Has the gift of speaking in tongues ceased? - Tim Conway

[presidente]

OK so...here you are finally NOT dodging the Unicorn analogy...and are also now revealing you have an absolutely absurd view. With your position, NOTHING can be proven to within reason...if it is something outside of someone's direct view. So, creation can't be ascertained within a reasonable, believable degree. Noah's flood..the same thing. The resurrection...the same thing. On and on.

There are plenty of things that can be proven within a reasonable, discernable degree. The unicorn analogy is a terrible one because I do believe in KJV unicorns (that the animal(s) translated as 'unicorn' exists.) There are KJV onlyists around here. You could have used purple people eaters or whatever.

I don't believe there are one-horned ponies on the earth. But can I saw with absolute certainty that there aren't any in some jungle deep in Africa living near a minature Brontosaurus? No, I can't, because I haven't been there. I don't think they exist. But if someone said he went to this place and saw them, and posted in on a forum, I wouldn't have any need to call him a liar. Maybe he believes it. Maybe someone glued a horn to a pony. It doesn't matter.

But spiritual gifts do matter. And we aren't talking about mythical beasts. We are talking about:
1. The teaching of scripture which teaches the Spirit gives the gift of the working of miracles as He wills.
2. Probably thousands of records of miracles, accounts of miracles, and nowadays, a multitude of online videos of a variety of healings, miracles, etc.

We haven't defined 'miracle' whether all supernatural healings fit in that category or not.

I mention evidence for you to examine, like Keener's Miracles which apparently documents a large number of them, historic.

That is dishonest conjecture for the sake of being patronizing. Who said I was "upset"?

Your post read like rants. It's hard to imagine someone who is calm randomly accusing people of lying and dishonesty for no reason. But I suppose you could be calm and have some engrained anti-social and sinful communication habits.

Well no, it's just that you dodged the analogies...but now you've addressed at least one of the analogies...and you're trying simultaneously to now 'lecture' me about my previous (and accurate) observation that you had dodged the analogies - LOL. You're a piece of work. Wow.

More page-filling ranting nonsense.

What does a Bible reference have to do with the fact that any normal-thinking person realizes there are no unicorns in the world today?

The KJV says there are/were 'unicorns'. You picked an awkward example.

Oh my goodness - LOL. What's with these dishonest, patronizing references to being "upset"? And why such a weird assertion...that you don't have to discuss the analogy. What does that even mean? You HAVE now discussed the analogy. And your answer reveals an absolutely bizarre worldview that negates Christian apologetics and negates ANY investigation that relies on ANYTHING other than direct personal contact.

Hello????? The issue here is that there is evidence and you don't acknowledge it exists or examine it. I referred you to a book and a couple of million videos if you want to consider evidence. It's not like if you go into a room of 1000 Christians and two or three, or fifty or 100 of them claim to have seen unicorns. But if you randomly ask Christians if they have seen supernatural healing, miracles, etc., many will say yes. I referred you to a link where the majority of doctors surveyed claimed they'd seen evidence for miracles.

Again, plenty of evidence. It is not unicorns.

Wow. Are you under the impression you've actually concealed your condescending arrogance?

It is difficult to have a civil conversation with you with your accusations. Your plenty condescending yourself. Why don't you try to be civil and I'll try to be civil.

Is that another dodge from you? I have said over and over and over and over...I am NOT talking about, for example, elders anointing with oil and praying for healing from cancer. Those things ARE happening all day long. What is NOT happening is what I have described to you over and over -- Jesus-style miracles. A guy stuck in a wheelchair for forty years...or stone-blind for life...with plainly visible atrophying of the limbs and plainly visible 'dead eyes'.

I certainly don't recall your articulating your viewpoint concisely like this. You objected to a woman getting out of a wheelchair after 22 years after and a brain injury, and walking with help for a while, and then being able to walk on her own, as not being a Jesus' style miracle? How is that less a 'Jesus style miracle' than the once blind man who said he saw men as trees walking. Jesus laid hands on him again. How is it less a Jesus style miracle than the lepers who weren't apparently healed instantly, but on the way to the priest? There were a wide variety of 'Jesus style miracles.'

If you want to say something, say it clearly, without the accusations and comments, railing, and insults, and you can get your point across.

No that is NOT what I am doing. And we're back to this Unicorn analogy...where you think it is impossible to execute a reasonably thorough research of the world we live in and make a reasonably certain determination there are no Unicorns. That's a "critical thinking" problem I cannot help you with.

I am reasonably certain there are no one-horned ponies, but it wouldn't change my world view if one were discovered, and if I met someone who genuinely believed he saw one, it wouldn't bother me that much. The Bible doesn't teach there are one-horned ponies, but it does teach that the Spirit gifts individuals with gifts of healing and the working of miracles as He wills. Therefore, a Christians should not rule out the possibility that such things exist. The Bible also refers to believers healing through the laying on of hands. You shouldn't rule that out.

Why do you not believe that I Corinthians 12 is true? Why do you not believe what the scripture teaches when it says that the Spirit gives individuals the gifts of healing and the working of miracles? What do you now believe these scriptures are true today. Why do you continually dodge this question?

I don't happily make a statement like that but...when someone says they can't prove to a reasonable degree there are no Unicorns...that is completely and totally "off the reservation". That's waaay out there. It just proves how far you're willing to go to defend your tongues-speaking views. I don't believe even YOU believe one can't reasonably disprove Unicorns. Oh well.

Whether there are unicorns, of the variety you mean, or not, it doesn't matter much to me. I don't care. I haven't seen any. I wouldn't think they exist. I believe in 'KJV unicorns.' I don't know if they have one horn or not. The KJV uses either an odd choice of words or a word that changed in meaning.

No, I do not. Theists use logic, reason and evidence. Atheists use illogic. And atheists can't even examine so much as a quadrillionth of the universe. By contrast, I have a reasonable opportunity to come to a reasonably certain conclusion there are no Unicorns on earth and no Jesus-style miracles.

Jesus said, "He that believeth in Me, the works that I do, shall he do also...."
He also said to certain individuals, "According to your faith, be it unto you."

Well, you wouldn't need to monitor all those programs. If anything HAD happened at any of those church services (and it hasn't)...it would be on YouTube with 50 million "views".

Think through the issue of miracles and how many views YouTube videos get. You are a case in point. There are thousands of healing videos on YouTube, but there are individuals who just don't believe miracles happen, so won't look at those videos, or if they do, dismiss them as fakery or deception. So if they see a video of someone being healed, they dismiss it as fake.

There are videos that look like real healing videos on YouTube. Are you telling me, if you saw them, you would automatically believe them? I would imagine the answer is no. The answer is no for a lot of people, too. So no, if there was a real healing on TV or on YouTube, it would not be the case that everyone would believe it, including news people. You seem to think you have superior reasoning skills to me. So put them to work on this matter as well.

This is where I am seeing you don't understand there is a very valid and effective process whereby we can conduct a very systematic and reasonably thorough worldwide search of the available evidence...OR LACK THEREOF.

I'm saying 1) I can't prove unicorns don't exist. You can't either. That doesn't mean they exist. You just can't logically prove the existence of something that isn't real. 2) The unicorn is a bad analogy. Firstly because the KJV Bible uses the word. Secondly, because there is plenty of evidence for miracles throughout history.

Now you insist on 'Jesus style miracles.' That was your objection to the Delia Knox video. Now I see your clarifying that you don't believe in "Jesus style miracles" occuring. But I don't see where you have defined your terms. Is an individual laying hands on someone else in Jesus' name who is healed, but it isn't from totally atrophied legs to jumping up and down... do you think that's possible? Do you believe the passage about the Spirit giving gifts like the working of miracles and the gifts of healing is true?

I believe the Information Age is divine providence for the last days...so that God's people have a reasonable opportunity to debunk all the emerging deception and fakery in the church world these days. BUT...most will be deceived. And most in the church world ARE deceived.

And so the way of debunking that is not even to bother to go through the first page of a YouTube search? The way of debunking that is to not read the book Miracles and read the accounts of miracles throughout the ages, and just say since the Internet exists, the we don't need to consider the evidence for them?

By the way, I don't see you warning ANYONE about anything or any false prophets. You've tied your own hands with your own pseudo-rules about pointing out dangerous 'false teachers'.

What are you talking about? Jesus warned about false prophets and Peter warned about false teachers. Jude, in a similar passage to II Peter 2, warned against false teachers. There are specific characteristics there to look for. Those characteristics do not include being taken in a photograph with one's arms not perfectly perpendicular while standing on a chair, like your blog about Michael W. Smith. (If you'd issue an apology and let me know you took down the blog, I'll stop mentioning it.) The appearance of a bridge in the background behind someone that looks a bit like an eye and reminds you of an occultic symbol with an eye with it is not a Biblical test of a false prophet.

Prophesying in the last days is not an identifying characteristic of a false prophet. Jesus commended those who received a prophet in the name of a prophet. He warned about false prophets. Then He said He would send prophets. In Acts, there were prophets in the church. There were apparently prophets up in Corinth as well. Ephesians 4:11 shows us that Jesus gave prophets after He ascended.

Jesus said you would know them by their fruits, not by what time period they are prophesying in.

