understand hell is a place of torment , and those in either place can recognize each other.
It is also interesting to me that the rich man suddenly developed feelings for someone besides himself.

Finally, many brothers and sisters do not believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Instead they believe that the body ,soul ,and spirit go into the ground where they wait what they refer to as "the resurrection". If I understand it correctly, they ,at the time of this "resurrection " believe a person is given a new body. I do not know of what composition this body will emerge, neither do I know if this body will exist as a triune being.

This doctrine of the after life is mutually exclusive , if you take one you reject the other, however I do not believe there is condemnation as a result of ones decision. But.......all decisions have consequence .........each of these doctrines provide a course of study in the scripture. Which ever one you choose should lead you into a deeper understanding of your relationship with Christ. Choose wisely
 
P

PERFECTION

Active member
#124
Aug 14, 2019
222
63
28
#124
garee said:
I would offer .That is a parable in a series of parables (5) . The end or understanding of that series .the gospel message ....(if men will not believe the gospel , law and prophets (sola scriptura) as it is written then neither would they believe if someone came back from the dead..)

From my experience I don't think God would slip in a literal translation in a series of parables to possibly confuse the matter. .

Parables aid us in walking by faith (the unseen understanding.)

Two in that parable. Lazarus not buried (the living) and Rich man (buried the dead) who was bankrupt spiritually. (no faith) He had no new born again spirit life. His corrupted flesh returned back to the corrupted dust and his spirit returned to the father of all spirits who gave the breath of life to mankind. In respect to the letter of the law that he had etched in their hearts . "Do not eat or you will surely die."

The spirit departed and the hearts of mankind turned to stone Representing mankind ate and did die .The wrath of God being revealed from heaven. His glory hidden waiting till the last day to reveal His new bride.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The rich man dead in his trespasses and sin and Lazarus who was not buried representing the lively stones that do make up the spiritual house of God. Those described as having been given a fleshly heart and not stone like the rich dead man

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead..Luke 16: 31

He did rise there were left with no faith.

Find or look for the spiritual understanding. Without the spiritual understanding Christ spoke not using parables to compare the things seen the temporal giving us the unseen understanding.
Click to expand...
This event described by Jesus is NOT a parable. Jesus spoke in parables many times but this was not one of those times.
There is a reason people reject this as an actual event. The reason being ......the traditional doctrine of the "resurrection ". To believe that this is a parable is to deny there is a place called Abrahams bosom where saints go to when they die ,therefore leaving no need for a "resurrection" as traditionally taught.
 
H

Heyjude

Active member
#126
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
43
#126
PERFECTION said:
This event described by Jesus is NOT a parable. Jesus spoke in parables many times but this was not one of those times.
There is a reason people reject this as an actual event. The reason being ......the traditional doctrine of the "resurrection ". To believe that this is a parable is to deny there is a place called Abrahams bosom where saints go to when they die ,therefore leaving no need for a "resurrection" as traditionally taught.
Click to expand...
Yes and also, Jesus never named anyone specifically in other parables apart from this one.
 
P

PERFECTION

Active member
#127
Aug 14, 2019
222
63
28
#127
Heyjude said:
Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead". The dead know nothing meant something else.
Click to expand...
Not sure what point your making. Maybe you could give more of your thoughts on the matter. Thanks
 
H

Heyjude

Active member
#128
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
43
#128
Interesting it is, that the "rich man" was still trying to command and use Lazarus to go and do stuff for him, as if he had any authority or power over him even then. And yes as you say, it is interesting how he did seem to care about his other 5 brothers end as well. I wonder why he asked Abraham to ask Lazarus to fetch the drop of water to cool his tongue and not Abraham himself. Either way, a drop wouldn't seem enough to request either way to quench the heat of his tongue given where he was. No cups or buckets there probably.
 
H

Heyjude

Active member
#130
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
43
#130
Heyjude said:
Sorry meant that for somewhere else.....
Click to expand...
this was in answer to the last post not your post if I put it in the wrong place, sorry about that (I am on a ridiculous phone right now that doesn't work properly and cant even type...sorry about that. But what I meant was that "dead" can mean spiritually dead. Spiritually dead people don't know anything either. In the quote of Jesus, "let the dead bury the dead" I think he meant, Jesus is life, turning about from him with worldly duties is death. So the dead in spirit are left to bury the dead in body: the living are following Jesus along the way.
 
J

jb

Senior Member
#131
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
113
#131
Webers.Home said:
.
The comments and questions below are relative to Luke 16:19-31.

How is it that the rich man and Abraham were able to see from their own
grave into each other's grave? Do dead people have X-ray vision? Do they
have any vision at all let alone X-ray?

Do dead people actually have the ability to communicate with other dead
people? You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how
they're deceased and no longer sentient.

