Has the pre trib rapture belief alienated a whole group of people against each other
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Nah!!! "rapture timing" / "existence" / details are one of "Just Another" collection of relatively unimportant issues that professional (and not so professional) "Theologians" use in their process of dividing the Visible church asunder for their own purposes with their "Systematics", "Dogmas", and Pontifications.
I'm a "Knee jerk Pre" - HEY!! when I first got saved under the Southern Baptist outreach, they were the ones that initially propagandized me, and over the last 60 years, I've SHED a lot of their baggage along the way, but "Rapture" has never been important enough to re-think, and since the Assemblies of God bunch (where I've been for most of the last 58 years) is also "Pre" (when they even deal with it at all). Personally, I'll just wait for the "Last Trump" (if I live that long), and then get OUTTA HERE!!!!
I'm a "Knee jerk Pre" - HEY!! when I first got saved under the Southern Baptist outreach, they were the ones that initially propagandized me, and over the last 60 years, I've SHED a lot of their baggage along the way, but "Rapture" has never been important enough to re-think, and since the Assemblies of God bunch (where I've been for most of the last 58 years) is also "Pre" (when they even deal with it at all). Personally, I'll just wait for the "Last Trump" (if I live that long), and then get OUTTA HERE!!!!
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But it does.
You can quibble over words with Jesus. He described it as something that is the most extreme of it's kind.
eg; "The great mountain - Everest"
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
NKJV
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
NIV
The greek word used is;
θλῖψις (thlipsis)
Strong: G2347
GK: G2568
pr. pressure, compression; met. affliction, distress of mind, distressing circumstances, trial, affliction,
megas thlipsis - Great tribulation. The biggest. The Great Tribulation. Aptly titled.
You can quibble over words with Jesus. He described it as something that is the most extreme of it's kind.
eg; "The great mountain - Everest"
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
NKJV
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
NIV
The greek word used is;
θλῖψις (thlipsis)
Strong: G2347
GK: G2568
pr. pressure, compression; met. affliction, distress of mind, distressing circumstances, trial, affliction,
megas thlipsis - Great tribulation. The biggest. The Great Tribulation. Aptly titled.
Lucy-Pevensie
I was very direct in my question. Jesus does not use the the term " The great tribulation". Man has stuck the word 'the' in to what Jesus said.
I was very direct in my question. Jesus does not use the the term " The great tribulation". Man has stuck the word 'the' in to what Jesus said.
Probably a lot like the other 2,000 "interpretations" that I've been exposed to in non-Catholic denominations over the last 60 years. I'll not bother with it.
Personally, MY OPINION is that there WILL BE a "Mature visible Church" (as described in Ephesians 4:11-16) and that Church will SERIOUSLY in the Spirit pray "EVEN SO COME Lord Jesus" and the end will come.
Since I'm going on 81, and in lousy health, I assume that I'll get to watch the party from the other side of the grass. And after all, "Eschatology" is nothing more than a religious word for "Rank Speculation".
Personally, MY OPINION is that there WILL BE a "Mature visible Church" (as described in Ephesians 4:11-16) and that Church will SERIOUSLY in the Spirit pray "EVEN SO COME Lord Jesus" and the end will come.
Since I'm going on 81, and in lousy health, I assume that I'll get to watch the party from the other side of the grass. And after all, "Eschatology" is nothing more than a religious word for "Rank Speculation".
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nice scripture to post about building each other up in love and prayer which is also sharing.
How about building each other up in truth does that count for anything which is also sharing.
I posted you the video to show you the truth.
Your scripture you posted is about sharing and I posted you a reply to share.
A wise man looks to understand something new, and your post shows you've never watched the video but yet you've not even tried to understand it ?.
Like many other replies I've had no doubt this one will take the same path.
May the grace of our lord be with you.
The reality is that many false prophets will arise preaching pre trib rapture
How about building each other up in truth does that count for anything which is also sharing.
I posted you the video to show you the truth.
Your scripture you posted is about sharing and I posted you a reply to share.
A wise man looks to understand something new, and your post shows you've never watched the video but yet you've not even tried to understand it ?.
Like many other replies I've had no doubt this one will take the same path.
May the grace of our lord be with you.
The reality is that many false prophets will arise preaching pre trib rapture
18 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
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Correction: You posted a video which, IN YOUR OPINION, represents the truth.
Over the last 60 YEARS, I've seen many videos and have several books that make the same claim. I even made a A/V presentation (before there were "Videos" - complete with planes crashing) about one of my pastor's version of the TRUTH.
Over the last 60 YEARS, I've seen many videos and have several books that make the same claim. I even made a A/V presentation (before there were "Videos" - complete with planes crashing) about one of my pastor's version of the TRUTH.
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You are not looking at what the verses are saying correctly. In both situations, it is a short time. In Revelation 20:3, it is the total time. In Revelation 6:11, it is the remaining time.
The "souls under the altar" are not being told to "rest yet for a little season" back in the Dark Ages time frame; rather, they are being told that at a time that is much closer to the time when the others will be killed - long after the Dark Ages.