Good thing for Paul you weren't there when he busted Peter for his false teaching. You would've charged Paul with "slander" and told him he was headed for the "hottest parts of Hell" and told him he was a satanic "accuser of the brethren". Ouch.

No, but Paul did not accuse Peter of lying just for giving a sincere answer he didn't like. Paul pointed out a problem with Peter's actions that communicated something contrary to the revelation they'd received about the Gentiles. He had a specific issue with Peter and pointed it out.

If you posted something on your blog where you point out a specific (legitimate) point of false doctrine a singer or teacher had taught, I don't have a problem with that. If you suggest a singer might be involved with the occult because his album has a font of his name that resembles a letter from the alphabet used to write Old Norse or some other Germanic language, that's the sort of thing I'll point out.

As I recall, I asked you which part of Hell was hotter, the part for slanderers or the part for people who... then mentioned some nonsense argument of your from your blog, holding arms a certain way or a bridge in the background or whatever. I didn't say you were going to the hottest part of hell. If our places were reversed, you'd accuse someone of lying or dishonesty over that. I didn't say you were going to the hottest part of Hell. But you do accuse brethren. If you are pointing out real and specific sin, that's okay if you do it right. But random accusations of dishonesty isn't doing it right.

The Devil doesn't own the eye shape. God made it. If a bridge behind someone looks like an eye, that doesn't make the person evil. The devil doesn't own whatever angles we can hold our arms out to the side. Doing jumping jacks doesn't make someone evil. Standing on a chair and holding ones arms out to the side, but not completely perpindicular to their body, doesn't make them evil.

Again, if just asking question about whether someone is in the occult is okay, would be okay for me to put a big picture of your face on a billboard with the caption, "Does this man molest kids?" I don't have any evidence for the accusation, but if it's okay for you to ask the questions about Christian celebrities based on such nonsense evidence, why can't I do the same for you? You seem to be dodging this question as well.

Would it be love for me to put your face on a billboard with that question above it?

Where and when were you going to boldly warn people about all the super-popular super-pastors on the scene today? Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, on and on. Or do you not recognize any of these false prophets?

I do not live in the US, and I haven't seen much of these guys in recent years. I heard a Joel Osteen sermon. It's like it wasn't bad, kind of like listening to Zig Zilgar or something, but it didn't have a lot of substance to it. I didn't hear him prophesy anything. I know a little more about Benny Hinn of about 20 years ago. have heard a tape of Benny Hinn prophesying things that did not come to pass after his deadline. But I haven't been talking about these guys in either thread we have been in because that wasn't the topic of our conversation.

I never moved any bar. It's always been about "Jesus-style" miracles.

As I recall, rants against miracles, with not being a Jesus' style miracle as one of many objections. What type of miracles do you allow for. I don't recall your saying you believed in healing when the elders anoint with oil. Do you believe God still heals when we follow 'Confess your faults one to another and pray one for another, that ye may be healed'? Do you believe that them that believe the apostle's message will 'lay hands on the sick and they shall recover?'

Do you believe people can be healed instantly when elders pray for them? If they are healed gradually, do you think it is an 'anti-Jesus miracle'? My impression is that you tend to rail against anything modern that resembles a miracle. I am glad you allow for God to do some healing these days.

The healer guy's behavior was inappropriate. He is deliberately kicking up dust, creating emotional hoopla and manipulation. The classic "traveling salvation show" barnstorming nonsense. To me, it is highly inappropriate and unseemly. I also saw what appeared to be fake miracles and I also saw people undergoing this ultra-creepy 'VooDoo shaking'.

None of that would be proof that God couldn't heal when he laid hands on people. Maybe I haven't seen every video of him that you have. Judas had the power to do miracles, and Balaam prophesied. (I'm not accusing him of being like either.)

The Bible doesn't teach that stirring emotions is sinful. I am not aware of any warnings against it either. There are commands that imply the emotions are to be engaged in certain cases, e.g. 'rejoice.'

Because you do not understand nor accept that many witches and warlocks have infiltrated the conservative church world...therefore, it doesn't fit into your head there are these false prophets operating undercover.

That's quite possible. If they are so sneaky, are we going to figure out who they are by looking for shapes that happen to resemble pagan symbols. That's not very sneaky. Jesus said of false prophets, 'ye shall know them by their fruits.'

Jesus' teaching on false prophets doesn't make his teaching on genuine prophets and genuine healing false. It doesn't make I Corinthians 12 false. Early Christians lived in a time where there were genuine healing, genuine preachers, genuine prophecy, and false prophets out to deceive. Modern Christians live in the same type of world. Proportions of these things may be different at different times.

A pastor friend of mine who I have since helped to "convert" away from Pentecostal/Charismatic practices, first began to realize something was waaay wrong...when he was completely healed of a rather serious case of "athlete's foot" at a Benny Hinn convention. Through discussions with me and doing some of his own reading, he had begun to realize Hinn shows many signs of explicit Luciferian devotion, along with massive and consistent moral failure in his life (not to mention his fleet of private jets, private yachts and super-mansions!). So...when he received this creepy unasked-for "healing", it creeped him out big time and he left that whole scene behind once-for-all.

Maybe the guy sitting next to him who prayed for him had faith in God to heal him.

 

[MattTooFor]

This is your response to 'Jesus is my King'.



That's an amazingly dishonest fabrication.

Wow - the wheels appear to have really, really come off. You are literally trying to indicate I said your comment "Jesus is my King" is what I was referring to when I pointed out your dishonest fabrication?

Your responses are vile.

Wow. Which of my statements were "vile"? That's a false accusation. Quite ironic for someone who gives himself license to describe others as "accuser of the brethren".

We've all heard the story about the emporer's new clothes. We all know the context of the comments. This isn't dishonesty.

You falsely, dishonestly indicated he had said something against "Jesus my King". You owe him an apology.

You didn't post all the comments you made about the preacher that prayed for the woman.

You can dig out any other comments if you want. That's really some ridiculous conspiracy theorizing...to dishonestly imply I'm hiding some other comments.

That preacher's behavior was, to me, immoderate, excessive and unseemly. There IS such a thing as "immoderate, excessive and unseemly" behavior. That's why they have those words in the English language. I consider his behavior to have been inappropriate.

 

[presidente]

Wow - the wheels appear to have really, really come off. You are literally trying to indicate I said your comment "Jesus is my King" is what I was referring to when I pointed out your dishonest fabrication?

Wow. Which of my statements were "vile"? That's a false accusation. Quite ironic for someone who gives himself license to describe others as "accuser of the brethren".

I am a brother in the faith. You foolishly accuse me of 'dishonesty' over the slightest misunderstanding or whatever it is you don't agree with. I'm not trying to deceive anyone. I am corresponding with someone who keeps accusing me of being dishonest. I do consider this sort of thing to be vile behavior. If you call whatever it was you didn't like about that preacher 'unseemly' because of emotionalism or whatever it is, and the KJV calls homosexual sex 'unseemly', you shouldn't get upset if I consider your constant stream of false accusations 'vile.' I do consider it vile, and the way you interact with me on the forum to be consistently obnoxious.

I also notice you dodge the actual theological question at the heart of the discussion. I answer your questions, and you accuse me of dodging because I don't answer the way you want me to, whatever that is. You ignore the most important questions.

You falsely, dishonestly indicated he had said something against "Jesus my King". You owe him an apology.

I'm not going to scroll back pages, but as I recall, he said my emporer had no clothes. I said that my King is Jesus and to be careful what you say about Him. If you think anyone is trying to trick or deceive anyone in that little exchange, you have no business accusing others of not having common sense. You also need to get some common decency when you interact with each other. That's why ask if you get punched in the face, because in some places, if you consistently call someone a liar, especially with no basis for it, you could be looking at a fist fight. In other places, you may get called a name that corresponds with certain body parts or else someone will use the F-word at you. It is dishonorable behavior.

You can dig out any other comments if you want. That's really some ridiculous conspiracy theorizing...to dishonestly imply I'm hiding some other comments.

There is a difference between me and you. You did not include comments from past conversation that I consider relevant. But I did not say that you were 'dishonestly' doing so. Maybe you didn't consider them relevant. That doesn't mean you are trying to lie or decieve people. You just consider other things to be relevant. So I didn't attack your character over that. I just pointed out that you did not include certain aspects of the conversation. That is something you can learn. If someone else doesn't see things the way you do, interprets situtations or ideas differently, or thinks different material is relevant, you should not accuse them of 'dishonesty.' The way you do so is not honorable and it is not a good way to treat fellow human beings. There is also the issue of slander, which is a sin.

That preacher's behavior was, to me, immoderate, excessive and unseemly. There IS such a thing as "immoderate, excessive and unseemly" behavior. That's why they have those words in the English language. I consider his behavior to have been inappropriate.

I don't recall what you are talking about if I ever saw it. Are you referring to something other than the Delia Knox healing video?

Do you think the typical black church service in a Baptist or AME church in the Southeastern US or elsewhere is 'unseemly' also?

 

[notuptome]

notuptome,

That doesn't answer my question. If you still interpret I COrinthians 13 the way I recall you arguing it, that 'the perfect' has come and therefore prophecy has been done away (not how I interpret it) if you see prophecy as preaching, that would have to be done away with, right?

