Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[RickyZ]

Another question I have had on the subject is whether or not those who believe they are speaking in tongues believe God to be controlling every muscle movement of their mouth?

Is every phoneme they utter exactly what God wants expressed? Or is there some percentage of human error in their phonemes?

Is God is specifically creating intelligible words and sentences in the person's mouth, or is something else happening?

I am not saying it is not happening. I just want to learn more about what is happening.

How can you tell the difference between a word God wants you to say and something your own subconscious brings up? Does God control your muscles, or does He give you images and your subconscious translates that into mouth muscle movements (the way we do with normal speaking)?

Prayer, discernment, experience... and testing.

Remember there are two kinds of tongues. One is prophecy with interpretation. That is an assembly event and normally reserved for leadership. At this point I don't think this is a concern for you are far as your question how asks, but an overall understanding of the 'process' helps. A church I went to had a rule that if someone in the assembly felt they were being led to prophesy, they should contact leadership. Same with someone feeling led to interpret. They all prayed for understanding and discernment, and if the consensus was that the Holy Spirit was indeed wanting to speak then they would be give the ok to speak when and as the Spirit led. While I don't find this exact template in the Bible, I do believe that it is of the need for order and not confusion as Paul spoke about in 1 Cor 14. Remember, Paul said he wants us all to do this, but that he'd rather we not do it than do it wrong and spread confusion. So that would be a test for an assembly, does the tongue elicit order or confusion?

Tongues in private prayer - more to your question and that's a hard one to describe. God doesn't give my mind the words and then I speak them (altho I do often have an idea of the subject of the prayer), nor does God control my lips. I physically move my lips, exhale and speak, but He controls the words that come out. I'm struggling on how to better describe it. It's one of those yielding in faith to the mysteries things. Kinda like Peter walking on the water. As long as Peter focused on Jesus he was ok. When his focus changed to the storm is when it went wrong. Focus on Jesus not your lips, and your lips will do what Jesus wants them to.

It might help to understand the origin of tongues. When man was created and as his numbers grew, he had a pure singular spiritual language. Man didn't lose that until the tower of Babel. Now, the purpose of the Messiah/Christ is to restore everything back to creation that man has lost. And one of those things He restores is that pure singular spiritual language. Jesus has indeed won the right to restore these things, but has yet to return to this world to enforce them. So He allows us to participate with Him thru the Holy Spirit to bring some of that restoration to the here and now, thru the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

For example, man was never meant to be sick. We lost eternal health at the fall. Jesus has the authority to restore that, and does so here and now thru the gift of healing.

Likewise, man was intended to have a singular language but lost it. Jesus has the authority to restore it, and He does so thru the gift of tongues.

In that sense, tongues are our native language, and we have to relearn it. Like you do in any language class, focus on the teacher and the lesson, and your lips will form the words as you speak without you having to think about it.

 

[RickyZ]

My apologies if that was a little more than you were looking for, I wanted to address some other things I saw in the thread while I was at it.

 

[ember]

Wow. ember just invited Roger to commit the unforgivable sin...

and ol' Rog is seriously considering it.

Stay tuned folks!

I would not do that; and you should not make a joke of it

He already stated exactly what I said...a good number of posters here know what he believes

I'm out of this thread...it's nothing but a rumble in elementary school ...and ignorance flying so fast you can't dodge

 

[miknik5]

Not Eve and to the rest there was no law as there was no tree of knowledge, what law did Noah obey?

Eve is not separate from Adam
If there was no "tree of Knowledge"...then was there also no "tree of Life"?

Noah obeyed the understanding that when he sinned, he needed a covering for it.
His two sons also understood that, but one sin didn't...and was cursed because of it.

 

[garee]

That's true, no one is required to speak in tongues.

But then again, when in their car no one is required to shift out of first gear either

Again the gift is not speaking in another language. People can go to school for that. They even have Apps on the smart phones.if a person desire to hear the gospel.

The gift is the "hearing of faith" (Christ's faith the word of God) ) called believing the prophecy. Peter spoke in his native tongue, Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God interpreted into the many different dialects of the 3000 he saved to the salvation of their soul

There is no such thing as a "sign gift" among the gifts . Signs as that seen ,are designed for the rebellious, prophecy, the hearing of faith is what the 3000 heard, as born again believers.

 

[EarnestQ]

Prayer, discernment, experience... and testing.

