I am doing a message this weekend on Hell. the more I think about it the more disturbing it is -- everlasting torture? I am a Bible believing Christian. It just seems so harsh -- everlasting punishment for temporal crimes. What am I missing?
Hell
- Thread starter joshhuntnm
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A
abair
Guest
M
mule
Guest
There really are some who will not repent. Satan is obvious one as well as the angels he took with him.
It is like a criminal who while in prison acts as though they are remorseful for their evil deeds so the parole board gives him a second chance and as soon as he is free he goes and commits that same offense or worse. It is like a child molester, prison doesn't do anything to stop their urges. Well hell is permanet because
the offenders will only friegn repentance to be released then return to the evil ways.
God is JUST -- And gives everyone the opportunity to enter His Kingdom
It is like a criminal who while in prison acts as though they are remorseful for their evil deeds so the parole board gives him a second chance and as soon as he is free he goes and commits that same offense or worse. It is like a child molester, prison doesn't do anything to stop their urges. Well hell is permanet because
the offenders will only friegn repentance to be released then return to the evil ways.
God is JUST -- And gives everyone the opportunity to enter His Kingdom
A
abair
Guest
the pinishment is not to get repent it is for the sins
so the punishment should equal the sins
the ability to make sin is over and they will not come back to where they can do the same mistakes
M
mule
Guest
Hell is much more than a punishment. It separates evil from the Kingdom of God.
Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
For WITHTOUT are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoreongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
For WITHTOUT are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoreongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I wish this word "hell" would go away. It was used as a catch all for a few different words in scripture.
It has had new meaning assigned to it thereafter.
Old English "hell": v. to put seed potatoes into the ground. n. a potato cellar
The concept, and original accurate translation being simply from "grave", "state of death" (hades), and "garbage dump" (gehenna)
Exactly.
The heart is been tested. Now the question is, will you adhere to completely non-symbolic literal verses that say all will be reconciled, or mistranslations and misunderstandings of symbolism which say that "hell" means "eternal torment"
Eternity is an innate concept that needs little introduction to the human mind. Scripture presents the concept of eternity with phrases like "for all your generations".
Scripture presents the concept of "beyond comprehension" with words like "olam" and "aeon" which both originally meant "beyond comprehension" but were mistranslated with an aspect of time into words like "forever" and "eternity"
Read: Life beyond comprehension and punishment beyond comprehension.
Punishment corrects. And punishment beyond comprehension will correct beyond comprehension.As little children, we can listen to our Father now, or get the spanking of a lifetime.
As a result of this misunderstanding, the rest of scripture has been read and taught from a viewpoint of being subject to an overbearing tyrant instead of a righteous creator. This is what the serpent insinuated to Eve, by suggesting that God was hiding something from her, therefore imprisoning her eyesight. The tree was there to look at, things are hidden and revealed, but not to be touched or eaten from.
As you study this and it becomes revealed to you, if you go to tell others, they will not listen unless they have also had this struggle in their heart. Jacob's struggle. Jacob added his own twist on YHWH's instruction to return to Esau. He divided the camp so that half would be saved, but YHWH simply said "go back"
Now that you have struggled with the personal messenger of YHWH Himself, do not waiver. Now you can understand the Set Apart Spirit, the "comforter", and understand why He says to love your enemy.
OP, if you give your message this way to the average "church" audience, you will understand persecution for His name's sake. The best you can hope for if you want smiling faces from a crowd is to beat around the bush and give no clear answer, or continue to propagate the greatest blasphemy ever concocted.
The message is only for those who already question it.
The lake of fire refines gold by removing the dross. "Basanos" means "touchstone" not "torment"
Destruction and perish refer to the part of you that will be removed.
Wheat and tares. The field remains.
Grain and chaff, from the same stalk.
Two grinding, one is taken, one is left.
Two in one "bed" (one flesh), one is taken, one is left.
Be free and have now a reason to love, adore, and worship YHWH.