It just does not answer the question the way you want it answered. You are using prophecy like some use baptism. Universal application even where context indicates a different meaning.

Baptism is either water or Holy Spirit context determining which is which. One unto eternal life and one unto testimony. Prophecy is either receiving new revelation or forth telling what has already been given. Pastors exposit the prophecy received while there are no new prophecies. God is still moving in the hearts of men of God. What is being produced has changed because the body's needs have changed.

With your level of education you have knowledge. Now you must convert your knowledge to understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[MattTooFor]

I referred you to a book and a couple of million videos if you want to consider evidence.

This is kind of funny/tragic: You've now ratcheted up the fantasizing and are now claiming you've provided me with millions of videos of evidence...when in fact, you haven't provided a single video of evidence.

How is that less a 'Jesus style miracle' than the once blind man who said he saw men as trees walking.

You have referred to this one single exception from instantaneous healing...over and over and over. And then you try to tack on a couple more...claiming inaccurately that Jesus performed at least "a couple more of these". No, he did not. This was the one single non-instantaneous two-step miracle...and which He did very deliberately and with 100% control...for whatever purpose He had for doing so.

The woman in your video had no such choice. And it took her far more than two simple steps. In fact, we never saw anything close to a full recovery during this healing service. Only later (weeks or months?) did she seem to be walking almost normally.

Every other miracle we know of in Jesus' time...was instantaneous and electrifyingly spectacular. And none of this actually needs to be explained to you.

I am reasonably certain there are no one-horned ponies, but it wouldn't change my world view if one were discovered, and if I met someone who genuinely believed he saw one, it wouldn't bother me that much

Whether or not you're "bothered" about Unicorns has nothing to do with a Unicorn analogy. Why do you keep engaging in this misdirection...other than to obstruct a discussion? Your conduct here is sooo strange...at very best.

I don't see where you have defined your terms.

I don't need to define any terms. You know exactly what I'm talking about: The same kind of spectacular, electrifying miracles performed by Jesus and the disciples that shocked and amazed people into salvation in those days. Unmistakable, undeniable, eye-popping miracles. Read the NT, fella. It's all there. Feign all you want. I'll still be here when you're done.

And so the way of debunking that is not even to bother to go through the first page of a YouTube search?

Are you being intentionally dishonest and untruthful? Or do you not recall my comments from one post to the next? Even if you do not recall what I have clarified to you about my vast Internet travels...it is still dishonest to jump to a conclusion and describe me as having not looked through "the first page of a YouTube search". The dishonesty never ends with you. You ask for civility. Really? Are you joking, or something?

Why do you not believe that I Corinthians 12 is true?

Interesting. You lecture me about "civility" and then pugnaciously declare I don't believe the Bible. Oh and also..you lecture me about "ranting" then use inch high lettering for your comments. Again, I'm wondering if the wheels are coming off? What in the world!

I've already told you: We are not just now discussing the Bible. We're talking about what is or isn't going on in the world out there. Obviously, if there are no Jesus-style miracles occurring (and there aren't, I would say with a reasonable degree of certainty)...then you've misunderstood something about the Bible.

What are you talking about? [asking me about my comment regarding your pseudo-rule of not being allowed to point out specific dangerous false teachers]

Uh...I'm talking about your pseudo-rule which prohibits you from warning others about specific and dangerous false teachers who are preying upon God's people.

Prophesying in the last days is not an identifying characteristic of a false prophet.

Uh...what? Why have you struck up a debate about the definitions and parameters of "prophesying". I do not understand your aimless tangents. What is going on?

Again, if just asking question about whether someone is in the occult is okay, would be okay for me to put a big picture of your face on a billboard with the caption, "Does this man molest kids?" I don't have any evidence for the accusation, but if it's okay for you to ask the questions about Christian celebrities based on such nonsense evidence, why can't I do the same for you? You seem to be dodging this question as well.

Either your reading comprehension is just about nil or you're being obnoxious and dishonest. I will quote my previous answer from post #208:

Again, your feigning is ridiculous and dishonest. There is CAUSE to ask the question "why has Smith inserted a secret occult symbol which indicates "Tyr", a known sign of the Devil...onto his album cover?". A random question pulled randomly out of thin air "are you a pedophile"...really? You claim not to understand the difference? You're dishonest.


Smith's pose on the cover of his 1998 "Christmastime" album has been widely recognized by ex-occultists, occult researchers and by an actual practicing occultist/scholar I was able to correspond with. She routinely confirmed he was engaging in what she described as "runing".

So...you're smarter and more knowledgeable on the subject...than ex-occultists, occult researchers, and an occultist/academic? Wow - that's very, very smart. I'm impressed.

For you to claim you don't see the problem with Smith inserting a secret occult symbol, unknown to his teenage Christian fans...is absurd. Here were this woman's comments with whom I corresponded, and my response (which you would have seen if you had made even a minimal effort to read through my material):

“In this pose, Smith is making the sign of Tyr – the Sky God, who, according to Norse mythology, sacrificed his hand to the Fenris Wolf in order to save others. It is also a warrior symbol of great courage, and of overcoming death. He is standing on an M, which is the rune for Mankind. I don’t see that as sinister but make of it what you will.”


I wrote back the following comments:

“Now, when you say his choice of runes signifies the ‘sky god’ and that this god is being placed above ‘mankind’…that is very significant to me as a student of the Bible. The Scriptures refer to Lucifer as “the prince and power of the air”.

Furthermore, the Bible indicates that for the time being, all of the world is virtually under Lucifer’s dominion (although not complete control). It seems to me, a Luciferian would be very interested in depicting Lucifer as reigning supreme over mankind."

Smith places this Tyr rune all over the place. He uses it as the logo for his "Rocketown" inner city youth club in Nashville:

He has even snuck a Tyr rune into his hairstyling in creepy fashion. Notice the weird three-pronged hair-do on the DVD cover photo below. Rather funny if the whole thing weren't so tragic:

And when you're done chuckling over the hair-do, this next part is positively "hilarious": He parades a steady stream of satanic 'death metal' bands through his supposed "Christian" youth club, Rocketown, in Nashville. Things got so bad, the local TV news team even did a report about it: Hardcore Satanic Metal at Christian Teen Venue

I have collected images of a number of the posters which have advertised the satanic concerts at Smith's Rocketown youth club. Here are a couple:

Something about seeing a depiction of a young woman with a chain plunged into her head, a meathook coming out of the front of her face, and a slashed and bloody throat (the “Promised Threat” poster)…that doesn’t make me think about the message of salvation. Maybe you find it wholesome and uplifting? Maybe you could go to his website and leave him a quick note of praise and thanks.

By the way, these satanic concerts are still going on to this very day.

A some samplings of some of the songs and lyrics from the bands invited to play at Smith's club: For example, the band Toxic Holocaust, had a song entitled "Nuke the Cross". Wow, that Michael Smith guy...what a brother, huh??

And some lyrics from the headliner band, Black Dahlia who have performed repeatedly at Rocketown:

"Join us! Black valor's on our side / Striking with satanic force we'll crush their fabled Christ ... We march upon the enemy with hate, with hate / On this day of victory christian blood will soak these battlefields"

But by all means, if you want to go forward with plans to put up that billboard inquiring about my "pedophilia" which you've now suggested several times...I could help you pick some choice locations around town.

Continuing with all this wonderful uplifting stuff...Smith admitted in an interview some time back, that his favorite band was the Alan Parsons Project, an explicitly satanic group:

And here is Smith's very first album, which he even named the "Michael W. Smith Project":

My, how lovely.

This guy has many, many more occult symbols of various types sneakily inserted onto his CD cover designs, his web sites and other publications. Just read through the rest of that Part One.

I'm wondering - what would a satanic wolf "Christian" leader have to do, to convince you to hold off on that "pedophilia" billboard sign? Maybe throw on a robe and a hood, and sacrifice a goat onstage during the Sunday morning service?

 

[presidente]

This is kind of funny/tragic: You've now ratcheted up the fantasizing and are now claiming you've provided me with millions of videos of evidence...when in fact, you haven't provided a single video of evidence.

I sent you a link to a YouTube search which has over 2 million videos. So I could take a page out of your playbook and accuse you of dishonesty, and have much better grounds for it than you do.

You have referred to this one single exception from instantaneous healing...over and over and over. And then you try to tack on a couple more...claiming inaccurately that Jesus performed at least "a couple more of these". No, he did not. This was the one single non-instantaneous two-step miracle...and which He did very deliberately and with 100% control...for whatever purpose He had for doing so.

God can have a purpose behind non-instaneous healings. I know of two in Christ's ministry, that blind man, and the lepers.

I am not required to give you any links to specific videos. I am not your slave. You are not the king of anyone around here.

The woman in your video had no such choice. And it took her far more than two simple steps. In fact, we never saw anything close to a full recovery during this healing service. Only later (weeks or months?) did she seem to be walking almost normally.

Why don't you give glory to God over that? How many crippled people who haven't been able to walk for over 20 years have you laid hands on who were able to walk a bit immediately, and then able to hobble about. If someone wants to give Peter grief for sinking while walking on water, you'd think they'd have at least walked on water themselves.

