Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[God4me]

Dear God4me, thank you for respond. the verses you quotet for the baptism with the Holy Spirit as seperate expierience to the rebirth, are not shown in Acts 8, 14-17, and Acts 19,2,
Like Acts 2 and acts 10 these reports will show the authority of Gods word regarding that the Gospel for all mankind.
Acts 2, 2 ff shows the Jews, that Jesus was right and he sent the paraklet. in Acts 2, 14 ff Perter explains this
Acts 8, 14-17 shows that the gospel is for the samaritians, too
Acts 10,44 ff shows the Jews that the Gospel is also for the Nations
Acts 19, 2 ff shows the 12 disciples of John the baptist, that the Gospel is for thm, too.

This reports are obvious written down to reveal Gods plan with all people. For to create from this verses a doctrine of baptising with the Holy Spirit you have to put some own thoughts in. But that is not what the bible teaches.

The people in Acts 8: 14, were already saved, [Born again of the Spirit], They had received the word of God got saved and was baptised in water, Vs 14--16. Then they were baptised in the Holy Ghost in v17.
And Saul, [Paul] was saved, [Born again of the Spirit], Acts 9: 6. He surrendered his will to God, V6. He had a vision, v12.
Ananias called Him, "Brother Saul". Then he received the baptism in the Holy Ghost, v17.


The disciples in Acts 19: 2-6, were saved for who knows how long, but they didn't receive the baptism in the Holy Ghost until Paul laid his hands on them, V 6.
Please note, Paul called them believers, V2, And Paul should know, Plus, Paul knew there was a separate experience to the rebirth, otherwise why would he say, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed", If there was only one experience, Paul would have know they had received the Holy Ghost.

Some of the disciples were born again in Jn 20: 22, but they wasn't baptised in the Holy Ghost until Acts 2.
Two different experiences.

Jesus had already revealed His plan for all people.
Believers will speak in tongues, [Have the baptism in the Holy Ghost]. Mk 16: 17. Lk 24: 49.Jn 7: 37--39. Acts 1: 4--5.

The Baptism in the Holy Ghost isn't just to get people saved, [Although it does give us the power to be a witness] Acts 1: 8.
It's so we can do the same works as Jesus, Jn 14: 12, And we have the same Holy Ghost, Jn 14: 16--17.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

The people in Acts 8: 14, were already saved, [Born again of the Spirit], They had received the word of God got saved and was baptised in water, Vs 14--16. Then they were baptised in the Holy Ghost in v17.
And Saul, [Paul] was saved, [Born again of the Spirit], Acts 9: 6. He surrendered his will to God, V6. He had a vision, v12.
Ananias called Him, "Brother Saul". Then he received the baptism in the Holy Ghost, v17.


The disciples in Acts 19: 2-6, were saved for who knows how long, but they didn't receive the baptism in the Holy Ghost until Paul laid his hands on them, V 6.
Please note, Paul called them believers, V2, And Paul should know, Plus, Paul knew there was a separate experience to the rebirth, otherwise why would he say, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed", If there was only one experience, Paul would have know they had received the Holy Ghost.

Some of the disciples were born again in Jn 20: 22, but they wasn't baptised in the Holy Ghost until Acts 2.
Two different experiences.

Jesus had already revealed His plan for all people.
Believers will speak in tongues, [Have the baptism in the Holy Ghost]. Mk 16: 17. Lk 24: 49.Jn 7: 37--39. Acts 1: 4--5.

The Baptism in the Holy Ghost isn't just to get people saved, [Although it does give us the power to be a witness] Acts 1: 8.
It's so we can do the same works as Jesus, Jn 14: 12, And we have the same Holy Ghost, Jn 14: 16--17.

This is true, but we must not be ignorant of Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I agree that we receive Jesus Christ solely upon faith and believing, but we must not forget John the baptist who came to prepare the way of our Saviour with the baptism of repentance. That is the attitude we need to have in order to receive Jesus Christ, to admit that we are sinners and have the will to turn from living in them and come back to the Father by being obedient. It is the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ that saves us with this attitude (1 Peter 3:21):

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

People who are to receive Jesus Christ by being baptized of the Spirit into the body of Christ need to have this attitude towards their sins and about turning back to the Fathers commandments and not wanting to repeat them again. One does not always automatically get baptized into the body by hearing the gospel preached like the instance with them that heard Peter preach (Acts 10:44). Some people need to gain or or show this attitude of repentance in order to be baptized into the body of Christ, and the evidence of that good conscience towards Christ is the fruit that follows. Born again believers are to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ and strive for holiness by purifying their spirit and keeping of the commandments.

Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.4And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Now grace is the divine influence upon the heart that leads us to repentance of our sins and to Jesus Christ.

 

[notuptome]

Be careful what you attribute to satan

Be careful what you attribute to the Holy Spirit. God is not the author of confusion. The Holy Spirit does not act in contradiction to the word of God.