What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and
the rich man's grave? The story suggests dead people could, and would, visit
one another's graves were it not for the barrier separating them.

From whence did the rich man assume that Lazarus could fetch water? Was
Lazarus' grave adjacent to an aquifer or some such?

The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e.
Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest stacked on top of Abraham's corpse.

The story tells that Lazarus' pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or
was Lazarus' funeral a special event?
_
Click to expand...
For those interested you can find a short study Here on this subject...
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#132
Jul 3, 2015
61,096
30,220
113
#132
Heyjude said:
Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead". The dead know nothing meant something else.
Click to expand...
I find it odd that people say Scripture means something other than what it actually explicitly states. It is true that the word dead takes on different meanings contingent on context, but saying the dead know nothing is referring to people who have passed out of this worldly existence, not those who have not been spiritually reborn. At least, that is how I read it. Someone stated earlier that God is the God of the living, as if that were the end of it, but my Bible states that God is the God of the living and the dead. People rag on about the importance of context and word meaning but then will turn around and assign their own meanings to words, and refuse to acknowledge it.
 
Webers.Home

Webers.Home

Well-known member
#133
May 28, 2018
5,890
1,084
113
Oregon
#133
.
Ecclesiastes is the Bible's fun book because it's chock full of normal thinking
instead of religious dogma. Ecclesiastes requires very little interpretation as
anybody who's been around the block a time or two can easily relate to its
thoughts.

Bible students are often baffled as to why Solomon's remarks in the book of
Ecclesiastes sometimes contradict Jesus' teachings in the New Testament.
Well; the answer to that is actually pretty simple.

Solomon wasn't inspired to record his observations of life from the
perspective of an enlightened man who's privy to knowledge beyond the
scope of empirical evidence and human experience; rather, from the
perspective of a man under the sun; viz: a down to earth thinking man
whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see for himself
going on around him in the physical universe; which of course results in an
evaluation of life on earth as seen from the earth rather than an evaluation
of life on earth as seen from heaven.

In other words: Ecclesiastes is one man's world view-- his personal
philosophy of life --rather than a book of either history or prophecy; and it's
loaded with pessimism; which is basically a mindset inclined to dwell on the
negative in human experience rather than the positive.

Solomon was the brightest intellectual of his day. However; it is not wise to
interpret Jesus' teachings by citing Solomon's because according to Matt
12:42, Luke 11:31, and Col 2:3; Jesus' wisdom is superior to Solomon's.
_
 
H

Heyjude

Active member
#134
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
43
#134
Magenta said:
I find it odd that people say Scripture means something other than what it actually explicitly states. It is true that the word dead takes on different meanings contingent on context, but saying the dead know nothing is referring to people who have passed out of this worldly existence, not those who have not been spiritually reborn. At least, that is how I read it. Someone stated earlier that God is the God of the living, as if that were the end of it, but my Bible states that God is the God of the living and the dead. People rag on about the importance of context and word meaning but then will turn around and assign their own meanings to words, and refuse to acknowledge it.
Click to expand...
So what did Jesus mean when he said "dead" in the "let the dead bury their dead" quote. How can dead people bury dead people?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#135
Jul 3, 2015
61,096
30,220
113
#135
Heyjude said:
So what did Jesus mean when he said "dead" in the "let the dead bury their dead" quote. How can dead people bury dead people?
Click to expand...
Luke 9:59-60 He said to another man, "Follow me." But he replied, "LORD, first let me go and bury my father." Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

The context is someone who wants to tend to worldly business before committing to the Lord. People of the world are dead to Christ. Jesus tells the man to let those who are dead to Him deal with those who have passed from earthly existence.
 
H

Heyjude

Active member
#136
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
43
#136
Magenta said:
Luke 9:59-60 He said to another man, "Follow me." But he replied, "LORD, first let me go and bury my father." Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

The context is someone who wants to tend to worldly business before committing to the Lord. People of the world are dead to Christ. Jesus tells the man to let those who are dead to Him deal with those who have passed from earthly existence.
Click to expand...
So "dead" can mean different things then in scripture.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#139
Jul 3, 2015
61,096
30,220
113
#139
Heyjude said:
Sorry Magenta I am not reading straight today (up since 4am for various reasons). We agree!
Click to expand...
Good morning, and Hey Jude! :D I am glad we agree :) Have some coffee ;) I am just having mine :giggle:

 
H

Heyjude

Active member
#140
Sep 7, 2019
277
121
43
#140
Magenta said:
Good morning, and Hey Jude! :D I am glad we agree :) Have some coffee ;) I am just having mine :giggle:

Click to expand...
Thanks Magenta, too many coffees already. Apparently, a triple expresso three times in the morning is called a "Train Wreck"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.