Every other miracle we know of in Jesus' time...was instantaneous and electrifyingly spectacular. And none of this actually needs to be explained to you.

People are growing in their faith. Not everyone has the faith of Jesus, which is an understatement to say the least. Peter didn't. He walked on water, but he sank. If someone prays for the sick and they get healed a little more slowly than the ones Jesus prayed for, I'm not going to throw stones at the person, especially if I haven't even done what they are doing. We should give thanks to God when He heals, not mock.

Whether or not you're "bothered" about Unicorns has nothing to do with a Unicorn analogy. Why do you keep engaging in this misdirection...other than to obstruct a discussion? Your conduct here is sooo strange...at very best.

You seem pretty worked up about your poor analogy.

I don't need to define any terms. You know exactly what I'm talking about: The same kind of spectacular, electrifying miracles performed by Jesus and the disciples that shocked and amazed people into salvation in those days. Unmistakable, undeniable, eye-popping miracles. Read the NT, fella. It's all there. Feign all you want. I'll still be here when you're done.

There are lots of ways people can be healed, and there may be some debate over a 'miracle.' You were calling a partial healing that occurred in stages or over time, 'anti-Jesus' several pages back.

nd so the way of debunking that is not even to bother to go through the first page of a YouTube search?

Are you being intentionally dishonest and untruthful?

Nope. Neither one. Are you being intentionally rude and obnoxious.

If you have gone through YouTube claims of miracles, then you shouldn't claim there is no evidence. You should ask yourself whether you are the one being dishonest in these discussions. There is evidence to examine. It is not like there are no claims, no testimonies, no one who appears to have been healed.

You can 'move the bar.' You don't want to define miracles. If you see one, then it has to be someone atrophied in a wheelchair or whatever.

Or do you not recall my comments from one post to the next? Even if you do not recall what I have clarified to you about my vast Internet travels...it is still dishonest to jump to a conclusion and describe me as having not looked through "the first page of a YouTube search". The dishonesty never ends with you. You ask for civility. Really? Are you joking, or something?

I don't know if you looked at the videos on the page I sent you. You continue on with your dishonorable accusations.

I can have civil conversations with people I disagree with strongly on issues. How often are you able to do this?

Interesting. You lecture me about "civility" and then pugnaciously declare I don't believe the Bible

I asked you a question, which you continually dodged. I Corinthians 12 teaches that the Spirit gives the gift of working of miracles to individuals in the body of Christ. You claim such things have ceased. Why don't you believe I Corinthians 12. i have challenged you to show me from the Bible that such things have ceased. You have dodged this also. I answered your questions about unicorns several times, and you accused me of dodging. And then you accuse me of dishonesty.

If you believe what I Corinthians 12 says, that the Spirit gives individuals the gifts of healing and the gift of the working of miracles, then say you believe it and that is fine. If you don't believe it, say that. You can give your own explanation. Believing the scripture is at the heart of this disagreement.

Uh...I'm talking about your pseudo-rule which prohibits you from warning others about specific and dangerous false teachers who are preying upon God's people.

If you have something of substance, that's fine. I tend to point out those who don't believe the resurrection, promote sexual immorality, etc, rather than those who happen to have a bridge that looks like an eye in the background.

Uh...what? Why have you struck up a debate about the definitions and parameters of "prophesying". I do not understand your aimless tangents. What is going on?

Try to follow the argument. It's not a tangent. It's related to the issue. If spiritual gifts occur in the last days, that doesn't mean there are fake. Jesus of true and false prophets that would come, not just false prophets.

Either your reading comprehension is just about nil or you're being obnoxious and dishonest. I will quote my previous answer from post #208:

You have no right to accuse me of being dishonest. That is the message where you quoted my question and did not answer it but talked about Michael W. Smith. I asked if it is right to ask such a question on a billboard (and I'll point out again, I have no reason to accuse you of such a thing based on any information I have seen in our conversations or our website.)

Again, your feigning is ridiculous and dishonest. There is CAUSE to ask the question "why has Smith inserted a secret occult symbol which indicates "Tyr", a known sign of the Devil...onto his album cover?".

This is not an issue of dishonesty. The issue is your credibility. Why should I believe what you say about Tyre? Did you consult a witch to get it? If so, should I trust the judgment of someone who consults a witch? Should I trust the witch? This sure seems like obscure stuff. The shape of his arms might mean that to an individual who told you about this pagan stuff.

How do you know about the secret letter of Tyr? Did you consult a practicioner of occultic rituals to find it out? What was it you said about Tyr being a 'sky god.' I read a little about this when I was a kid. One of the days of the week in English is named after this false deity. What I recall was that he was supposed to be one of their gods of war. Wikipedia also says he was associated with law. He was supposed to have lost a hand in a battle with a wolf, maybe one of Loki's kids in the mythology.

The really weird thing is your thought process. I would imagine Michael W. Smith is signed with a label. Is he a photographer? How does he stand on the chair and run and take the picture at the same time. I've just done a wedding photo shoot and I've seen photo shoots on TV a bit. The photographer tells the guy what to do. The chances of putting some font in art that happens to be something in some occult tradition by random chances seems pretty likely. And designers and artists familiar with Norse art or even paganism may not think of symbols they put in as religious. But it's possible someone involved in the design is a pagan wanted to put in some pagan art in there. That's a bad thing, but to jump from there to the hinting that Smith is involved in the occult and the other insinuations is a huge leap.

I've heard some criticisms of the Christian music industry, that the secular labels bought out the Christian labels years ago. A friend of mine was in a music group that got in a wreck just as they were preparing to sign and it didn't happen. He shared some of his concerns. There are a lot of other people in the process for you to be suspicious of when you see symbols in a label.

And again, what is a symbol for the occult to you may be a bunch of high school kids doing jumping jacks. Those kids make that shape that resembles a T with their arms, too. Do you have one of those chairs that looks like the symbol for mankind to you at home? Is it a sin for Christians to do jumping jacks or to have a chair shaped like that?

A random question pulled randomly out of thin air "are you a pedophile"...really? You claim not to understand the difference? You're dishonest.

No, both seem pretty foolish. About as foolish as randomly accusing people of being dishonest while hiding behind a computer.

Smith's pose on the cover of his 1998 "Christmastime" album has been widely recognized by ex-occultists, occult researchers and by an actual practicing occultist/scholar I was able to correspond with. She routinely confirmed he was engaging in what she described as "runing".

So...you're smarter and more knowledgeable on the subject...than ex-occultists, occult researchers, and an occultist/academic? Wow - that's very, very smart. I'm impressed.

See, you don't cite sources, and you don't come off as credible. This sounds like hearsay to me. If you cited sources, this might seem a bit more credible.

But if a label is involved and Smith didn't design his own cover, then it doesn't make sense to conclude that he's involved in the occult. It would make more sense to look at labels by the same designers, photographers, label, or whatever for a pattern. Someone involved in the process could be involved in the occult or could just think Germanic art is cool.

For you to claim you don't see the problem with Smith inserting a secret occult symbol, unknown to his teenage Christian fans...is absurd.

I think it's pretty absurd to think that Christian singers who are relatively famous design their own album covers. I could be wrong. If I am, let me know. Do you have any evidence that Michael W. Smith developed his own album cover?

The picture of an arch-shaped bridge behind Kay Arthur seemed the silliest thing I saw on your site. Most people don't see pagan symbols in all the shapes around them.

If you take it too far, you can think basic shapes kindergarten kids learn about are evil, that jumping jacks are evil, etc. I'd be surprised if some form of occultic art doesn't make use of rectangles. If your computer screen is shaped like a rectangle, I suppose you could call using the computer occultic, too, if you take it that far.

Here were this woman's comments with whom I corresponded, and my response (which you would have seen if you had made even a minimal effort to read through my material):

“In this pose, Smith is making the sign of Tyr – the Sky God, who, according to Norse mythology, sacrificed his hand to the Fenris Wolf in order to save others. It is also a warrior symbol of great courage, and of overcoming death. He is standing on an M, which is the rune for Mankind. I don’t see that as sinister but make of it what you will.”

I didn't read all your pages on your site. The openers though, shapes, blaming artists for the design of their albums to the extent that you insinuate they may be involved in the occult, seemed petty to me. I stopped reading when I got to the Kay Arthur comment. Some of your arguments undermind your credibility.

There is an external link on what you posted here that links to other sites. You claim that Smith is associated with some kind of club and that bands with Satanic lyrics play there. I don't know anything about the guy. I just have your word to take for it, a man who doesn't employ much ethics or reason when it comes to accusing others of dishonesty. You have presented yourself as someone who has a lack of credibility from my perspective, and you don't site your sources. You may have some real information there, but it doesn't look convincing, especially after some of those early arguments.

If someone claims to be a Christian and owns a club or promotes it and the club has bands with anti-Christ lyrics playing there, I'd agree that's wrong.

Did you consult a witch or someone otherwised involved in the occult to get the goods on Michael W Smith? If you consult someone who interacts with demons to get evidence against someone else, couldn't they feed you misinformation to stir up strife and discord? How many sources do you have for these pagan symbols?

