Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[Jabberjaw]

That's the only reasonable reading of that passage...and I wonder if these folks believe that when the cannon was put together in Nicea or wherever ..if they all went in with the gifts of the Holy Spirit...and all came out not having these gifts anymore?

It is quite simple, Paul in verse 9 says "we know in part and we prophesy in part", then in verse 10 he contrast it with "that which is perfect has come" or the way "τελειον" (teleios) should have been rendered "complete" not "perfect"

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NKJV) [SUP]9 [/SUP] For we know in part and we prophesy in part. [SUP]10 [/SUP] But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Now you can put Jesus in place of complete but you would be saying Jesus in not complete, or "when that Jesus has come", the problem is, Jesus already came? The scripture does not say "But when that which is perfect has come again"...

The only way you can read it is "we know in part and we prophesy in part, But when the complete prophesy is come" meaning the entire word of God is come (and it has) then that which is in part will be done away. (prophesy and signs, all but faith, hope, and love will go away)

Another version puts it this way:

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NRSV)
9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end.

 

[1still_waters]

Debating if these have ceased is fruitless from my experience.
Best thing to do is test everything.

Compare what is happening now with what is in the Bible.
If one thing IS like the other, and doesn't conflict with scripture, then it is what it is.

But if one thing is NOT like the other, and does conflict with scripture..Well then...it is what it ain't.

Cookie Monster explains...

[video=youtube;TxfZbj5vf7Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxfZbj5vf7Y[/video]

 

[Mitspa]

It is quite simple, Paul in verse 9 says "we know in part and we prophesy in part", then in verse 10 he contrast it with "that which is perfect has come" or the way "τελειον" (teleios) should have been rendered "complete" not "perfect"

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NKJV) [SUP]9 [/SUP] For we know in part and we prophesy in part. [SUP]10 [/SUP] But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Now you can put Jesus in place of complete but you would be saying Jesus in not complete, or "when that Jesus has come", the problem is, Jesus already came? The scripture does not say "But when that which is perfect has come again"...

The only way you can read it is "we know in part and we prophesy in part, But when the complete prophesy is come" meaning the entire word of God is come (and it has) then that which is in part will be done away. (prophesy and signs, all but faith, hope, and love will go away)

Another version puts it this way:

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NRSV)
9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end.

Well I have studied the Greek for many years now and the translation is a good one...but it don't matter in the whole context of the passage...its clear that what is perfect will be seen face to face.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Clearly Paul is telling us that tongues and these other things are not the goal ...Christ is the goal and faith hope and Love are all that will matter when we see Him face to face. Then we will know ourselves ...;its silly to relate this to the cannon..

 

[popeye]

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Where there are prophesies they will cease, where there are tongues they will be stilled, where there is knowledge it will pass away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when completion comes the imperfect disappears.

When something is incomplete it is not perfect. The bible was incomplete, so there were prophets to help guide God's people until they had the full bible. It is now complete, we have Genesis through Revelation, and now that we have perfection, the old ways disappear.

1 Corinthians 13:13 says faith, hope, and love remain. If something remains that means that something else was taken away. So what was taken away? Miracles. Miracles had a purpose and now that purpose Has been fulfilled. Miracles were to identify the prophets, Christ, and the apostles.

We still have prayer, and the bible says the prayer of a righteous man does much good, and it does, I've seen it. But I know I will not see someone walking on water, instantly healing the deaf, blind, lame, and lepers, or parting water.

Under your template ,knowledge has ceased. Hmmmmm

 

[popeye]

The Bible say many things about the Holy Spirit. And there is mention in the bible to the gifts of the Holy Spirit that will be evident in the last days. I believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still for the believers in present day. I believe that Jesus did not leave us without His power to overcome the powers of the enemy. I have went to third word countries and it is more evident there for they do not have a secular world view. I have met many believers that had true power through the Holy Spirit and I have witnessed miracles myself. Here is a YouTube video of a young believer and her experience with the Holy Spirit, I believe this video and it shows how she is very sincere in her doubts she had at first before her experience with the baptism of the Holy Spirit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjpKiFK_Q3w&feature=player_detailpage The bible instructs us to be baptized in the Holy Spirit which is a completely separate experience form being baptized in water. But we have been called to orderly worship too, so with the gifts we are call to be responsible to use the gifts we have been given in a proper manner. I have plenty of scripture references to this as well..

Good post.
I would add that when John TB had his lapse of faith JESUS said "Go tell John the dead are raise,lepers are cleansed,blind eyes are opened and the lame walk"
IOW what was the proof of his ministry/authenticity???? MIRACLES!!!!

 

[popeye]

No they need to see Christians weep with joy because they have been set free from Sin and sins power by grace and have been given the Holy Spirit of God...(The same Holy Spirit)

Wow!
I felt the wind of heaven off that one!!!
God rocks!!!

 

[popeye]

That's the only reasonable reading of that passage...and I wonder if these folks believe that when the cannon was put together in Nicea or wherever ..if they all went in with the gifts of the Holy Spirit...and all came out not having these gifts anymore?

OMG,that is so funny!!!! I almost busted a gut.
I was wondering the same thing.

 

[popeye]

I was kicked off a forum because I told my testimony of my (BIBLICALLY SOUND) exprience , the day i recieved the baptism of the HS.

The final straw ,lol, thank you Jesus,was when I told them "I hadn't realised i stumbled onto a baptist forum"
It was like a thousand demons were unleashed. LOL

 

[Stephen63]

Well I have studied the Greek for many years now and the translation is a good one...but it don't matter in the whole context of the passage...its clear that what is perfect will be seen face to face.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Clearly Paul is telling us that tongues and these other things are not the goal ...Christ is the goal and faith hope and Love are all that will matter when we see Him face to face. Then we will know ourselves ...;its silly to relate this to the cannon..