Remember there are two kinds of tongues. One is prophecy with interpretation. That is an assembly event and normally reserved for leadership. At this point I don't think this is a concern for you are far as your question how asks, but an overall understanding of the 'process' helps. A church I went to had a rule that if someone in the assembly felt they were being led to prophesy, they should contact leadership. Same with someone feeling led to interpret. They all prayed for understanding and discernment, and if the consensus was that the Holy Spirit was indeed wanting to speak then they would be give the ok to speak when and as the Spirit led. While I don't find this exact template in the Bible, I do believe that it is of the need for order and not confusion as Paul spoke about in 1 Cor 14. Remember, Paul said he wants us all to do this, but that he'd rather we not do it than do it wrong and spread confusion. So that would be a test for an assembly, does the tongue elicit order or confusion?

Tongues in private prayer - more to your question and that's a hard one to describe. God doesn't give my mind the words and then I speak them (altho I do often have an idea of the subject of the prayer), nor does God control my lips. I physically move my lips, exhale and speak, but He controls the words that come out. I'm struggling on how to better describe it. It's one of those yielding in faith to the mysteries things. Kinda like Peter walking on the water. As long as Peter focused on Jesus he was ok. When his focus changed to the storm is when it went wrong. Focus on Jesus not your lips, and your lips will do what Jesus wants them to.

It might help to understand the origin of tongues. When man was created and as his numbers grew, he had a pure singular spiritual language. Man didn't lose that until the tower of Babel. Now, the purpose of the Messiah/Christ is to restore everything back to creation that man has lost. And one of those things He restores is that pure singular spiritual language. Jesus has indeed won the right to restore these things, but has yet to return to this world to enforce them. So He allows us to participate with Him thru the Holy Spirit to bring some of that restoration to the here and now, thru the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

For example, man was never meant to be sick. We lost eternal health at the fall. Jesus has the authority to restore that, and does so here and now thru the gift of healing.

Likewise, man was intended to have a singular language but lost it. Jesus has the authority to restore it, and He does so thru the gift of tongues.

In that sense, tongues are our native language, and we have to relearn it. Like you do in any language class, focus on the teacher and the lesson, and your lips will form the words as you speak without you having to think about it.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It was by no means too long. It was the kind of answer I was looking for. (Indeed, if you can develop it any further, I would be grateful. Feel free to PM me if you feel more comfortable describing your experience that way.)

I long to understand the technical details of the "phenomenon" because that is the way I approach life. (Not to the exclusion of the Holy Spirit, but in conjunction with Him.) (Or so I vainly hope.)

 

[notuptome]

That's true, no one is required to speak in tongues.

But then again, when in their car no one is required to shift out of first gear either

The car goes nowhere until it is started just like the new birth takes that which is dead and make it alive unto new life in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

now now

turnaround is not fair play here

we all know how you applied that verse...considering your belief that those who speak in tongues have demon

really getting a tad childish here Roger...

And I thought the bible taught that only God can see into the heart.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

You should know about this one Rog.

IT IS TALKING ABOUT YOU

Who then is the accuser of the brethren?

Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

That's true, no one is required to speak in tongues.

But then again, when in their car no one is required to shift out of first gear either.

How does a person speak in tongue?. It’s about hearing not speaking. Is it not?

Tongue is twofold.

It confirms unbelief (no faith ) in respect to some, as a sign speaking of their rebellion .

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

And as prophecy it quickens the souls of others, as the wonderful works of God,( not Peter)

I think we must distinguish between the things of God and those of men .its where Satan, the father of lies get his foot in the door.

Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

It’s the hearing of tongues... the interpretation coming from God that gave those 3000 men the hearing of faith required to believe God to the salvation of their souls. It’s called prophecy. It is different than the sign for the rebellious.

The difference would be like having a car that you shift into gear ....and not having the car but using ones fleshly imagination as a source of their own faith, to shift the gears.

Signs are for those who believe not .(no faith) Prophecy, the source of faith for those who can shift, making the shifting burden easier if we are yoked with him. Without him we can do nothing .He increases the gears . . we decrease the gas .

God is no longer bringing any new revelations as prophecy, all manner of spirit by which God gave faith to the creature are sealed within the sealed word of God.

Does a person need more than he reveals in order to have the faith that surpasses all human understanding?

One of the question that I keep on the what I call back burner is.

When he returns, will he find faith or just a worn out religious book that can do nothing as far as quickening the soul so that then that we can have his understanding called the hearing of faith?

Biblical tongues has ended. New prophecy has ended. There is no outward sign that we can perform that guarantees us we are born again. No need.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

 

[notuptome]

How does a person speak in tongue?. It’s about hearing not speaking. Is it not?

Tongue is twofold.

It confirms unbelief (no faith ) in respect to some, as a sign speaking of their rebellion .

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

And as prophecy it quickens the souls of others, as the wonderful works of God,( not Peter)

I think we must distinguish between the things of God and those of men .its where Satan, the father of lies get his foot in the door.

Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

It’s the hearing of tongues... the interpretation coming from God that gave those 3000 men the hearing of faith required to believe God to the salvation of their souls. It’s called prophecy. It is different than the sign for the rebellious.

The difference would be like having a car that you shift into gear and not having the car but using ones fleshly imagination as a source of their own faith, to shift the gears.

Signs are for those who believe not .(no faith) Prophecy, the source of faith for those who can shift he makes the shifting burden easier if we are yoked with him without him we can do nothing .He increases the gears . . we decrease the gas .
God is no longer bringing any new revelations as prophecy, all manner of spirit by which God gave faith to the creature are sealed within the sealed word of God.

Does a person need more than he reveals in order to have the faith that surpasses all human understanding?

One of the question that I keep on the what I call back burner is.

When he returns, will he find faith or just a worn out religious book that can do nothing as far as quickening the soul so that then that we can have his understanding called the hearing of faith?

Biblical tongues has ended. New prophecy has ended. There is no outward sign that we can perform that guarantees us we are born again. No need.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

I've asked this same question many times and it does not produce a unified answer from those who claim to have the gift.

I can see where when we speak we should desire to be understood which would be an evidence of the Holy Spirit ministering the word of God in their hearts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

I've asked this same question many times and it does not produce a unified answer from those who claim to have the gift.

I can see where when we speak we should desire to be understood which would be an evidence of the Holy Spirit ministering the word of God in their hearts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Then you do believe it has nothing to do with the speaker but does with the Holy Spirit, not seen, who does the interpreting

 

[notuptome]

Then you do believe it has nothing to do with the speaker but does with the Holy Spirit, not seen, who does the interpreting

That is a fair assessment of what occurred at Pentecost. God does the work through vessels of His choosing.

Seeking, desiring, and coveting the gifts means keeping oneself clean before the Lord and able to be fitted to His use.

Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

I would not do that; and you should not make a joke of it

He already stated exactly what I said...a good number of posters here know what he believes

I'm out of this thread...it's nothing but a rumble in elementary school ...and ignorance flying so fast you can't dodge

Hi ember

I wasn't accusing you of wrongdoing. It was more along the lines of, finally someone willing to cut to the chase and get the inevitable over with.

And I agree that committing the unpardonable sin is nothing to joke about... altho I do consider Roger's gross lack of understanding to be funny for one who claims so much knowledge.

Especially since he considers knowledge passé.

 

[notuptome]

... altho I do consider Roger's gross lack of understanding to be funny for one who claims so much knowledge.

Especially since he considers knowledge passé.

If you care to make a credible argument from scripture we will have a basis for discussion. As long as you continue to malign and misrepresent the scriptures we will remain in opposition.

Why do you desire the three gifts that ended?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[popeye]

If you care to make a credible argument from scripture we will have a basis for discussion. As long as you continue to malign and misrepresent the scriptures we will remain in opposition.

Why do you desire the three gifts that ended?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

LOL...PICK ONE YOU WERE ALREADY SHOWN

 

[notuptome]

LOL...PICK ONE YOU WERE ALREADY SHOWN

Well your boast is about to be your downfall.

Does your church exhibit tongues like those of Pentecost? Does one speak and all present hear in their natural languages? If not how can you claim the gift of tongues?

Acts 2: 1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grace777x70]

For someone to say to me that some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today is on par with an atheist coming up to me and telling me that Jesus is dead.

It is even in the scriptures.....see....it's right here in Matthew ...Jesus' body was placed in a tomb.

Matthew 27:59-60 (KJV)
[SUP]59 [/SUP] And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
[SUP]60 [/SUP] And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

 

[notuptome]

For someone to say to me that some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today is on par with an atheist coming up to me and telling me that Jesus is dead.

It is even in the scriptures.....see....it's right here in Matthew ...Jesus' body was placed in a tomb.

Matthew 27:59-60 (KJV)
[SUP]59 [/SUP] And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
[SUP]60 [/SUP] And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

You like to fish so I guess that's where you caught this red herring.

Scripture said Jesus rose from the dead and scripture said three sign gifts ended. Why do you believe one scripture and not the other?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grace777x70]

You like to fish so I guess that's where you caught this red herring.

Scripture said Jesus rose from the dead and scripture said three sign gifts ended. Why do you believe one scripture and not the other?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I'll believe the gifts left when knowledge has been done away with too. ( 1 Cor. 13:8 )...until then...I will pray with my spirit and I will pray with my mind. I love to sing in tongues too..what a blessing that is.! Do it Roger...you'll be blessed! Seek the Lord on it and He will fill you. He will be faithful to you.

As I say...trying to tell me that tongues is not for today is the same thing as an atheist trying to tell me Jesus is dead. I know better on both fronts.

1 Corinthians 14:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.