The Norse culture did leave some art behind, and there are probably art and design people who like those shapes. Have you researched to find out if there are people in design who use runes because they like them as art without a religious intention? Do you have any other source that Tyr was supposed to be a 'sky god'. I'd never heard that.

 

[DJ2]

Wow. That's an amazingly dishonest fabrication. And an inappropriately threatening 'tone', on top of that! Wow, again.

He never said anything about Jesus the King. He is referring to the story of "The Emperor's New Who Clothes"...and you know it.

At this point, you're wasting everyone's time. You sit there next to your naked emperor, wagging a reproving finger as if WE'RE the ones who have been caught with out hand in the False Claims Cookie Jar. No, YOU are the one bereft of valid claims. Where you get the nerve, I have no idea.

Opposed? there you go again with the straw me. No one is "opposed". There's nothing to be "opposed" to.

And not everyone interprets the Bible to your liking. Many people disagree with Pentecostal interpretations.

Yes, there are, actually.

DJ2...FYI, here was my response about that situation:

I suspect that presidente does not understand the meaning of the idiom the Emperor's New Clothes. If you are reading this, the emperor is not "Jesus is my King". The emperor is the belief in the modern day miraculous. Pentecostals claim the miraculous is active today as it was during the New Testament. It plainly is not, yet Pentecostals will ignore reality and insist that it is happening. Purposely putting their heads so far in the ground that they can claim not to see the absurdity of their message.

 

[MattTooFor]

I sent you a link to a YouTube search which has over 2 million videos. So I could take a page out of your playbook and accuse you of dishonesty, and have much better grounds for it than you do.

I would want 2 million videos of evidence. Not just 2 million videos. I have done my researching decades ago. If you want my attention, you would need to send me just one video. Not 2 million. Come on, guy.

I know of two in Christ's ministry, that blind man, and the lepers.

I am not required to give you any links to specific videos. I am not your slave. You are not the king of anyone around here.

Which healing of lepers was that? The "ten lepers" were healed instantly. Good grief - you're seething. I don't need you to be my "slave"...nor view me as a "king". Wow. Talk about needing to "calm down". I am simply trying to have a discussion here. You are responsible to provide evidence for your beliefs. That's how Christianity works.

Why don't you give glory to God over that?

You're setting up a silly, misdirectional 'straw man' in suggesting I'm against her recovery. Good grief - I don't need your condescending admonishment. I am simply saying...and have said over and over...I gave you the opportunity to cherry-pick the most convincing "miracle" from YouTube...and it was a miserable failure, in terms of Jesus-style miracles.

If someone prays for the sick and they get healed a little more slowly than the ones Jesus prayed for, I'm not going to throw stones at the person,

Who are you arguing with? I believe in "praying for the sick". Why do you pretend you're debating me about that...when I've repeatedly explained this? And then falsely accuse me of "throwing stones"? Are you now an 'accuser of the brethren"?

There are lots of ways people can be healed, and there may be some debate over a 'miracle.' You were calling a partial healing that occurred in stages or over time, 'anti-Jesus' several pages back.

No, that's a lie. A dishonest misrepresentation. And it is a dishonesty I have already previously pointed out and which you are peddling once again. I am not "anti-Jesus".

And there is no real "debate" here: the sign miracles were spectacular, electrifying and instantaneous. Those are not going on today. You have zero evidence. And if there were something going on...there'd be an electric buzz going through the Charismatic community. There'd be a documented story and/or related video and/or photos. You could find a video with a "view" count in the dozens of millions. None of this exists.

Nope. Neither one. Are you being intentionally rude and obnoxious.

Yep. It IS dishonest ...to describe me as having not even checked out the "first page"...when you know no such thing.

If you have gone through YouTube claims of miracles, then you shouldn't claim there is no evidence. You should ask yourself whether you are the one being dishonest in these discussions. There is evidence to examine. It is not like there are no claims,

Did you mean to say "if you haven't gone through YouTube claims"? So...we're back to these Unicorn/moon-travel/flat-earth analogies. You don't get it. You're insisting I have to view every single video in the world where a claim of miracles has been made.

There are many, many, many people these days...who believe and claim the earth is flat. They have huge web sites. They have a very developed doctrine and have many, many videos out there. I don't need to watch every single of their videos, nor read every one of their documents...to come to a conclusion they're wrong. That's not how research works.

I have long, long ago assessed the Charismatic and Pentecostal worlds and beliefs. I still keep and eye out for any emerging phenomenon...any story with a 'buzz' of associated excitement, if that were ever to happen...but it hasn't. Yes, I'll check in on the videos once in a while, as I did here in conjunction with this debate. It's a literal horror show. The video with the highest viewer count (something over 2 million) appeared to be literally satanic. Satanic agents who posture as "Christian"...is my guess as to what I was looking at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7a5P1V8cHA

In fact, I hesitate to even provide the link. But it was the one with the highest viewer count. View at your discretion.

Having said that, there ARE some very remarkable stories of healing that I have run into and that one can find in a YouTube search. But no "sign miracles" of instantaneous zapping into 100% recovery from total paralysis or blindness...where one can see obvious atrophying and/or "dead eyes"...the way Jesus and the disciples "healed". I found this one to be potentially credible...of a young girl incrementally recovering from Cerebral Palsy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhRobcU7RqE

How do you know about the secret letter of Tyr?

Bro, it's on the Internet. Everybody and their grandmother can look it up at will. But a decade ago, when I corresponded with this occultist/academic person, it wasn't common Internet knowledge. Even Wikipedia explains that "Tyr" was considered the chief pagan god among the ancient germanic and nordic peoples: "he was once considered the father of the gods" (Wikipedia). As Bible students we know who the chief pagan god is in this world - the Devil. And even if Tyr was only a "lieutenant" in the demonic hierarchy...would that make it any better? Not at all.

The really weird thing is your thought process. I would imagine Michael W. Smith is signed with a label. Is he a photographer? How does he stand on the chair and run and take the picture at the same time.

Well again, that's deliberate dishonesty and deliberate obnoxiousness: Feigning as though you can't understand how Smith might have directed the photographer to take the photos he wanted. OR...that both Smith and the photographer were in on it.

The chances of putting some font in art that happens to be something in some occult tradition by random chances seems pretty likely.

Well...but when those Runes appear on a 1986 album...and then 12 years later, appear once again on another Smith album...and then appear yet again, as his Rocketown "youth club" logo...and then he weirdly goes to the trouble of displaying the symbol even in a hairstyling on his DVD cover photo (LOL)...to claim there is no connection and that this is all a "coincidence"...pure silliness.

Your attempt to explain away Smith's overt act of climbing up onto a chair and conspicuously posing his body in the shape of a secret occult symbol...is pure nonsense. Amazing nonsense.

And your slip is showing when, yet again, you are rushing to push the responsibility onto the photographer. If nothing 'secretive' and inappropriate is happening...why have you for the second time tried to argue preemptively that is was the photographer?

By the time 1998 rolled around (the time of this album cover) Smith was a 'superstar'. One of the most powerful people in Nashville's music industry (according to a Nashville music exec I talked to on the phone). Comparatively, the photographer would have been a 'gofer', fair to say.

And again, what is a symbol for the occult to you may be a bunch of high school kids doing jumping jacks. Those kids make that shape that resembles a T with their arms, too. Do you have one of those chairs that looks like the symbol for mankind to you at home? Is it a sin for Christians to do jumping jacks or to have a chair shaped like that?

Utterly obnoxious nonsense. Are you literally denying there are such things as "occult symbols" - LOL? Smith wasn't doing "jumping jacks". He was posing in the shape of an occult symbol. And the fact you try to shift the responsibility for the pose onto the photographer, speaks for itself.

No, both seem pretty foolish. About as foolish as randomly accusing people of being dishonest while hiding behind a computer.

Asking why Smith is posing in the shape of a Rune and had that same Rune on a previous album cover and uses that same Rune for his youth club logo (etc.)...is a "foolish" question? The question is not legit? We shouldn't even ask the question? You have no curiosity about why his published materials and photos repeatedly display the sign of an ancient chief pagan god? Do YOU have the answer as to why he would do such a thing?

And your pugnacity is amazing. You are literally lusting for violence. You make these violent references over and over. Why would I need to "hide behind a computer"? What violent plans do you have in mind? You have made repeated and ridiculous references to "fist fights". Wow - the wheels are really, really off.

if a label is involved and Smith didn't design his own cover, then it doesn't make sense to conclude that he's involved in the occult.

Again, your slip is showing. Only if Smith didn't design the cover is he not involved in occultism? OK so, you're admitting the obvious: This cover design is strong indication of occultism. An occult symbol is indicative of occultism. 2+2=4. Good grief.

Why would that be so 'outrageously unlikely'? Occultism prevails all over the world. The entire world is satanic and "lies within the power of the evil one" (1John 5:19).

It would make more sense to look at labels by the same designers, photographers, label, or whatever for a pattern. Someone involved in the process could be involved in the occult or could just think Germanic art is cool.

OK, now you're getting somewhere. Yes, I believe we should examine all possibilities. That's exactly what I have said in my article...but which you never got to in your sloppy, slipshod handling of my writing...before you started shooting from the hip with your sloppy slander against me. Not that it concerns me. Just saying.