There is no scriptural support for tongues like seen at Pentecost and in the book of Acts is what todays Pentecostal charismatic church claims are tongues.

The whole thing has become about men and not about Christ. That alone should send up warnings to all who are involved.

Everything in the church is about Christ and not about men. Faith is about Christ and not about men. Faith comes from hearing the word of God not believing in yourself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Let's talk about those seducing spirits, Roger.

You're familiar with the personal experiences I have had (and related in my blogs). You think these are the result of seducing spirits. But let's look at the facts:

We are to test the spirits. One huge test is, does the spirit glorify God? Seducing spirits do not. That's not their purpose, far from.

The incident with the seas being stirred after a prayer of faith. That ended with the power of God being confirmed to a young boy. Would a seducing spirit confirm God's power to a young boy? Heck no, that's against their purpose.

The story about Vicki - here, a word of knowledge lead a woman to be removed from a demonic attack and taken to a place where she found comfort with the word of God and His people. Would a seducing spirit lead a woman from demonic attack to comfort in the word of God? No way. That's not their game plan.

How about the man who was angry with and rejecting God because he thought God had condemned his girlfriend to hell by taken her before she could choose Him? Here, a revelation delivered in spiritual prayer informed him that was not so, that God WAS with her at the end. Because of this, the man softened and reconsidered his hatred towards God. Would a seducing spirit work to soften and change a man's hatred of God? Methinks not.

How about you? You directly oppose the word of God on numerous occasions, and discount His power. Would seducing spirits lead a man to oppose God's word and deny His power? You betcha they will. That's their stock in trade.

Seducing spirits are at work here. But not where you think they are.

And that is why I try so hard to open your eyes to the truth.

We test the spirits by the word of God not what we believe to be the outcome. You must get back to the biblical Jesus and not the one of mans vain imagination.

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to bring souls to Christ.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Your formula is not Gods formula. Have you been seduced by the false premise of miracles and wonders over the word of God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[God4me]

This is true, but we must not be ignorant of Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I agree that we receive Jesus Christ solely upon faith and believing, but we must not forget John the baptist who came to prepare the way of our Saviour with the baptism of repentance. That is the attitude we need to have in order to receive Jesus Christ, to admit that we are sinners and have the will to turn from living in them and come back to the Father by being obedient. It is the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ that saves us with this attitude (1 Peter 3:21):

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

People who are to receive Jesus Christ by being baptized of the Spirit into the body of Christ need to have this attitude towards their sins and about turning back to the Fathers commandments and not wanting to repeat them again. One does not always automatically get baptized into the body by hearing the gospel preached like the instance with them that heard Peter preach (Acts 10:44). Some people need to gain or or show this attitude of repentance in order to be baptized into the body of Christ, and the evidence of that good conscience towards Christ is the fruit that follows. Born again believers are to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ and strive for holiness by purifying their spirit and keeping of the commandments.

Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.4And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Now grace is the divine influence upon the heart that leads us to repentance of our sins and to Jesus Christ.

One can only be saved by repenting, Lk 24: 47, and living completly for Jesus, 2 Cor 5: 14--17.

 

[popeye]

We test the spirits by the word of God not what we believe to be the outcome. You must get back to the biblical Jesus and not the one of mans vain imagination.

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to bring souls to Christ.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Your formula is not Gods formula. Have you been seduced by the false premise of miracles and wonders over the word of God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Woah ,dangerous ground here.

What you just did,unbiblically,was what Jesus framed as the unpardonable transgression.

"....but because you said 'he doeth it by devils',your sin can not be forgiven"

You sure you want to attribute what God gave his church,which you nor your teachers can disprove,TO THE DEVIL?

Last days paradox.

The heresy police as the ultimate heretics

 

[simplifiedtruth]

One can only be saved by repenting, Lk 24: 47, and living completly for Jesus, 2 Cor 5: 14--17.

Amen! My post only explains what attitude we need to have in order to receive Christ as our personal savior in order to be saved. If we don't repent we will all likewise perish.

 

[notuptome]

Woah ,dangerous ground here.

What you just did,unbiblically,was what Jesus framed as the unpardonable transgression.

"....but because you said 'he doeth it by devils',your sin can not be forgiven"

You sure you want to attribute what God gave his church,which you nor your teachers can disprove,TO THE DEVIL?

Last days paradox.

The heresy police as the ultimate heretics

The word of God is a twoedged sword. It cuts both ways. If you are judging me then by the same standard you judge yourself.

Provide scriptural evidence to support your contention that tongues are biblical in todays church. Show how they are the tongues seen in Acts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[popeye]

To say the gifts have ceased,is a sin against God's power.

That is the sin of Uriah. He tried to stop the ark from toppling off the cart.

Result was instant wrath.

Not a win,win for the Gods power maligners.

Woah ,heavy duty.