Also, the phrase does not indicate a specific amount of time. Therefore, you cannot really make a direct comparison between the time each might/would take. It is somewhat 'relative' - like the phrase "a little while"...
The "souls under the altar" are not being told to "rest yet for a little season" back in the Dark Ages time frame; rather, they are being told that at a time that is much closer to the time when the others will be killed - long after the Dark Ages.
Also, the phrase does not indicate a specific amount of time. Therefore, you cannot really make a direct comparison between the time each might/would take. It is somewhat 'relative' - like the phrase "a little while"...
Yes, I see a connection between them.
Why do you think that Daniel 7:21 is referring to a short period of time?
Don't forget about 'a time and times and the dividing of time' in Daniel 7:25.
Sometimes the Bible describes a "larger entity" (i.e. - beast, kingdom, nation, etc.) with individualistic characterizations.
You have to look at it on God's time scale - it is a really long period of time...
Why do you think that Daniel 7:21 is referring to a short period of time?
Don't forget about 'a time and times and the dividing of time' in Daniel 7:25.
Sometimes the Bible describes a "larger entity" (i.e. - beast, kingdom, nation, etc.) with individualistic characterizations.
You have to look at it on God's time scale - it is a really long period of time...
Fine... but aren't you suggesting that it is being said to them at the time of the 5th Seal time-slot (per Rev6:9-11), which seal (in your similar-to-historicist viewpoint) occurred quite a long-ish time ago??
If I'm right that you believe it was being "said to them" at the time of the 5th Seal time-slot (and that this wasn't a very recent event, from our perspective in time [today]), when are you saying the 5th Seal was opened? How long ago? (and then, will Satan's "mikron chronon G3398 G5550" [after the MK age] last roughly a similar length of time as that, in your viewpoint?? Or by your saying, "It's somewhat relative," you mean, we can consider them to be vastly differing b/c of the varied circumstances between the two?)
I meant relatively similar, rather than exactly-precise / direct-comparison.
Why wouldn't we come to the conclusion that Satan will be "loosed out from his prison" (after the 1000 yrs) for a length of time which would be similar to the length of time they had yet to rest (from whenever they were supposedly told this long ago at the 5th Seal events, from your perspective) instead of vastly differing from it (since the same words are used, for these, within the same book [/author]... It seems it would be a reasonable conclusion to come to, if you're going to say it of the one... [why not the other also?])
Again, my viewpoint both accounts for this wording, consistently, while also being consistent with what verse 1 (Rev1:1) tells us, that John is going to be "SHOW[n]" (verse 1; and in 4:1 starting there) "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" including ALL of the Seals (which are EQUIVALENT to "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of--Matt24:4-8; Mk13:5-8 and Lk21:8-11... and which Paul had said the INITIAL ONE of those ["birth PANG [SINGULAR]"] IS the ARRIVAL OF "the Day of the Lord" time-period [which time-period includes Judgments unfolding upon the earth, aka the 7-yr Trib, and also goes on to include the entire MK age--the Blessings aspect OF it]); IOW, the ARRIVAL OF the DOTL time-period coincides with: SEAL #1 / rider on white horse with a bow [i.e. deception] / the "whose coming" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" / the "he-he-he" who does the "FOR ONE WEEK [7-yrs]" thing...
... which latter point brings me to the Subject of JUST WHY the [timing] wording in Dan9:24 (etc) is stated as it is (your viewpoint I believe simply glosses over) the BIG PICTURE of just WHY it is stated as "70 Weeks [/sevens]" [and the mention of the "62 Weeks [/sevens]" and the "One Week [/seven]"], when it could have just as easily just been written, simply as: "490 Years are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city... After 483 years [such and such]... and in the 7 years [such and such]..." but it doesn't.
It uses this "shabua - [set/s of] sevens" for a very specific and important REASON which I see your viewpoint as missing altogether.
Why do you believe it uses the wording of "[70] shabua / sevens" rather than just plainly saying (as it could have), "490 YEARS are determined upon..." ?
(my viewpoint also contains the reasoning for this, which I am not ascertaining from your viewpoint--your viewpoint basically says that it simply means "490 [regular-ol'] Years"... someone just wanted to get fancy with their writing skilzzz--Well, then WHY doesn't it just SAY that, instead of the way it is spelled out here in this text, according to your view I wonder?)
If I'm right that you believe it was being "said to them" at the time of the 5th Seal time-slot (and that this wasn't a very recent event, from our perspective in time [today]), when are you saying the 5th Seal was opened? How long ago? (and then, will Satan's "mikron chronon G3398 G5550" [after the MK age] last roughly a similar length of time as that, in your viewpoint?? Or by your saying, "It's somewhat relative," you mean, we can consider them to be vastly differing b/c of the varied circumstances between the two?)
I meant relatively similar, rather than exactly-precise / direct-comparison.