But yes, when you make the above comment, you are more and more acknowledging there is plain indication of occult allegiance coming from someone or someones.

So...I am evil and a satanic "accuser of the brethren" and a slanderer...and "vile" and "dishonorable" and all the myriad of other names you have called me....all because I express concern about the appearance of satanic symbolism on the cover of a Christian album?

You're trying to describe ANY discussion of this controversial occult display on Smith's published materials...as grievously wrongful. By all rights, there should be a billboard in town, asking whether I'm a pedophile. How do YOU propose we go forward with a discussion and/or an investigation and/or research? You tell me. Are you saying to drop it, leave it alone, walk away silently? You're trying to 'rig' this up so that ANY discussion is immediately categorized as 'evil behavior'.

The picture of an arch-shaped bridge behind Kay Arthur seemed the silliest thing I saw on your site.

I went far, far beyond a discussion of that painting and I clearly stated there that I made no conclusion about the painting. I created a context of evidence of occult symbol display with Arthur...which you are dishonestly omitting and are dishonestly suggesting I was conclusive about the painting.

You can laugh, chortle and mock all you want...but the simple REALITY is (and one that every Bible student should routinely be aware of...and which you apparently are NOT)...is that there ARE occultists in the world...they ARE very sneaky...they DO pose as "Christians"...they ARE infiltrating the Christian world...and that IS a direct forewarning from Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.

I ask you again - if you don't like the lists of suspects and/or "persons of interest" I have compiled...how about YOU show us where these hidden wolves are? You can spot NO hidden wolves who are spectacularly concealed and have fooled 99% of the Christian community? So...there are now wolves who can't be spotted immediately?. Name one wolf with a very successful "sheep" appearance whose "wolf" status would be a shocking surprise to most.

You claim that Smith is associated with some kind of club and that bands with Satanic lyrics play there. I don't know anything about the guy.

Wow - the feigning is ridiculous. As though you're unable to fathom the 'deep mystery' of Smith's youth club in downtown Nashville. Just google "Michael W. Smith Rocketown". It'll take four seconds - LOL.

He founded the club.

He, once again, uses this satanic symbol for his club's logo.

He has invited a steady stream of satanic rock bands who sing songs with satanic lyrics. Rocketown has hosted these bands for over two decades.

I documented these bands and their lyrics and the posters...which are displayed at Rocketown and on the Internet.

The controversy became so high profile, it even spilled onto the local TV news (as I previously linked)...and through a number of "Internet magazine" articles:

Rocketown criticized for hosting 'anti-Christian bands'

Christian club Rocketown plays host to night of ‘satanic’ rock

Rocketown Goes Satanic?


There is NO potential connecting of the dots? You have NO interest in why he displays occult symbols and then invites satanic bands to his club? I am a satanically behaving "accuser of the brethren" for expressing deep, deep, deep concern over these things? You provide NO support...refuse to put your 'shoulder into it' to stand with other believers in confronting this kind of thing? And instead treat me to grinding, seething, sneering disdain...and fantasize about a billboard that suggests I'm a pedophile?

Tyr was supposed to be a 'sky god'. I'd never heard that.

It's all over the Internet nowadays. Just google "Tyr sky god".

 

[MattTooFor]

I suspect that presidente does not understand the meaning of the idiom the Emperor's New Clothes. If you are reading this, the emperor is not "Jesus is my King". The emperor is the belief in the modern day miraculous. Pentecostals claim the miraculous is active today as it was during the New Testament. It plainly is not, yet Pentecostals will ignore reality and insist that it is happening. Purposely putting their heads so far in the ground that they can claim not to see the absurdity of their message.

I don't know what he understands. He does a lot of 'feigning'. I can't keep up with all the feigning. Who wouldn't be familiar with the "Emperor's Clothes" story? The guy was dishonestly taking offense...with this ridiculous posturing that he supposedly believed you were referring to Jesus sacrilegiously.

Yes, the Pentecostal mindset is an amazing phenomenon. I'm glad there is someplace to have these frank discussions. I hope 'seekers' and thinkers are looking in on this thread. Although...it's kind of veering over to the is "wolves in sheep's clothing" topic. Also important stuff, in my view. I tried to get the guy to go over to my dedicated thread but...he's "too cool for school" apparently. So, here we are.

I know some believers may be somewhat unsettled to see such an intense debate but...we are headed ever deeper into the dark hours. Believers are going to have to cancel their Starbucks membership, their trips to Disneyland, all our usual comforts...and get ready to face the Antichrist and his 'false prophets" and all their "signs and wonders" with which they will deceive the majority of believers, according to Jesus' warnings.

Imagine there is this HUGE phalanx of popularly known and revered (yet false and satanic) "Christian" leaders...all lining up with this world leader...and they're cranking out all these staggering signs and wonders and miracles...and enticing people to 'sign up' for the New World Order (iow, take the mark of the beast)...

...Pentecostals and Charismatics will have ZERO defense against such enticements, particularly when imprisonment, torture and death are the alternatives.
'
The Stockholm Syndrome can kick in very quickly under such circumstances: The soothing false enticements of the false Christian leaders, their spectacularly "confirming" signs and wonders...and the death camps and torture prisons waiting in the wings. It's no wonder Jesus prophecies the majority of believers ("believers") will fall away to eternal doom.

By the way, it's not that anyone "loses" their salvation, in my understanding. Just that they will turn out not have been genuine believers in the first place. That's how I interpret the Olivet Discourse...where Jesus obviously indicates there are those "believers" who formerly "loved" the Lord but then tragically fall from the faith.

What's your take on some of this stuff? I know we have some minor differences. I'm always open to solid insights.

 

[DJ2]

I don't know what he understands. He does a lot of 'feigning'. I can't keep up with all the feigning. Who wouldn't be familiar with the "Emperor's Clothes" story? The guy was dishonestly taking offense...with this ridiculous posturing that he supposedly believed you were referring to Jesus sacrilegiously.

Yes, the Pentecostal mindset is an amazing phenomenon. I'm glad there is someplace to have these frank discussions. I hope 'seekers' and thinkers are looking in on this thread. Although...it's kind of veering over to the is "wolves in sheep's clothing" topic. Also important stuff, in my view. I tried to get the guy to go over to my dedicated thread but...he's "too cool for school" apparently. So, here we are.

I know some believers may be somewhat unsettled to see such an intense debate but...we are headed ever deeper into the dark hours. Believers are going to have to cancel their Starbucks membership, their trips to Disneyland, all our usual comforts...and get ready to face the Antichrist and his 'false prophets" and all their "signs and wonders" with which they will deceive the majority of believers, according to Jesus' warnings.

Imagine there is this HUGE phalanx of popularly known and revered (yet false and satanic) "Christian" leaders...all lining up with this world leader...and they're cranking out all these staggering signs and wonders and miracles...and enticing people to 'sign up' for the New World Order (iow, take the mark of the beast)...

...Pentecostals and Charismatics will have ZERO defense against such enticements, particularly when imprisonment, torture and death are the alternatives.
'
The Stockholm Syndrome can kick in very quickly under such circumstances: The soothing false enticements of the false Christian leaders, their spectacularly "confirming" signs and wonders...and the death camps and torture prisons waiting in the wings. It's no wonder Jesus prophecies the majority of believers ("believers") will fall away to eternal doom.

By the way, it's not that anyone "loses" their salvation, in my understanding. Just that they will turn out not have been genuine believers in the first place. That's how I interpret the Olivet Discourse...where Jesus obviously indicates there are those "believers" who formerly "loved" the Lord but then tragically fall from the faith.

What's your take on some of this stuff? I know we have some minor differences. I'm always open to solid insights.

I will say your defense of this issue is plainly cogent. It pained me to read presidente's replies to such simple questions.

On my views about where the world is headed, I too believe the world is headed into darker hours. Whether or not these are the finals days I cannot say. Morality has ebbed and flowed throughout history, there were many periods in the past that were as evil as today. This is why we must keep our lamps full of oil. I do believe that our society is quickly turning away from God and embracing the evil of Satan. As this happens many people who profess Christianity will deny their faith simply to be part of the majority. We who will not bend a knee to this corruption will suffer in different forms. How fast this happens I do not know.

You are correct about people needing to see threads like this. It may be harsh but there is a time to allow ignorance to expose itself and a time to forcefully expose bogus reasoning. You are also correct on the Charismatics being quick to surrender to the coming Anti-Christ. They will be the first to fall.

On the issue of losing your salvation, I do believe people can have their names blotted from the Book of Life. But for the vast majority you are correct, they have nothing to "lose". No two people can agree on all things but a desire for truth, no matter where it may lead you can be a common ground for fellowship.

 

[presidente]

Guys, I understand the reference to the emporer has new clothes. Since Jesus sent the Spirit and Jesus predicted some of the works that those who believed would do, and those He sent taught about these gifts, rejecting that they occur is directed at Jesus. Also, Jesus is my King, not the Pentecostal movement. D12 was unfair to refer to that as 'my emporer.' Hence the comment.

