He that turns his ear from hearing the law...

[PeterJens]

There is sometimes a sin behind the obvious sin. For example: If I steal food from a store. That is a sin called stealing but behind this sinning is the real sin of unbelief that my Father will take care of me and thus I am taking things into my own hands. This means that I am trusting in myself and NOT in our loving Father.

If you want to listen to the accuser of the brethren here he is.
Everything you do which can be taken as not loving God is now sin, or not keeping your eyes
on Him.

So eating is sin, because you should love God with everything and eating is selfish, because eating
keeps you alive and that is not trusting God, so is unbelief and sin.

It is the logic of insanity where everything can be argued from a position of absolutes that God does
not use. And if God does not use it, this condemnation is of the enemy.

So beware those who claim they are free from condemnation but drip it in all their concepts.
God calls us His Holy people, blameless in His sight.
Paul encourages believers to purify themselves, to walk in integrity and holiness.

But by the ethics of grace777 this is impossible, so even the angels are in sin.

I truly wish this poison would disappear because it seems on the surface nice and caring,
but is just extreme heresy.

 

[KohenMatt]

Abraham was not under the Mosaic Covenant...

Obviously.

God made an unconditional covenant with Abraham called the Abrahamic Covenant and is categorized by the formula: I WILL which declares God's determination to fulfill what he has promised.....Abraham's covenant had zero to do with Mosaic Law. It had to do with 14 provisions that are to wordy to post here...The covenant was between God and Abraham with Abraham standing in for the Jewish nation and not the gentiles...it has yet to be fulfilled.

Correct.

Exodus 19 is God speaking to Moses not Abraham....

The Mosaic covenant[the law] was a conditional covenant categorized by the formula of If MAN does, then GOD will.....

The Law did not come until 430 years after Abraham....Gal 3.17

Correct. God covenants with Abraham saying God will have a chosen people. The Mosaic covenant tells Israel that if they walk in obedience, they will be God's people. If they don't, they're not the ones God promises in the Abrahamic. It's like a subset covenant.

I would expect the Hebrews roots movement to at least teach you there are 8 Bible covenants and not 2

Yes, there are multiple covenants. Adamic, Noadic, Davidic, etc.

And again, there is no set doctrine or denomination of "Hebrew Roots" anymore than there is a set doctrine or denomination of Charismatics.

 

[eph610]

Obviously.



Correct.



Correct. God covenants with Abraham saying God will have a chosen people. The Mosaic covenant tells Israel that if they walk in obedience, they will be God's people. If they don't, they're not the ones God promises in the Abrahamic. It's like a subset covenant.




Yes, there are multiple covenants. Adamic, Noadic, Davidic, etc.

And again, there is no set doctrine or denomination of "Hebrew Roots" anymore than there is a set doctrine or denomination of Charismatics.

If you agree here then why are you telling us the Old Covenant is an extension of the Abrahamic Covenant?

 

[KohenMatt]

If you agree here then why are you telling us the Old Covenant is an extension of the Abrahamic Covenant?

The Mosaic Covenant is a subset of the Abrahamic. If Israel was to be part of the promise of the Abrahamic, they needed to fulfill the Mosaic. If they didn't obey God through the Mosaic, they were disqualified from the Abrahamic.

 

[eph610]

The Mosaic Covenant is a subset of the Abrahamic. If Israel was to be part of the promise of the Abrahamic, they needed to fulfill the Mosaic. If they didn't obey God through the Mosaic, they were disqualified from the Abrahamic.

I see where you are going, but they are both different covenants.....the Abraham is unconditional and not fulfilled, the Old Covenant was conditional and fulfilled entirely....Jesus Fulfilled it.

 

[KohenMatt]

I see where you are going, but they are both different covenants.....the Abraham is unconditional and not fulfilled, the Old Covenant was conditional and fulfilled entirely....Jesus Fulfilled it.

Right, they are different. One unconditional, one conditional.

Abraham's is unconditional. God WILL have a nation, no matter what.
Mosaic is conditional. IF you obey, you WILL be a part of that nation.

And through the New Covenant, no matter if you obey or disobey, as long as you rest in Jesus' sacrifice you ARE a part of the Abrahamic promise.

 

[JGIG]

OK, quick answers for you, then:

1) The reason God told Israel to keep the Law was for them to continue in the Covenant He made with Abraham. If they obeyed, He would fulfill the Covenant. If they disobeyed, they nullified the Covenant. If they repented of their disobedience, God forgave and the Covenant was fulfilled.