WHEN will we see him face to face? According to some, when the canon was finished, they all saw Jesus face to face, & knew everything about everybody. Even now, we're supposed to know everyone & be known by everyone. After all, the context says so.

 

[Bigbruce]

I do not like wording. " New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased "
The gifts of the holy ghost. Yeah I feel more comfortable now. Or the baptisem of the holy spirit.
A bapist told me that the gift of the holy spirit where for the first church and now we don't need them becua---------se we have the bible.
As I am now I was then I wanted him to show me. He showed me this verse Icor:13:10 . He tried to tell me the word on that verse "that" ment the bible. Rofl. At 16 I had a strongs concodance and new bible and that were not even close to the same meaning.
When that which is perfect is come ......... Then that which in part shall be done away with...
He claimed that was the creation of the bible. He couldn't tell me which bible tindalls king james or what. He was the son of the biggest baptise church in miami.
I showed him and youth group
Joel 2:28-

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

He told me had a demon because I spoke in tounges. So I let 50 baptise youth lay hands on me and cast that demon out. Nothing happened. I left his group still speaking in tounge prophecy word of knowledge. All the gift to this day.
When the moon turns to blood then it time for the REAL THAT WHICH is PREFECT IS COME.
I bless God for gift of dicernment because there are alot of faults tongues out there.

 

[Marcelo]

I have seen so many fake gifts of tongues that now I have doubts if they still exist or not. This is how I handle the problem: I assume they still exist and expect to receive them through prayer. What I don't do is to put in any effort to speak in tongues. If one day I receive the gift I will know it came from God.

 

[trofimus]

Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

Yes

......

 

[trofimus]

I have seen so many fake gifts of tongues that now I have doubts if they still exist or not. This is how I handle the problem: I assume they still exist and expect to receive them through prayer. What I don't do is to put in any effort to speak in tongues. If one day I receive the gift I will know it came from God.

I have seen only fake tongues gifts, nothing like in the book of Acts, so I am still waiting to be convinced this gift have not ceased.

 

[1ofthem]

I have seen only fake tongues gifts, nothing like in the book of Acts, so I am still waiting to be convinced this gift have not ceased.

I have seen the fake as well as the real thing. Believe me you will know the real thing when you see it. There is power in God and the Holy Ghost.

Jesus said in John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

[valiant]

I have seen the fake as well as the real thing. Believe me you will know the real thing when you see it. There is power in God and the Holy Ghost.

Jesus said in John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

but in context he was speaking to the Apostles see also Heb2.4 acts 2.43

 

[1ofthem]

but in context he was speaking to the Apostles

Yes, but wasn't the Apostles followers of Jesus? Aren't we all to be followers of Jesus as well.

God does not change he is the same God yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Would he give gifts to men and explain them in the Bible just to take them back or stop them? I don't think so. I think that we do not see the gifts working as much because there are not many people who are hungering and thirsting after righteousness. When they were casting the devil out of the person in the scripture they said these things cometh by much prayer and fasting. I'm not judging anyone else, but I will say that I myself am falling short in that area.

 

[valiant]

Good post.
I would add that when John TB had his lapse of faith JESUS said "Go tell John the dead are raise,lepers are cleansed,blind eyes are opened and the lame walk"
IOW what was the proof of his ministry/authenticity???? MIRACLES!!!!

and why did it prove His authenticity? Because no one else could do them. Later He passed on the gift to the APOSTLES

 

[valiant]

Yes, but wasn't the Apostles followers of Jesus? Aren't we all to be followers of Jesus as well.

But we are not Apostles. I have never met anyone or heard of anyone who could remotely do what they did,

God does not change he is the same God yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Would he give gifts to men and explain them in the Bible just to take them back or stop them? I don't think so

He did it after Moses. He did it after Elijah and Elisha. So He has not changed.,

. I think that we do not see the gifts working as much because there are not many people who are hungering and thirsting after righteousness. When they were casting the devil out of the person in the scripture they said these things cometh by much prayer and fasting. I'm not judging anyone else, but I will say that I myself am falling short in that area.

there have been many who have been hungering and thirsting after righteousness, but God did not give them power to heal all who came to them. Many have wrought the occasional miracle. But NONE have been like the apostles.

the trail of failures is significant

 

[1ofthem]

but in context he was speaking to the Apostles see also Heb2.4 acts 2.43

The Apostles were just men saved by grace and chosen by Jesus. Aren't we all saved by grace and chosen by Jesus? God is no respecter of person.

 

[1ofthem]

But we are not Apostles. I have never met anyone or heard of anyone who could remotely do what they did,



He did it after Moses. He did it after Elijah and Elisha. So He has not changed.,



there have been many who have been hungering and thirsting after righteousness, but God did not give them power to heal all who came to them. Many have wrought the occasional miracle. But NONE have been like the apostles.

Not everyone has the same spiritual gift. Not everyone will have the gift of healing. What if the person who has the gift of healing is choosing to believe that the gifts stopped with the Apostles. We have to have faith in order for the gifts to work. Didn't Jesus say that if we have faith as a grain of a mustard seed we could move mountains?

As far as the Apostles go, In my opinion we are falling way short of them for some reason. Maybe we aren't as willing as they were to follow the Lord and his teachings. and May be we simply just don't have the faith that they did. I don't know the reason, but I do agree we are falling short of them.