Yes, the Pentecostal mindset is an amazing phenomenon. I'm glad there is someplace to have these frank discussions. I hope 'seekers' and thinkers are looking in on this thread. Although...it's kind of veering over to the is "wolves in sheep's clothing" topic. Also important stuff, in my view. I tried to get the guy to go over to my dedicated thread but...he's "too cool for school" apparently. So, here we are. [/quote

I've been busy and haven't been looking into new threads. Stupid comments like that last one are enough reason to stay out of your thread. You assume what my motives are and accuse me of having them, along with constant accusations of being 'dishonest' in contexts where it makes no sense. That's rude behavior. It's either irrational or dishonest. I'll not assume you are dishonest. Maybe you don't take the time to think through the fact that other people have reasons besides the ones that pop into your head. If you combine that with a wreckless propensity to accuse others, then you can easily accuse others falsely.

Imagine there is this HUGE phalanx of popularly known and revered (yet false and satanic) "Christian" leaders...all lining up with this world leader...and they're cranking out all these staggering signs and wonders and miracles...and enticing people to 'sign up' for the New World Order (iow, take the mark of the beast)...

...Pentecostals and Charismatics will have ZERO defense against such enticements, particularly when imprisonment, torture and death are the alternatives.

I think you are arguing against a stereotype you have in your mind. I've seen good rebuttals of WOF theology from Pentecostals. One can believe in spiritual gifts and exercise discernment.

I've got news for you. Dangers when it comes to discernment aren't all waiting at the end of the age. You hold to a flawed theology when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit. The proper Biblical view is that there are true and false prophets, that there would be true and false prophets after Christ's ascension. There are true miracles and also lying signs and wonders. There are spiritual gifts given to members of the body 'as the Spirit wills' and there are also deception.

Accepting everything supernatural as evidence of God's approval leads to error. But rejecting miracles, healing, etc. through gifts because they didn't happen in a certain time period can certainly lead to error as well. It also leads to rejecting God's work in this age. The Lord Jesus' opponents in Matthew 12 rejected the work of the Spirit. They went so far, as to call the Holy Spirit, by Whom Jesus was casting out devils, Beelzebub, the prince of devils. Jesus warned them that whoever blasphemed the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. They didn't have to wait until the end of time to be able to sin.

Paul also warned 'Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.' If you shouldn't reject prophecies out of hand, but rather test them first, then why would it be acceptable to God to reject miracles or healing out of hand?

You saw a woman get out of a wheelchair after 22 years, but because she hobbled a bit at first and needed a little help to walk (but only for a relatively short period of time), you referred to it as an 'anti-Jesus miracle.' You've also lambasted the man who prayed for her for whatever stylistic reasons you have. You argue that no Jesus-style miracles are going on. But, finally, you admitted that people still get healed after the elders lay hands on them. I'm assuming you don't believe these are what you consider 'Jesus style' miracles that are instant. If that is the case, then you need to allow for the idea that some healing from God isn't totally instantaneous. And if someone gets out of a wheelchair after 22 years and doesn't walk perfectly right at first, you shouldn't attack that healing. That is a foolish thing to do.

And there is lots of evidence for miracles and healing on YouTube. It may not all be legit. But it does not make sense to say one believes the Bible, then reject the whole lot without examining them. Most cessationists I encounter allow some room for miracles according to God's providence, or however they want to put it. Roger, notuptome, holds views I would consider to be more on the cessationist side of things (don't know if he'd use that label), but he realizes there is no scripture to say that the gift of miracles or the gifts of healing have ceased.

You say these gifts have ceased. I've challenged you to show me where the Bible teaches such a thing a number of times. I haven't ever seen a response from you on this. This is a key issue. If you realize that the Bible teaches that the Spirit gives the gift of the working of miracles and gifts of healing to individuals in the body of Christ, then you shouldn't reject the possibility out of hand. Out of respect for scripture, you wouldn't alledge that no Jesus-style miracles are occuring because the Spirit could be enabling individuals to do so, without your knowledge or permission. It would also effect how you interpret testimonies, even videos of healings, and whether you could claim none of them contain these kinds of miracles without examining them.

 

[MattTooFor]

Guys, I understand the reference to the emporer has new clothes. Since Jesus sent the Spirit and Jesus predicted some of the works that those who believed would do, and those He sent taught about these gifts, rejecting that they occur is directed at Jesus. Also, Jesus is my King, not the Pentecostal movement. D12 was unfair to refer to that as 'my emporer.' Hence the comment.

To disagree with you is not to disagree with Jesus and to assail Jesus. The inappropriate presumption is mind-boggling.

And again,the shifting, the fibbing, the fudging, the shaving. No end. Let me refresh your memory: You originally copied and pasted his remark about the emperor...and directly below that, made the false charge he was directly assailing Jesus and committing horrific sacrilege. Now you change your story. It's just unbelievable. Here was the exchange:

DJ2: "... the Bible speaking in tongues does not prove anyone today is speaking in tongues. This is the part you don't seem to grasp. Do your soul a blessing and admit you[r] emperor is naked."

Your direct response: "Jesus is my King. Be careful what you say about Him."

Where had he "said" anything about Jesus? Obviously, you were unfairly trying to interpret his remark about a "naked emperor" as a remark about Jesus. NOW...you freely and breezily switch your story around. There is no end to this stuff with you. I am going to call you on it and call you on it and call you on it. There is something about that kind of slippery, shifty untruthfulness that just "chaps my hide" (as they say in Texas - LOL).

constant accusations of being 'dishonest' in contexts where it makes no sense.

Oh but no, my friend. My complaints make a lot of sense. I very, very carefully explain in exact detail how and where you are being dishonest.

But...let's see...you have previously indicated (among at least a dozen other insulting description - "stupid" "fool" etc.) I am headed for the "hottest hell"...and that I am an "accuser of the brethren"...a satanic designation, a satanic description AND one of the actual names for Satan. So...

...if I deserve to have a billboard asking pure out-of-the-blue unprovoked, non sequitur questions of an unspeakable nature because I merely ASK if there might be occult allegiances going on...

...should someone put up a billboard where you live...but with an actual statement of unspeakable nature (I won't repeat your ungodly coarse references here), instead of just a question...since you have DECLARED me to be "satanic"?
Just wondering. Food for further friendly discussion. (Ah, I'm thinking of the old hymn right now: "Oh what fellowship, oh what joy divine...". Sigh.)

you referred to it as an 'anti-Jesus miracle.'

Nope. That's a lie. You're a liar. For someone who is quite unhappy to have complaints of untruthfulness laid at his feet.,..you sure are digging a deep hole.

You say these gifts have ceased. I've challenged you to show me where the Bible teaches such a thing

It doesn't matter what you think the Bible teaches. If this stuff is not happening anywhere...then you obviously have misunderstood the Bible. I imagine we'll eventually get to it...if you can start toning down all the shifty, fudgy, fibbiness.

 

[presidente]

To disagree with you is not to disagree with Jesus and to assail Jesus. The inappropriate presumption is mind-boggling.

Thou hast said. Then act accordingly, not only toward me, but toward other Christians. Jesus asked Paul why He persecuted Him. Jesus said to the disciples that if they did certain good works to 'the least of these My brethren' that they had done so unto Him.

And again,the shifting, the fibbing, the fudging, the shaving. No end. Let me refresh your memory: You originally copied and pasted his remark about the emperor...and directly below that, made the false charge he was directly assailing Jesus and committing horrific sacrilege. Now you change your story. It's just unbelievable.

Sorry, man. Your comments and accusations show a lack of comprehension on your part. You should consider that possibility before accusing others. Not just this time, but repeatedly. You just accuse, accuse, accuse over nothing. Anyone should be able to see what I am saying and what he is saying. We disagree over who my 'emporer'/King is. I reject his metaphor. Jesus is my King. That was the point of my comment. Jesus is my King, not an emporer with new clothes. I believe the Biblical teaching of scripture on miracles, including the teaching of Jesus and the teaching of the apostles He sent. That is the issue.

This is not an issue of deception, lying or fibbing. The issue is your inability to follow a conversation and your readiness to accuse others of dishonesty.

Here was the exchange:

DJ2: "... the Bible speaking in tongues does not prove anyone today is speaking in tongues. This is the part you don't seem to grasp. Do your soul a blessing and admit you[r] emperor is naked."

Your direct response: "Jesus is my King. Be careful what you say about Him."

Where had he "said" anything about Jesus? Obviously, you were unfairly trying to interpret his remark about a "naked emperor" as a remark about Jesus. NOW...you freely and breezily switch your story around.

My answers have been consistent throughout this little exchange. He was attributing the wrong 'emporer' to me, and I took issue with that.

There is no end to this stuff with you. I am going to call you on it and call you on it and call you on it. There is something about that kind of slippery, shifty untruthfulness that just "chaps my hide" (as they say in Texas - LOL).

Your grasping at straws to accuse me and others based on nonsense chaps my hide, too.

If you live in Texas and go around people a liar or dishonest like you do on these forums, I'd be surprised if you hadn't gotten into a fist fight over it at least once. I've seen teenagers get into that habit, but rarely grown men.

Oh but no, my friend. My complaints make a lot of sense. I very, very carefully explain in exact detail how and where you are being dishonest.