Exodus 19:5-6 "Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’"

So the Law was given to put conditions on the unconditional covenant God made with Abraham?

Abraham entered into the Covenant of Grace by faith.

Israel entered into the Covenant of Law by offering sacrifices, sealing the agreement they made with God.

Do you not think that they had the option to say, "No, God! We want the covenant you made with Abraham! We choose to trust You! We choose the Covenant of Grace!"

There is no mention of the purpose "To point out their sin" or to "point to the need for a Savior" or "to show them they couldn't keep it perfectly." Any other purposes set forth by any man were misapplications of the original Law.

So you reject the Scriptures which do tell us that the Law was given to point out sin, to lead us to Christ, and is the power of sin?

Which parts of the Bible do you suggest we tear out of our Bibles?

Or . . . was the purpose revealed to later generations:

2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. (from Eph. 3)


​

25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom,so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. 29 To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me. (from Col. 1)​

2) God didn't tell Israel to go to Jerusalem for the Feasts or to offer sacrifices. Jerusalem wasn't a part of Israel until a couple of hundred years after the Law. Nowhere in the giving of the Law did God tell Israel to go to Jerusalem. God did tell them to offer up sacrifices in the place "where He chose to place His name." (Deuteronomy 16)

16 Three times a year all your men must appear before the Lord your God at the place he will choose: at the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the Festival of Weeks and the Festival of Tabernacles. No one should appear before the Lord empty-handed: 17 Each of you must bring a gift in proportion to the way the Lord your God has blessed you. (from Deut. 16)

​

That place that God chose was eventually Jerusalem, was it not?

Is that not where Jesus went to observe the Feasts?

Is it not your stated intention to walk as Jesus walked in obedience to the Law?

So are you going?

To Jerusalem?

For the coming Fall Feast?

Just as Jesus did?

After all, it is not too difficult for you, right?

Especially in this modern age with ease of travel?

So are you (or disciplemike or any other Law-teachers/keepers) going?


-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The Mosaic Covenant is a subset of the Abrahamic. If Israel was to be part of the promise of the Abrahamic, they needed to fulfill the Mosaic. If they didn't obey God through the Mosaic, they were disqualified from the Abrahamic.

Hmmmm . . .

Interesting theory.

Got Scripture to back it up?

Abraham's covenant was entered into by faith, not by works of the Law (mostly because the Law was not until 430 years after Abraham!)

What does Scripture actually say about this?

The following is from Paul, whose credentials are: "If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless." (from Phil. 3)

So what says Paul?

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”

12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. (from Gal. 3)​

Your theory stands utterly contradicted and fatally flawed by Scripture.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The Mosaic Covenant is a subset of the Abrahamic. If Israel was to be part of the promise of the Abrahamic, they needed to fulfill the Mosaic. If they didn't obey God through the Mosaic, they were disqualified from the Abrahamic.

Right, they are different. One unconditional, one conditional.

Abraham's is unconditional. God WILL have a nation, no matter what.
Mosaic is conditional. IF you obey, you WILL be a part of that nation.

Wait, what?

Is the Abrahamic Covenant, in your view unconditional or conditional?

I ask, because in the two posts above, authored by you, you state:

• 
  Originally Posted by KohenMatt
  If Israel was to be part of the promise of the Abrahamic, they needed to fulfill the Mosaic. If they didn't obey God through the Mosaic, they were disqualified from the Abrahamic.

Which makes the Abrahamic Covenant conditional according to what you have written.

Then you state:

• 
  Originally Posted by KohenMatt
  Abraham's is unconditional. God WILL have a nation, no matter what.
  Mosaic is conditional. IF you obey, you WILL be a part of that nation.

And you must be speaking in code there, because your point is not at all clear.

And about that nation thing - becoming Israel is by birth.

Becoming part of the Body of Christ is by RE-birth through faith in Christ.

And through the New Covenant, no matter if you obey or disobey, as long as you rest in Jesus' sacrifice you ARE a part of the Abrahamic promise.

Huh. So you're preaching Law-keeping why?

If it's all Jesus, then WHY?

And we come back to this:

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? (from Gal. 3)​

-JGIG

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hmmmm . . .

Interesting theory.

Got Scripture to back it up?

Abraham's covenant was entered into by faith, not by works of the Law (mostly because the Law was not until 430 years after Abraham!)

What does Scripture actually say about this?

The following is from Paul, whose credentials are: "If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless." (from Phil. 3)

So what says Paul?

