Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

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Sorry charismatics, you failed the test.

You can post as many Scriptures as you wish, you are all afraid to be tested in your claims.

So run to gift of tongues, there you can make some sounds and boast how spiritual you are... Until you can be tested in something more real, there is nothing to talk about and your interpretation of Scripture is not working.

you have no understanding of scripture if you think anyone is running to tongues

thing is, you have not been honest here....you have bullied Ricky and not even addressed what the actual gifts are

Ricky has been kind in his responses to you and sincere...you might learn something from him
 
Aw shucks ember, you make me blush :)

Doesn't scripture say not to test God?

People don't believe God's word, and then they want to test it.

That's two strikes against them right there!
 
Dunno, maybe? Haven't had a Charismatic give me a gift in a long time. Hmm, but, then again, haven't had a Baptist give me a gift in a long time.
 
*
Matthew 8:
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6“Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” 7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” 8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
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Matthew 8
23 Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. 24 Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25 The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!” 26 He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. 27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”
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Matthew 9
1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
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Matthew 9
20 Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. 21 She said to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed.” 22 Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed at that moment.
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Matthew 9
27 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, calling out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!” 28 When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” “Yes, Lord,” they replied. 29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”; 30 and their sight was restored.
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Matthew 13
53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and arena’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.” 58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
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Matthew 14
25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear. 27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.” 28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.” 29 “Come,” he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”
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Matthew 15
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” 25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” 27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
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Matthew 17
14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.” 17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?” 20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
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Matthew 21
18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. 20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked. 21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
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Matthew 13:58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
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And that's just Matthew. You could double that with Hebrews 11, and double it again out of all the other books.

So clearly, receiving/working divine gifts is based upon believing- nothing but, and not the other way around.
So if we go by your assertions about the listed scriptures then we should conclude that God never heals the unbeliever?

You seem to be saying that God is able to heal those with faith but not those without faith?

God does make the rain to fall and the sun to shine on the good as well as the evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
I call it testable. We must test everything, even your claims.

Do you have enough faith to throw away mountain or is it just a verse for you to beat up the anti-charismatics without any practical use?


naw...you are tempting and bullying...you have no understanding of the gifts...you mock tongues and are nasty the way you respond

you are approaching what God offers with a spirit of disbelief and mocking those who do believe

very hard to discuss anything when you do not actually respond to posts but continue to accuse...as if there was any need of that type of behavior

you know very well no one is going to cast a mountain anywhere....what do you do that provides 'proof' of your spiritual walk? shall we discuss that?

God looks on the heart...He does not tempt people and He is not a bully...you might try to exhibit that as some fruit if you don't want any gifts
 
Aw shucks ember, you make me blush :)

Doesn't scripture say not to test God?

People don't believe God's word, and then they want to test it.

That's two strikes against them right there!


LOL!...I stick up for folks...that's what I do

disagreements will always be...but no need to get nasty and bully folks

and that is so...it is a case of disbelief and bad teaching
 
Really Roger?

you know Ricky might be new to your methodology and refusal to believe, but I am not

people have provided reams of proof to you and you mock and just tell them they are wrong

I don't think anyone should waste one more moment of their precious time responding to your request for proof when you have thrown back at anyone who has been considerate enough to believe you are sincere

I know, because I have been one of those people
He goes back a long way and he is still as loose with his interpretation and application of scriptures as ever. It is the only way even a pretense can be made for tongues and such in the modern church.

Any sense of mocking is not from me but light revealing how far from the truth Pentecostalism has gotten.

You cannot argue against scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
If someone came up to me and tried to tell me speaking in tongues is not for today. I would be shocked! I have spoken in tongues off and on for decades and do so more then ever in the last number of years every day and night. Sometimes I am working along and I find I am singing in tongues without even realizing it. It's just the joy of the Lord bubbling up.

Someone saying tongues is not for today is like a atheist coming to me and saying "Jesus isn't real. He's not for today. He died 2,000 years ago."..and I have scripture to prove it too..

