Hell, Sheol, Hades...

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Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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The so-called fallen nature is believed to be propagated by parents. Oh?
Then whence did Eve obtain it?

She was already alive and fully constructed with material taken from Adam's
body prior to the forbidden fruit incident. Since himself tasted the fruit after
his wife was already in existence; then it was impossible for Adam to pass
the fallen nature to her by means of his body.

In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had
something to do with the first couple's altered moral perception; but now I
seriously doubt it because Eve was the first to eat the fruit, and when she
did, nothing happened. She remained just as shameless in the buff as
before. It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that she began to feel exposed; so
I'm pretty sure that the underlying cause is far more serious than the
chemistry of that fruit.

FAQ: If Eve's altered moral perception wasn't due to the fruit, nor due to
Adam's body, then what?

REPLY: Mr. Serpent is the logical source, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2) He has
the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human
body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke 13:16,
Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.

FAQ: Why wasn't the woman effected by the Serpent's power when she
tasted the forbidden fruit?

REPLY: It was apparently God's decision that if sin and death were to come
into the world, they would come via a lone male's actions just as life and
righteousness would later be offered to the world via a lone male's actions.
(Rom 5:12-21)

FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of
the womb?

REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but
I'm guessing that for most of us it's in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3)

* I really have to hand it to the Serpent; he's very good at shifting blame
away from himself. For quite a few years now it's been traditional to believe
parents propagate the fallen nature; when it's been the Serpent all along.
Jesus' statement: "You are of your father the Devil" wasn't idle slander;
rather, it was 100% fact. (John 8:44)
_
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,149
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113
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The so-called fallen nature is believed to be propagated by parents. Oh?
Then whence did Eve obtain it?


She was already alive and fully constructed with material taken from Adam's
body prior to the forbidden fruit incident. Since himself tasted the fruit after
his wife was already in existence; then it was impossible for Adam to pass
the fallen nature to her by means of his body.


In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had
something to do with the first couple's altered moral perception; but now I
seriously doubt it because Eve was the first to eat the fruit, and when she
did, nothing happened. She remained just as shameless in the buff as
before. It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that she began to feel exposed; so
I'm pretty sure that the underlying cause is far more serious than the
chemistry of that fruit.


FAQ: If Eve's altered moral perception wasn't due to the fruit, nor due to
Adam's body, then what?


REPLY: Mr. Serpent is the logical source, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2) He has
the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human
body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke 13:16,
Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.


The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.


FAQ: Why wasn't the woman effected by the Serpent's power when she
tasted the forbidden fruit?


REPLY: It was apparently God's decision that if sin and death were to come
into the world, they would come via a lone male's actions just as life and
righteousness would later be offered to the world via a lone male's actions.
(Rom 5:12-21)


FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of
the womb?


REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but
I'm guessing that for most of us it's in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3)


* I really have to hand it to the Serpent; he's very good at shifting blame
away from himself. For quite a few years now it's been traditional to believe
parents propagate the fallen nature; when it's been the Serpent all along.
Jesus' statement: "You are of your father the Devil" wasn't idle slander;
rather, it was 100% fact. (John 8:44)
_
Eve was deceived but Adam was not, I believe is the explanation offered. So, it seems that deception does have its detrimental influence but, going by the laws of good business practice, it possesses a legitimate claim a pursuit for recourse. On the other hand, Adam was fully aware of his 'purchase' and wittingly agreed to its 'fair value.'
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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Eve was deceived but Adam was not, I believe is the explanation offered.

Had Adam's wife been ignorant of the ban on the fruit, she might've had an
excuse but according to Gen 3:2, Eve was fully aware it was off limits.

I often encounter defiant women online who insist Adam take full
responsibility for the forbidden fruit incident, but 1Tim 2:14 says Eve was
in on the caper just as deeply as Adam. Apparently deception isn't a mitigating
circumstance with God. (cf. 2Thes 2:11-12)
_
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,149
2,167
113
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Had Adam's wife been ignorant of the ban on the fruit, she might've had an
excuse but according to Gen 3:2, Eve was fully aware it was off limits.


I often encounter defiant women online who insist Adam take full
responsibility for the forbidden fruit incident, but 1Tim 2:14 says Eve was
in on the caper just as deeply as Adam. Apparently deception isn't a mitigating
circumstance with God. (cf. 2Thes 2:11-12)
_
Deceived not deceived. Is that anything like "Sorry, not sorry"?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
.



Had Adam's wife been ignorant of the ban on the fruit, she might've had an
excuse but according to Gen 3:2, Eve was fully aware it was off limits.