 

[popeye]

The word of God is a twoedged sword. It cuts both ways. If you are judging me then by the same standard you judge yourself.

Provide scriptural evidence to support your contention that tongues are biblical in todays church. Show how they are the tongues seen in Acts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ok,I accept.

I was saved in 1976 and received the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT on mother's day 1977.

You attribute what I KNOW came from heaven,to the devil.

So I have the WORD OF GOD to testify that what I received was indeed from heaven.

All you have is half a bible,and some Baptist humanoid teacher.

I do believe I am on much higher ground friend.

 

[CS1]

open thread for discussion on this topic

This is a very interesting subject which has in the past come down to three basic points

1. no they have ceased
2. yes they have not ceased
3. you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

There will be those who will pick one verse to support their understanding on the subject for or against Gifts . I would note the word " charismatic gifts " is not in the Bible , yet I could be wrong. I do know that the context of 1cor chapter 12, 13, 14 are to be read in together context. I would pray read all three chapters and look at the Old testament and New ( acts ) and see how the Holy Spirit empowered the people of God and ask does it happen today? ask does it happen to day. Not just the speaking gifts, or the healing gifts , or the faith gifts but do any of them? If the answer is yes then why would only the Holy Spirit use one or two of them and not all?

 

[popeye]

The new testament church had neither a copy of the NT, nor a Baptist minister to tell them they were wrong.

Oh,wait,they did have ministers to tell them they were wrong.

Iow , nothing really changed.

 

[popeye]

This is a very interesting subject which has in the past come down to three basic points

1. no they have ceased
2. yes they have not ceased
3. you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

There will be those who will pick one verse to support their understanding on the subject for or against Gifts . I would note the word " charismatic gifts " is not in the Bible , yet I could be wrong. I do know that the context of 1cor chapter 12, 13, 14 are to be read in together context. I would pray read all three chapters and look at the Old testament and New ( acts ) and see how the Holy Spirit empowered the people of God and ask does it happen today? ask does it happen to day. Not just the speaking gifts, or the healing gifts , or the faith gifts but do any of them? If the answer is yes then why would only the Holy Spirit use one or two of them and not all?

It is all available.

Americans have a different gospel,different devil,and much diminished manifestation of power.

We,instead have our money,insurance,comfy homes,and lazy ministers sitting back on their rear ends,NOT SEEKING THE FULL HORN OF THE ANOINTING.So,to cover their lazy selves,they preach the end to God's power,to cover their own backslidden condition.

I refuse that. I will say with Paul ,that I will be behind in NO GIFT.

So while you guys work tirelessly on disenfranchisement,I will pursue heaven.

 

[CS1]

It is all available.

Americans have a different gospel,different devil,and much diminished manifestation of power.

We,instead have our money,insurance,comfy homes,and lazy ministers sitting back on their rear ends,NOT SEEKING THE FULL HORN OF THE ANOINTING.So,to cover their lazy selves,they preach the end to God's power,to cover their own backslidden condition.

I refuse that. I will say with Paul ,that I will be behind in NO GIFT.

So while you guys work tirelessly on disenfranchisement,I will pursue heaven.

that is your opinion and I did not see any biblical reference to your position . Nor do I see anything that would prove God The Holy Spirit doesn't use the Gifts HE the Holy Spirit equips the be;liver with. I think there is a reason why they are called the " gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1cor chapter 12, 13, 14 .

 

[RickyZ]

We test the spirits by the word of God not what we believe to be the outcome. You must get back to the biblical Jesus and not the one of mans vain imagination.

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to bring souls to Christ.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Your formula is not Gods formula. Have you been seduced by the false premise of miracles and wonders over the word of God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So then, I'll add your comment about "false premise of miracles and wonders" to your list of quotes that directly oppose God's word.

And I suppose I should stop here, because with every attempt to correct and educate you, you sink deeper into unforgiveable blaspheme.

I worry about you, Roger, I really really do.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

God help us.

 

[RickyZ]

Here you go, Roger. Added to the list of your conflicts with the word of God:

********

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
Have you been seduced by the false premise of miracles and wonders?
Roger


********


(Upon discussion that the true gifts will in the end glorify God)

Matthew 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marveled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

1Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed! And no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit

1 John 4:4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.

Matthew 7: 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
We test the spirits … not by what we believe to be the outcome
Roger

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Here you go, Roger. Added to the list of your conflicts with the word of God:

********

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
Have you been seduced by the false premise of miracles and wonders?
Roger


********


(Upon discussion that the true gifts will in the end glorify God)

Matthew 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marveled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

1Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed! And no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit

1 John 4:4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.

Matthew 7: 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
We test the spirits … not by what we believe to be the outcome
Roger

From my perspective, this makes no sense.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Why do you guys dig up old threads and bicker?

 

[RickyZ]

Oops, cut John 14 short:


13 And whatever you ask in My Name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son