The spiritual force of sin is satan. If Christ became actual sin that means he became satan.
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The spiritual force of sin is satan. If Christ became actual sin that means he became satan.
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Kefa54
Guest
I have to run off to Church worship...
So far I have that a male without defect was slaughtered. The body was to God and the blood was used for the atonement.
Now what?....BBL
Kefa
So far I have that a male without defect was slaughtered. The body was to God and the blood was used for the atonement.
Now what?....BBL
Kefa
Surely, you jest! I can hardly believe I read that. The first thing we know of sin is that "Sin entered the world..."
The way I see it is that the blood witnesses that a death for sin has occurred, essentially covering it from GOD's eyes that cry for justice; and the burnt offering represents the complete destruction of the sinner on earth (ashes) and the sweet smell of justice ascending to the throne of GOD in heaven (smoke). Compare the burnt offering to Jacob's ladder, who is Christ.
And he said to him, “Truly, truly I say to all of you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.” John 1:51
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Fair enough. By saying noun I meant a noun representing a physical object. So to be more clear, I don't think sin is ever described as a physical object in the bible (in fact, I know it's not).
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shotgunner
Guest
Not at all! it means that he became spiritually connected to Satan just as we did through the sin of Adam. Jesus became sin by faith, not by action.
I honestly believe that Jesus had to pay the full price of sin, which would be separation from God and connection to Satan. Jesus had always called God father until the cross. There on the cross he cried out. "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?" This clearly shows me that he suffered separation from God. The Psalm when speaking of it says, Again you will be to me a son.
The spiritual connection to Satan is represented as having become sin. Christ has redeemed us from sin, not from the ability to commit sin though,we can still sin and all do sin. What we are redeemed from is the spiritual connection to sin and Satan. That's why Paul says, "it is no longer I that do it but sin that dwells in my body." There is now a disconnection between Spirit and body. The body is dead because of sin but the Spirit is alive because of Christ and is in fact one with Christ. This is rightly so since we are now prepared to receive a spiritual body that is without decay. Jesus being the first to have received this body. Remember though that spiritual is not without substance. The disciples touched Jesus yet he walked into the room ,the door being shut.
The word again in Hebrews 1:5 is a continuation of scriptural example, not "you will be my son again".
For to which of the angels did he ever say, “You are my son, today I have fathered you,” and again, “I will be his father, and he will be my son”? Hebrews 1:5
Christ's body is spiritual 'substance', not physical (natural) substance. Substance by definition is physical.
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shotgunner
Guest
You can define it any way you want but Christ's body has substance, yet is without decay and can do things that we can't ascribe to a physical body.
God did turn away from Jesus on the cross. He had to loose his relationship with the Father. If he didn't then you wouldn't be allowed a relationship. Christ had to pay in every way for our guilt, yet he was without guilt, for it was our guilt that he carried.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Why do people make things so hard?
Is 53: [SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But He was wounded for our transgressions,He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,And by His stripes we are healed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all
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Mitspa
Guest
Is that iniquity a spiritual force of "sin"...as you can see..there is some debate about the issue...I have made my position rather clear.... so why you act like this could not be a issue of discussion is the only thing that seems odd to me
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Is that iniquity a spiritual force of "sin"...as you can see..there is some debate about the issue...I have made my position rather clear.... so why you act like this could not be a issue of discussion is the only thing that seems odd to me
I wonder why there is a discussion at all. (your the one who brought it up did you not?)
My iniquity was placed on him and he took the penalty I deserved. It is called redemption.
What spiritual force? Again where does that come from?
We see from the roman church what happens when we try to spiritualize things, and not take them literally.
The Hebrew literally says
... and YHWH intercedes in him all of our depravity. Isaiah 53:6
M
Mitspa
Guest
No... your going beyond what is written to make your point...clearly sin and satan are both negative forces... but they are clearly separated in scripture. The scripture clearly reads "He became sin" not the devil. The devil is not to blame for the our sinful actions ..."sin in the flesh" is.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes, The Hebrew can be used to make intercession for us.