Lots of nonsense like your argument above at the top of the post. Maybe you don't get what people are saying. I don't always get what your point is either. Do I call you a liar? Leave some room for the fact that you might not get what the other person is saying before accusing of sin. Try to understand someone else's point of view before accusing someone of lying.

But...let's see...you have previously indicated (among at least a dozen other insulting description - "stupid" "fool" etc.)

I've called your allegations stupid nonense because they are. I've called some of them foolish because they are. I didn't call you a stupid fool. Don't act like one.

I am headed for the "hottest hell".

If I were to follow your MO, I'd call you aliar for that, or at least 'dishonest.' I'm not going to look it up, but as I recall I asked you which part of Hell was hotter, the part the slanderers went to the part someone who made some kind of symbol you consider occultic went to. I don't remember if it was holding one's arms out not like a perfect T, standing on a chair, or having a picture of a bridge that looked like an eye behind them. You can look it up if you won't. I don't remember ever telling an individually at least in my adult life, that they were going to Hell. (I might have made a blanket statment about people who don't believe in Jesus.) If I said that, quote it, and I'll apologize. I don't go around judging people and condeming them to Hell. Try to think through what the point of a statement is before jumping to conclusions. I notice you often interpret statements, unreasonably IMO, in the most negative way, or just in the wrong way.

..and that I am an "accuser of the brethren"...a satanic designation, a satanic description AND one of the actual names for Satan. So...

It is a name for Satan, something you have been doing. The point is, don't do that because that is a Satanic thing to do. I'm not saying that you are Satan. Again, you interpret things in the most negative light. Why don't you ask what I mean instead of assuming I'm saying you are going to the hottest Hell, etc., when I didn't actually say that. If I did, quote it, and I'll apologize, because I don't believe I should say things like that.

...if I deserve to have a billboard asking pure out-of-the-blue unprovoked, non sequitur questions of an unspeakable nature because I merely ASK if there might be occult allegiances going on...

No, I didn't say you deserved to have a billboard like that. Obviously, I don't think that's right. That's my point. Engaging in witchcraft, idolatry, and all the forbidden occultic activities is also heinous. Society may not see it that way, but these are awful sins before God. If a woman has a bridge in a picture behind her, and the bridge happens to look like an eye, which happens to look like an occultic symbol, suggesting she may be in the occult is rather uncalled for, wouldn't you think? Other than the social stigma, is it that much worse that questioning publically that someone has engaged in such a harmful abusive act on children? What is the ultimate penalty for either sin, if not forgiven? In the Old Testament, engaging in certain of these occultic activities was a death penalty crime, but child molestation was only a death penalty crime in certain cases, as far as I can tell.

Regarding my pointing out that you called the woman in the wheelchair an anti-Jesus miracle, you wrote (bold emphasis mine), and I quote where you said it.

Nope. That's a lie. You're a liar. For someone who is quite unhappy to have complaints of untruthfulness laid at his feet.,..you sure are digging a deep hole.

This is an example what I am referring to, post 154. According to the site, you wrote this:

And your "lady lurching/staggering out of a wheelchair" YouTube which you provided...is further resounding proof:


If a veritable 'champion' of Pentecostal doctrines such as yourself is given access to the entire YouTube library and hundreds of millions of iPhones and video cams and the entire Internet with its billions of eyeballs spanning the globe...and yet the absolute best you can come up with is...this ANTI-"Jesus-style" miracle...isn't that the final nail in the coffin for Pentecostal doctrines?

Are you going to tell me someone hacked your account to post that? If not, by your own standards--which don't seem to allow for misunderstandings or lack of recall or whatever, to accuse of dishonestly, shouldn't you admit that you, MattTooFor, are a liar? I'm not calling you that, but if you were consistent, I can't see how that you could help but consider yourself one.

I wish you'd take a lesson from this, not to be so quick to call other people liars. People see things differently, remember differently, and may mean something you just don't catch when you are reading. They can also forget what they said or did. You wouldn't have liked it if my response was 'You liar' even though you are clearly wrong here.

 

[miknik5]

I'm sorry
MattTooFar and presidente

you're not going to like this

numbers 23:22

 

[MattTooFor]

Are you going to tell me someone hacked your account to post that?

No, I'm merely going to call you a liar. Your dishonesty is absolutely amazing: First you credit me with having an "anti-Jesus" stance. Then your very own cut-and-paste of my actual comment reveals I only said this non-miracle you presented to me was an "anti-"Jesus-STYLE" miracle. I never said "anti-Jesus". I never used the term. I don't believe in being "anti-Jesus". I have no "anti-Jesus" position of any kind. You misquote deliberately then have the bizarre gall to openly display your misrepresentation and dishonesty? You are one strange, dysfunctional guy. You take the cake.

I also later clarified and ratcheted back the lingo...to NON-"Jesus-style" miracle...a more accurate term for what I was trying to convey. But you just loved, loved, loved the "anti-Jesus" thing you had concocted. So you fibbed and fibbed and fibbed.

 

[MattTooFor]

I'm sorry
MattTooFar and presidente

you're not going to like this

numbers 23:22

Uh...I looked it up...but I don't get it. I assume you're not to thrilled about the intense exchange? For me, everything is at stake. The Antichrist's "Abomination of Desolation" is roaring down the tracks at 1000 mph...and virtually the entirety of mainstream Christendom is slumbering, sleeping, snoozing and/or hypnotized by various false doctrines and false notions...Dominionism, PreTribulationism, the entire "snipe-hunting/"professional wrestling" world of Charismatic/Pentecostal sensationalism...rampant materialism...worldliness and lax morality.

Believers are being ripened for the slaughter. All these false doctrines are setting them up.

 

[miknik5]

Uh...I looked it up...but I don't get it. I assume you're not to thrilled about the intense exchange? For me, everything is at stake. The Antichrist's "Abomination of Desolation" is roaring down the tracks at 1000 mph...and virtually the entirety of mainstream Christendom is slumbering, sleeping, snoozing and/or hypnotized by various false doctrines and false notions...Dominionism, PreTribulationism, the entire "snipe-hunting/"professional wrestling" world of Charismatic/Pentecostal sensationalism...rampant materialism...worldliness and lax morality.

Believers are being ripened for the slaughter. All these false doctrines are setting them up.

Mythical unicorn analogy

 

[MattTooFor]

Mythical unicorn analogy

Oh, I see. No, I have no problem with that reference. My analogy had nothing to do with whether the Bible refers to something. My point merely was...there are no Unicorns in the world today...and addressing the question as to how we can reasonably confirm such...without having to scour every last inch of Planet Earth...which is what this guy is saying we must do with regard to any claim of a miracle.

It's nonsense, of course - I don't have to look through all 800 million YouTubes and have attended all 70 jillion church services over the span of almost 2000 years...in order to come to a reasonably certain conclusion there are no more ongoing Jesus-style miracles...the ultra-electrifying, on-the-spot, instantaneous "ZAP" miracles which cured people from life-long 'crippledness' and life-long 'stone blindness'.

All the top most successful and popular Pentecostal and Charismatic churches have nationally televised church services, week after week. And not a single solitary miracle which fits the description a Bible-style, Jesus-style, disciples-style miracle. It's pretty obvious what the reality is.

 

[miknik5]

Oh, I see. No, I have no problem with that reference. My analogy had nothing to do with whether the Bible refers to something. My point merely was...there are no Unicorns in the world today...and addressing the question as to how we can reasonably confirm such...without having to scour every last inch of Planet Earth...which is what this guy is saying we must do with regard to any claim of a miracle.

It's nonsense, of course - I don't have to look through all 800 million YouTubes and have attended all 70 jillion church services over the span of almost 2000 years...in order to come to a reasonably certain conclusion there are no more ongoing Jesus-style miracles...the ultra-electrifying, on-the-spot, instantaneous "ZAP" miracles which cured people from life-long 'crippledness' and life-long 'stone blindness'.

All the top most successful and popular Pentecostal and Charismatic churches have nationally televised church services, week after week. And not a single solitary miracle which fits the description a Bible-style, Jesus-style, disciples-style miracle. It's pretty obvious what the reality is.

miracles do happen

 

[MattTooFor]

I wish you'd take a lesson from this, not to be so quick to call other people liars.

Nor am I attributing you with being "anti-Jesus"...just to cover all the bases. Nor the woman in the wheelchair. I wouldn't attribute anyone in this discussion with being "anti-Jesus". I wouldn't attribute you in a million years with any of these satanic designations you dished out...in your 'shoot from the hip' sloppiness.

Yes, I wish you would "take a lesson"from this. Wouldn't it be nice and wouldn't it be productive...if you were to calm down and allow at least a conversation about these concerns many folks have about Michael Smith (and a large number of other Christian luminaries). You've got this thing rigged up to where no one can even discuss these concerns. These things are all out in the public forum. Smith has published his materials. He has brazenly run a de facto 'satanic' operation at Rocketown for a couple decades now. He has been approached at least three times to my direct knowledge...and asked about these things...only to give people the brush off. Open discussions should ensue.

For the record - below are the four times I explicitly complained about your concocted "anti-Jesus" lingo: You see complaints in...

Post #208

Post #228

Post #232 and finally, my most recent post -

Post #235

Four times, bro. Four times I asked you to cease with the misdescriptions.