( well they have to take the resurrection part out of the bible or better yet explain it away with man's reasoning )
 
The gifts in 1 Corinthians chapter 13 is for today also,because the operation of the Church,is the operation of the Church,but charity,love in action,is the greatest thing we can possess,for all those gifts will cease when we are in heaven,even faith,and hope,for faith,and hope,are only needed on this earth,along with all the gifts,but love will go on forever.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

We know there is still prophesy today,still faith,and hope,and knowledge is still for today.

Charity,love in action,never fails,and out of all the things we do on earth,pertaining to helping us in our walk with God,they will all cease when we get to heaven,but Charity will go on forever,and will be the only thing that will go on forever,for in heaven,we do not need faith,and hope,we do not need to speak in tongues,we do not need prophesy,to not need to study the word of God,and have knowledge anymore,do not need to heal,but all we will do out of all we did on earth,is love for eternity,for that never passes away.

That is what I think it says.
 
It's not a sideshow act that occurs at anyone's whim. It is an act of God intended to bring forth the fruit of God. Believe me, if God finds cause to cast a mountain into the sea for His divine purpose, then it will happen. But only among those who believe it - and God - can.

That's the biggest problem with the pentasmatic groups, they do it as a sideshow. So they do it falsely. And in doing it falsely bring doubt into other people's minds. Which then makes the doubter deny it. Which is in direct conflict with God's word.

God's word says what it says. Unbelievable or not.



Ive heard amazing things from missionaries overseas. We have little faith in the US. We dont even believe God can heal,no wonder we dont see it happening. We believe in such a weak God here. I know tongues to be real. The Bible says it is but people refuse to see it. But I know its true.

I know a pastor who is friends with my parents. He came to the Lord that way,now he has a church of about 500 people. One Sunday he was walking by a church. He heard his mother tongue, he was from another country, and he stopped and listened wondering who there was from his country. The person told him how to get saved,in his own language. He went inside and waited till the service was over. He went to the pastor and asked who there was from his country. The pastor said no one in the congregation was from his country but that they had been speaking in tongues. That pastor became a Christian and pastors a church in Canada today. You can blaspheme the Holy Spirit if you wish, dangerous as it is, but there is no doubt in my mind that tongues is a real experience. No argument will change my mind. Not after that pastors testimony.
 
He goes back a long way and he is still as loose with his interpretation and application of scriptures as ever. It is the only way even a pretense can be made for tongues and such in the modern church.

Any sense of mocking is not from me but light revealing how far from the truth Pentecostalism has gotten.

You cannot argue against scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

yet you argue regularly

cheese whiz Roger

so you are discussing Pentecostalism? I don't know of one denom that could not use some intervention...which, is why I go by scripture

that's right...same Bible you use...
 
The gifts in 1 Corinthians chapter 13 is for today also,because the operation of the Church,is the operation of the Church,but charity,love in action,is the greatest thing we can possess,for all those gifts will cease when we are in heaven,even faith,and hope,for faith,and hope,are only needed on this earth,along with all the gifts,but love will go on forever.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

We know there is still prophesy today,still faith,and hope,and knowledge is still for today.

Charity,love in action,never fails,and out of all the things we do on earth,pertaining to helping us in our walk with God,they will all cease when we get to heaven,but Charity will go on forever,and will be the only thing that will go on forever,for in heaven,we do not need faith,and hope,we do not need to speak in tongues,we do not need prophesy,to not need to study the word of God,and have knowledge anymore,do not need to heal,but all we will do out of all we did on earth,is love for eternity,for that never passes away.

That is what I think it says.

you bring up an interesting point in yr first paragraph

why believe the instructions of the church are for today? and yet deny the operating power of that church?

you can't have it both ways

however we do have excess...but Paul deals with that...He says do NOT forbid speaking in tongues...do it the right way
 
But the verse is talking about a real physical mountain, right? So if it really literally applies to every christian, why not to do it?