7003 פָּגַע (pā·ḡǎʿ): v.; ≡ Str 6293; TWOT 1731—1. LN 19.1–19.13 (qal) strike, i.e., make physical impact on an object which will result in harm or death (1Sa 22:17, 18; Jdg 15:12; 18:25); (hif) strike, impact upon (Job 36:32+); 2. LN 15.75–15.80 (qal) meet, come to, i.e., come to an area by linear movement and come near another object in an encounter (Ge 28:11; 32:2[EB 1]; Ex 5:20); 3. LN 33.347–33.348 (qal) intercede for, spare, help, i.e., to speak on behalf of someone else, with a focus that the encounter is effective (Ge 23:8; Isa 47:3); (hif) make intercession, intervene (Isa 53:12; 59:16+); 4. LN 84.1–84.15 (qal) touch, extend, border, i.e., reach out from a source to an extremity (Jos 19:11); 5. LN 33.299–33.306 (qal) plead with, i.e., speak in a way to encourage a particular behavior (Ru 1:16; Job 21:15; Jer 7:16; 27:18), note: this can be to either God or mankind; (hif) plead, urge (Jer 15:11; 36:25+); 6. LN 13.1–13.47 (qal) cause, strike, i.e., cause a state to exist (Ex 5:3); (hif) cause, make encounter (Isa 53:6+)
Again, redemption He took the penalty of my sin.
Think also of the scapegoat.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Yes I made the thread...you come on acting as if your some biblical guru ... so I wanted to give you the chance to show how simple it is....which you have not done
Okay, maybe this is better:
God the Father united the Divine life of Christ with our corporate fallen life from Mary's womb. In doing this Christ also became "the Son of Man". Hence "He was made sin"...not made a sinner. He took upon His sinless Deity, our fallen life indwelt with sin.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes I made the thread...you come on acting as if your some biblical guru ... so I wanted to give you the chance to show how simple it is....which you have not done
Well I was trying to be nice. But you want to make it more difficult than it actually is.
When the Bible says that Jesus became sin for us,it is His human body that bore our sins,as our sacrifice,but when Jesus was buried He lay down those sins,and He put off the human body to have a spiritual body,like the saints will have.God said there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh,and that also includes Jesus' human body,which He was tempted like we are,yet without sin.
The trouble with language is words summarise ideas but are just labels.
Sins are actions. But before the actions comes the intent. Sin pollutes and destroys, so a person becomes a sinner. So because of sin, the sinner is rejected. So I could say Jesus became the act of rebellion, to remove the debt, to swallow up the effect on the sinner, to make them the redeemed.
To then call sin a force, is to corrupt the intent. Once you use this language, the sinner once has the force removed, they are now perfect, but this is obviously not true or even hopeful. If Jesus became sin, literally universally, then no one is a sinner anymore because sin has been dealt with, but this is clearly not the case, we still sin.
Jesus became the debt for sin we have. I would put it in these terms. Jesus became Gods righteous position about our rebellion. He took the worst man could throw at him and forgave them. This was God saying, this is my nature, I see your blindness, your evil, your hatred and I forgive you if you walk in my ways, if you know my heart, if you accept my Holy Spirit, if you believe in who I am. But you have to believe in me, my actions, my words, I will forgive you.
In a sense Jesus became the victim of all those actions we have done, and said I forgive you, if you see who I am, you will be healed, just like the brass snake lifted up in the desert. The power of sin is our belief God does not love us, we have to snatch all we can when we can. The world changes if you see God does love, literally, and desires to change your heart, to give you new birth, to teach you a new way.
This concept is so difficult to get across, a sacrifice of blood pays for the sinful action to bring things right again. It is so much more than a legal balancing act, it is the blazing light of love in action.
Sins are actions. But before the actions comes the intent. Sin pollutes and destroys, so a person becomes a sinner. So because of sin, the sinner is rejected. So I could say Jesus became the act of rebellion, to remove the debt, to swallow up the effect on the sinner, to make them the redeemed.
To then call sin a force, is to corrupt the intent. Once you use this language, the sinner once has the force removed, they are now perfect, but this is obviously not true or even hopeful. If Jesus became sin, literally universally, then no one is a sinner anymore because sin has been dealt with, but this is clearly not the case, we still sin.
Jesus became the debt for sin we have. I would put it in these terms. Jesus became Gods righteous position about our rebellion. He took the worst man could throw at him and forgave them. This was God saying, this is my nature, I see your blindness, your evil, your hatred and I forgive you if you walk in my ways, if you know my heart, if you accept my Holy Spirit, if you believe in who I am. But you have to believe in me, my actions, my words, I will forgive you.
In a sense Jesus became the victim of all those actions we have done, and said I forgive you, if you see who I am, you will be healed, just like the brass snake lifted up in the desert. The power of sin is our belief God does not love us, we have to snatch all we can when we can. The world changes if you see God does love, literally, and desires to change your heart, to give you new birth, to teach you a new way.
This concept is so difficult to get across, a sacrifice of blood pays for the sinful action to bring things right again. It is so much more than a legal balancing act, it is the blazing light of love in action.