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”

12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. (from Gal. 3)​

Your theory stands utterly contradicted and fatally flawed by Scripture.

-JGIG

Your are right on target here JGIG. Unfortunately, they never get it.

They never understand that the power of sin is the law.

They never understand that to put oneself under the law, that the whole law has to be kept perfectly all the time.

They don't understand that Jesus rescued us from the curse of the law by meeting its righteous requirements perfectly and thereby fulfilling it.

They, like Israel, are attempting to find favor with God by performing some of the works of the law.

It appears that it was not only Israel that stumbled over the stumbling stone.

 

[JGIG]

Your are right on target here JGIG. Unfortunately, they never get it.

They never understand that the power of sin is the law.

They never understand that to put oneself under the law, that the whole law has to be kept perfectly all the time.

They don't understand that Jesus rescued us from the curse of the law by meeting its righteous requirements perfectly and thereby fulfilling it.

They, like Israel, are attempting to find favor with God by performing some of the works of the law.

It appears that it was not only Israel that stumbled over the stumbling stone.

I agree.

BUT!

I've interacted with Law-keepers since 2006, and there ARE those who finally see GRACE and go on to live fruitful lives in Christ - often with an extra oomph of joy after having been under the Law!

So it is for them and the readers (especially young believers who may be swayed as the believers in Galatia were swayed) that I post .

And I gotta say - It's really wonderfully exhilarating to proclaim the Good News! And the foundation of the Gospel becomes firmer and firmer in my mind and heart each time I see a new argument against the Gospel come, because I get to see again and again how God has orchestrated His Gospel to easily stand against each and every new argument that comes \o/!

God is so cool \/ !

-JGIG

 

[PennEd]

At the risk of puffing you up, I wish you would come post more often!

 

[JGIG]

At the risk of puffing you up, I wish you would come post more often!

Aw, thanks .

I post when I can .

-JGIG

 

[disciplemike]

We appreciate all the comments. Even if we don't agree with every word, we may learn something.


Keep posting. I am reading.

 

[ladylynn]

It's crucial to go back to the Law and read God's words at the time to see why He gave it. It helps bring Paul's words into a better clarity.

This was already shared on these threads quite a few times before but it bears/bares repeating (spell check doesn't help me here)

"The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament REVEALED."

 

[ladylynn]

Lots of comments here, just take a look.
Some say they don't serve the God of that Old Book.

"No law for me", that is their banner.
Grace alone, so mind your manners.

Oh what a shock to find, when we hear that trumpet blast,
the God of the First Covenant is the God of the Last.

Keep the comments coming. We are reading.

Hey hey hey!! Another place for this not used enough statement should go!

"The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed., The New Testament is the Old Testament REVEALED!"

 

[heavenly_bound]

This is an interesting statement. God is saying no man outside those who have
communion with Him can keep the law.

Those who emphasis the statement above above everything else deny even in communion
His people follow Jesus truly. And this is the point, they are in pure denial of Jesus's
victory on the cross. If Christ cannot transform us to follow Him in righteousness what is
the point?

The problem is that you think Jesus came to make your old life a better one or to make you able to follow him in righteousness. nothing can be further from the truth. Christ work made you a completely new being that never existed before. And that was done in Him and not apart of Him.

 

[eph610]

Right, they are different. One unconditional, one conditional.

Abraham's is unconditional. God WILL have a nation, no matter what.
Mosaic is conditional. IF you obey, you WILL be a part of that nation.

And through the New Covenant, no matter if you obey or disobey, as long as you rest in Jesus' sacrifice you ARE a part of the Abrahamic promise.

The Abrahamic physical promises were given to Jews only, Gentiles only receive the spiritual blessings of that covenant....and only through Messiah....gentiles also receive a blessing for blessing Israel....

The covenant was made between God and ABraham with Abraham standing in for all Jews and not for all of humanity

 

[LaurenTM]

The Abrahamic physical promises were given to Jews only, Gentiles only receive the spiritual blessings of that covenant....and only through Messiah....gentiles also receive a blessing for blessing Israel....

The covenant was made between God and ABraham with Abraham standing in for all Jews and not for all of humanity

let's not confuse them

they believe they are Jewish now

 

[ladylynn]

The Mosaic Covenant is a subset of the Abrahamic. If Israel was to be part of the promise of the Abrahamic, they needed to fulfill the Mosaic. If they didn't obey God through the Mosaic, they were disqualified from the Abrahamic.

If I could post one of those little videos of someone doing double takes and asking "What did you say?"
This is where I'd put it.