So you think Jesus was lying, or being humorous? Its wrong to have faith? Do you know any missionaries? Find one and listen to their stories. Because I tell you this, the medicine men in these countries,they believe! And the witch doctors, they believe. What they can do under demonic power would scare you to death. If the devil has power does God not have much more?! I knew a missionary who said he knew of people in Africa so demonically possessed that they lived,lived under water!
And yet you mock belief in God. Nobody can move a mountain but God can. And it is He who you are mocking, His Words. I would choose my words more carefully. Lets see if you have the sense to do so.
 
you bring up an interesting point in yr first paragraph

why believe the instructions of the church are for today? and yet deny the operating power of that church?

you can't have it both ways

however we do have excess...but Paul deals with that...He says do NOT forbid speaking in tongues...do it the right way

Exactly. 1 Cor 14. Paul says we should do it, but he'd rather we not than do it wrong. That's why 1 Cor 14 is all about doing it right.
 
Don't need to argue with anyone about their interpretation of scripture regarding spiritual gifts when it contradicts what God is doing in the real world.
 
My personal belief is that I do not believe them to have ceased. I do however believe because many people have claimed gifts that they do not possess or people grossly misused their gifting in ways that are contrary to what scripture teaches people are wary. This makes it very easy for a the church as a whole to dismiss gifts with a more charismatic lean. God is never changing and the gifts that are instilled in us are given to us by the spirit they would not change either. I myself go to a nondenominational church and the majority of people do not have charismatic gifting. I do not believe that new gospels will ever be delivered being the Bible is complete and the inspired word of God. However, I do believe that Gods still uses us as a mouth piece when situation calls for it and that people still these gifts used to call to repentance and edify people of the Lord. I also believe that it is possible for God to speak in audible way, through dreams or visions, and that as long as it lines up 100% with scripture they are an important part of the body. Acts 2:17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
While I have never experienced tongues myself I do know a wonderful man of the Lord who is a missionary and told me that while he was over seas he began speaking the language of a tribe he was ministering to without ever having learned it first. As I am an extremely good judge of character and have never felt him to be dishonest I believe Him. As far as miracles and healing go I will never doubt because I was healed. Instantly healed and the doctors were left baffled and they even called it a miracle. I went from not walking and having lesions on my brain show up 3 MRIs to a completely clear MRI. A lady I barely knew that did called and said "Please do not think I am crazy. God told me to pray over you and he would be healed. "She had never done anything like this before and did not know what to think when she heard God tell her this. I thank God everyday for her obedience and faith that she was willing to step out of her comfort zone and step out in belief in the impossible. Just sharing what I believe to be true. God is capable of using any person at anytime as a vessel of His spirit to take things that seems and possible and make them possible. Everything is possible thru God. :)
 
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Why is this even a discussion ? Mark 16:17 says it all!

Mark 16:14 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Acts 2:37
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The reason people don't believe in the gift of the Spirit is because they simply don't believe the Word of God, they dont Obey it.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

People who say the know Jesus Christ and don't have the spirit DON'T KNOW HIM and are simply just religious people!

He gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who Obey him!

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The reason people don't believe in the gifts is because they have never received it ! And many people even reject it and don't even want it because of their personal religious beliefs. Amazing!

 
The only gifts that ceased are the sign gifts of 1 Cor 13:8. These gifts were a sign to unsaved Jews. God has not changed God is simply fulfilling His word.


There is a book I suggest you read about this topic. It is called the book of Acts. In the book of Acts, in chapter 15, we see that Paul and Barnabas told of the miracles God did among the Gentiles. You can also look at the previous chapters and see that the Lord used Paul to heal a Gentile lame man in front of a group of pagan, idol-worshiper Gentiles. Paul also healed a bunch of Gentiles on the island of Malta.

I Corinthians gives us an idea of how long the gifts will continue. In chapter 1 it says, 'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' The verse you mentioned needs to be interpreted consistently with the rest of the book and the rest of the Bible, not in a way that unnecessarily creates contradictions.