Why wouldn't we come to the conclusion that Satan will be "loosed out from his prison" (after the 1000 yrs) for a length of time which would be similar to the length of time they had yet to rest (from whenever they were supposedly told this long ago at the 5th Seal events, from your perspective) instead of vastly differing from it (since the same words are used, for these, within the same book [/author]... It seems it would be a reasonable conclusion to come to, if you're going to say it of the one... [why not the other also?])
Again, my viewpoint both accounts for this wording, consistently, while also being consistent with what verse 1 (Rev1:1) tells us, that John is going to be "SHOW[n]" (verse 1; and in 4:1 starting there) "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" including ALL of the Seals (which are EQUIVALENT to "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of--Matt24:4-8; Mk13:5-8 and Lk21:8-11... and which Paul had said the INITIAL ONE of those ["birth PANG [SINGULAR]"] IS the ARRIVAL OF "the Day of the Lord" time-period [which time-period includes Judgments unfolding upon the earth, aka the 7-yr Trib, and also goes on to include the entire MK age--the Blessings aspect OF it]); IOW, the ARRIVAL OF the DOTL time-period coincides with: SEAL #1 / rider on white horse with a bow [i.e. deception] / the "whose coming" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" / the "he-he-he" who does the "FOR ONE WEEK [7-yrs]" thing...
... which latter point brings me to the Subject of JUST WHY the [timing] wording in Dan9:24 (etc) is stated as it is (your viewpoint I believe simply glosses over) the BIG PICTURE of just WHY it is stated as "70 Weeks [/sevens]" [and the mention of the "62 Weeks [/sevens]" and the "One Week [/seven]"], when it could have just as easily just been written, simply as: "490 Years are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city... After 483 years [such and such]... and in the 7 years [such and such]..." but it doesn't.
It uses this "shabua - [set/s of] sevens" for a very specific and important REASON which I see your viewpoint as missing altogether.
Why do you believe it uses the wording of "[70] shabua / sevens" rather than just plainly saying (as it could have), "490 YEARS are determined upon..." ?
(my viewpoint also contains the reasoning for this, which I am not ascertaining from your viewpoint--your viewpoint basically says that it simply means "490 [regular-ol'] Years"... someone just wanted to get fancy with their writing skilzzz--Well, then WHY doesn't it just SAY that, instead of the way it is spelled out here in this text, according to your view I wonder?)
Don't forget about 'a time and times and the dividing of time' in Daniel 7:25.
[no, I believe "time, times, half a time" speaks of a very precise set of "1260 days" (not merely any "random" set of 1260 days)]
____________
On another note (that you'd touched on)... re: the word "days," I do not believe that Hosea5:14-6:3's wording of "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" is speaking of "24-hr-days" kind of days.
You do?[not always 'days']
In Scripture, the word for "sevens" here can pertain either to "7 DAYS" or "7 YEARS" or whatever set of seven... That is inherent in its definition (context determines 7 "whatevers" [what 'set of seven' it is referring to specifically])
In Scripture, "months" has no other meaning (it pertains to 'moon').
"Day" into "year" occurs in very specific incidents, in Scripture... like where Ezekiel is told that a day will represent a year (in that prophecy).
Or, similar to how the "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" refer (not to "24-hr days") rather to "thousand year/s"... as context determines this to indeed be the case. (Where did all this IN THIS CONTEXT actually happen in "2 [24-hr] days" and in the "3rd [24-hr] day"?? It didn't and hasn't.)
Seems to me your historicist viewpoint applies these willy-nilly (oh, since Ezekiel was told that his specific prophecy would carry out in this way [a 'day' for a 'year'], so will all the other passages of scripture using "time-related wording"... so, let's put "years" for "months" too!!)
As I see it, some think this is what is happening with the wording of Dan9:24 ("Weeks") rather than grasping that this word inherently carries that meaning (7 days OR 7 years OR 7 whatevers... 'A SET OF SEVEN _____'--That's IT!)
In Scripture, the word for "sevens" here can pertain either to "7 DAYS" or "7 YEARS" or whatever set of seven... That is inherent in its definition (context determines 7 "whatevers" [what 'set of seven' it is referring to specifically])
In Scripture, "months" has no other meaning (it pertains to 'moon').
"Day" into "year" occurs in very specific incidents, in Scripture... like where Ezekiel is told that a day will represent a year (in that prophecy).
Or, similar to how the "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" refer (not to "24-hr days") rather to "thousand year/s"... as context determines this to indeed be the case. (Where did all this IN THIS CONTEXT actually happen in "2 [24-hr] days" and in the "3rd [24-hr] day"?? It didn't and hasn't.)
Seems to me your historicist viewpoint applies these willy-nilly (oh, since Ezekiel was told that his specific prophecy would carry out in this way [a 'day' for a 'year'], so will all the other passages of scripture using "time-related wording"... so, let's put "years" for "months" too!!)
As I see it, some think this is what is happening with the wording of Dan9:24 ("Weeks") rather than grasping that this word inherently carries that meaning (7 days OR 7 years OR 7 whatevers... 'A SET OF SEVEN _____'--That's IT!)
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