I often encounter defiant women online who insist Adam take full
responsibility for the forbidden fruit incident, but 1Tim 2:14 says Eve was
in on the caper just as deeply as Adam. Apparently deception isn't a mitigating
circumstance with God. (cf. 2Thes 2:11-12)
_
Agreed. No excuses. God's Son paid a high price for the disobedience of all mankind (which includes both genders).
Genesis 3
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,779
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Want more what?

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me [i]to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to [k]hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

The worm doesn't die.

The fire never goes out.

These are qualities of Sheol.

Haven't you heard: Hell/Sheol is cast into the Lake of Fire and tormented until the end of this age. Then God becomes "all in all" after a new heaven and new earth are made.

You're willing to say God becomes the tormented demons and the tortured souls for all eternity... Not me. Maybe that's Hinduism or Zoroastrianism?
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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The worm doesn't die.

The fire never goes out.

These are qualities of Sheol.

Haven't you heard: Hell/Sheol is cast into the Lake of Fire and tormented until the end of this age. Then God becomes "all in all" after a new heaven and new earth are made.

You're willing to say God becomes the tormented demons and the tortured souls for all eternity... Not me. Maybe that's Hinduism or Zoroastrianism?
God does not torture anyone

They torture themselves. as they are cast out from him for all eternity..He purchased their freedom. they rejected it
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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Deceived not deceived. Is that anything like "Sorry, not sorry"?
She was deceived in the way that all of us can be deceived by Satan. Sin looks nice and tasty. We rationalize that this makes it good. Such deception can always be avoided by absolute obedience to what God has told us and shown us.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,149
2,167
113
She was deceived in the way that all of us can be deceived by Satan. Sin looks nice and tasty. We rationalize that this makes it good. Such deception can always be avoided by absolute obedience to what God has told us and shown us.
Absolutely. She trusted the lie, instead of God's word, and that always results in much pain and loss.
 
Oct 12, 2021
165
21
18
Yes there is lots of symbolic language, that actually works against conditional immortality not in support of it.

Deuteronomy 12:2
2 You shall utterly destroy all the places where the nations which you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree.

Did God make these places non- existent or is there matter that comprises those places still somewhere on this planet.

Do you know the first law of thermodynamics?
LOL Now I know that you are a games player - and it must be said - not very good at the game you're playing.

IF you stopped playing silly games and took serious matters seriously and engaged your God-given brain you would have understood that the Scripture you quoted is about utterly destroying the religious practices of those devil worshippers!
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
Haven't you heard: Hell/Sheol is cast into the Lake of Fire and tormented until the end of this age.
Thats something I hadn't seen or thought about until now. "Death and Hell" might likely pertain to those who remain in it at that time. The first resurrection is already past at that point.

The last stage of the first resurrection...
Revelation 20:5
“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

The second resurrection...
Revelation 20:14
“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

The very next verse verifies this.
Revelation 20:15
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
the Scripture you quoted is about utterly destroying the religious practices of those devil worshippers!
Try again.

Deuteronomy 12:2
2 You shall utterly destroy all the places where the nations which you shall dispossess served their gods

Sin and the practice of it will be all around us for a little bit longer, I'm afraid.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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Haven't you heard: Hell/Sheol is cast into the Lake of Fire and tormented until the end of this age.
But that's not what the text states, actually.

It says that "death" and "hell/hades" are cast into the lake of fire at the same time-slot that Satan is cast into the lake of fire (that is, at the GWTj time-slot), and of Satan (not to mention the "beast [individual-man aspect]" and the "false prophet") it is said, at this point, "and THEY SHALL BE TORMENTED unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" [not "until the end of this age [singular]" as you suggest is stated in this context], which underlined phrase I've posted about in past posts, and will place one (quoted in part) here for the readers' review:



Post #238 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677518



[quoting old post, in part]

My point is that ALL 21x TIMES THIS SPECIFIC PHRASE [in BLUE, below] IS USED, it always MEANS THE SAME THING:



[quoting from Post #196]


"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" -

(what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),

...found in the following verses [where the "blanks" are... fill them in with THIS specific phrase (not "age [singular]" which is distinct in meaning, from this)]:


--Galatians 1:5;
Philippians 4:20;
1 Timothy 1:17;
2 Timothy 4:18;
Hebrews 13:21
("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____");


--1 Peter 4:11;
1 Peter 5:11;
Revelation 1:6
("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____");


--Revelation 1:18;
Revelation 4:9;
Revelation 4:10;
Revelation 5:14;
Revelation 10:6;
Revelation 15:7
("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____");


--Revelation 5:13;
Revelation 7:12;
Revelation 11:15;
Revelation 22:5
("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___");



[which ones of the above look to be saying something like "long-but-limited-time-period"??]



--and used in the 3 verses usually "under question":

Revelation 14:11 [regarding those who receive the mark and worship the beast and his image]; and...

Revelation 19:3 [regarding the judgment of "the great whore"]; and...

Revelation 20:10 [regarding "the devil" and where "the beast and the false prophet" already are/will have been for the 1000 yrs]



[21x TOTAL]


[end quoting from old post; more at link]


____________

A thousand years earlier, the "beast" and the "false prophet" were said to be "cast alive" into the lake of fire... and after the 1000 years, Satan is cast into (as is "death" and "hell/hades" at that point)... and then the text states (of the beast, the false prophet, AND Satan) "and THEY SHALL BE TORMENTED unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (that's not "symbolic language" any more than the other 20x this phrase is used, in the passages listed out in the above post)




[ @WillB also ^ ]
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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Thats something I hadn't seen or thought about until now. "Death and Hell" might likely pertain to those who remain in it at that time. The first resurrection is already past at that point.

The last stage of the first resurrection...
Revelation 20:5
“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

The second resurrection...
Revelation 20:14
“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”

The very next verse verifies this.
Revelation 20:15
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
It is common to name the place after its founder even in our time. Because of the capital D and H we can discern that Death and Hell are names of spirits. One has the right to kill you because of sin (Death) the other has a right to keep you dead (Hell). Their authority has already been overcome by the Lord, so that all in Christ will not suffer their ministry: only the bodies of the saints pass away in death awaiting the promise of resurrection with a new spiritual body.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,779
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Did God purchase the freedom in Islam or Buddhism?
Perhaps you can find a a way to spin it like they did? You already have God becoming the demons and the evil people for ever and ever ("God will be all in all"). Getting Islam or Buddhism to claim something they don't shouldn't be that difficult.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,779
1,590
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But that's not what the text states, actually.

It says that "death" and "hell/hades" are cast into the lake of fire at the same time-slot that Satan is cast into the lake of fire (that is, at the GWTj time-slot), and of Satan (not to mention the "beast [individual-man aspect]" and the "false prophet") it is said, at this point, "and THEY SHALL BE TORMENTED unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" [not "until the end of this age [singular]" as you suggest is stated in this context], which underlined phrase I've posted about in past posts, and will place one (quoted in part) here for the readers' review:



Post #238 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677518



[quoting old post, in part]

My point is that ALL 21x TIMES THIS SPECIFIC PHRASE [in BLUE, below] IS USED, it always MEANS THE SAME THING:



[quoting from Post #196]


"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" -

(what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),

...found in the following verses [where the "blanks" are... fill them in with THIS specific phrase (not "age [singular]" which is distinct in meaning, from this)]:


--Galatians 1:5;
Philippians 4:20;
1 Timothy 1:17;
2 Timothy 4:18;
Hebrews 13:21
("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____");


--1 Peter 4:11;
1 Peter 5:11;
Revelation 1:6
("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____");


--Revelation 1:18;
Revelation 4:9;
Revelation 4:10;
Revelation 5:14;
Revelation 10:6;
Revelation 15:7
("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____");


--Revelation 5:13;
Revelation 7:12;
Revelation 11:15;
Revelation 22:5
("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___");



[which ones of the above look to be saying something like "long-but-limited-time-period"??]



--and used in the 3 verses usually "under question":

Revelation 14:11 [regarding those who receive the mark and worship the beast and his image]; and...

Revelation 19:3 [regarding the judgment of "the great whore"]; and...

Revelation 20:10 [regarding "the devil" and where "the beast and the false prophet" already are/will have been for the 1000 yrs]



[21x TOTAL]


[end quoting from old post; more at link]


____________

A thousand years earlier, the "beast" and the "false prophet" were said to be "cast alive" into the lake of fire... and after the 1000 years, Satan is cast into (as is "death" and "hell/hades" at that point)... and then the text states (of the beast, the false prophet, AND Satan) "and THEY SHALL BE TORMENTED unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (that's not "symbolic language" any more than the other 20x this phrase is used, in the passages listed out in the above post)




[ @WillB also ^ ]
Listen, all you have to do is repent of spreading a false narrative in order to get people to convert to Christianity. The Lord will forgive you. Hermeneutics won't save you but the Lord will.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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You already have God becoming the demons and the evil people for ever and ever ("God will be all in all").
Dude, I do not know what you have been reading. But I have never made such a comment or insinuation

You need to open your eyes and actually read to understand what others are saying