One's face reveals one's intent or purpose. Light is revelation.
"YHWH make His face to shine upon you."
And give you peace.
A
abair
Guest
what make the evil is the sin
and every sins can Measured by it effects and period so it should equal Specific time in hell
unless if the sin cant Measured but that out of human ability
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.
In the day that I return, I will revisit their sins upon them.
Not an eternal torment which has no purpose, nor can evil be obliterated if there is a pool of flaming blasphemers off to the side. Nor can people be forced into false happiness while their mom and dad burn in "hell" forever.
Ezekiel 14:4
M
mule
Guest
Every man is a sinner not ever sinner is evil but all who are evil are sinners.
Evil breaks the entire law all of it with malicious intent.
There once was a man who kidnapped a 15 year old girl, took her out in the desert and took an ax and cut her arms off from the elbows down then left her for dead. She survived, he went to prison and was eventually let out within the first week of being released he entered into a small girls room in the dead of night. They found the girls body several says later. She had been raped and murdered and this man was found to be the perpetrator. They put him back in prison without possibility of parole. ( he was murdered in prison that year)
This man is an example why hell ( lake of fire) is everlasting. Not just because one sins but because one has chosen evil and evil never repents. NEVER that is what make it EVIL
Evil breaks the entire law all of it with malicious intent.
There once was a man who kidnapped a 15 year old girl, took her out in the desert and took an ax and cut her arms off from the elbows down then left her for dead. She survived, he went to prison and was eventually let out within the first week of being released he entered into a small girls room in the dead of night. They found the girls body several says later. She had been raped and murdered and this man was found to be the perpetrator. They put him back in prison without possibility of parole. ( he was murdered in prison that year)
This man is an example why hell ( lake of fire) is everlasting. Not just because one sins but because one has chosen evil and evil never repents. NEVER that is what make it EVIL
A
abair
Guest
here does nt mean in the next life but it make me ask if the sins should have an equal Specific time at hell as punishment
to be fait the nature of the punishment should be equal to the sins nature and its effects
so be burend for every thing does not equal the nature for most of the sins
M
mule
Guest
It means now in this life, and afterward in the lake of fire. Because we put out more than can come back to us in this lifetime. It isn't about a period of time, but rather a degree of experience.
Example of the rapist mentioned above. In the lake of fire, he will experience the exact same physical and spiritual torment he inflicted upon each and every victim for himself, to full completion. This will be enough to make him abhor his actions forever afterward. Fixed.
Unless he repents and follows Christ.
It is a sufficient deterrent for sin. Because the error of thinking that it isn't will also be made clear in the lake of fire.
And when he sees YHWH for real, there will be no need for YHWH or any angel to cast him into the lake of fire, he will cast himself into it.
M
mule
Guest
Wolfnoxhide
He won't regret his deeds. He will just hate hell and his heart will be ever harder towards God. Evil loves what it does.
He won't regret his deeds. He will just hate hell and his heart will be ever harder towards God. Evil loves what it does.
Ask: will evil be forevermore non-existent or will it continue to exist?
If the person in the example - forever has a heart that is harder towards God, evil will not have been abolished, and sin against God will continue inside that person. Nothing useful will have been accomplished.
Do we love this enemy and want his salvation? Or do we want his eternal torment?
What does YHWH want? And is He incapable of executing a plan that renders His will?
A correction that is sufficient, can and will be executed against those who deserve it. However, there is no reason for this to be "eternal." In fact, the idea is useless and demands that God perform an evil unfair act.
The fact that the evil are sustained day by day, is evidence that the goal is correction of each and every one of them. Otherwise the "unworthy" could be simply destroyed right at this moment, still with no need for eternal torment.
The idea of a fair and righteous creator, who would never have created a soul with the foreknowledge of an eternal torment, is not only compatible with the bible, but actually causes it to be understood.
The unveiling of this blasphemous concept of eternal torment, is the unveiling of the abomination that causes desolation, the spirit of antichrist. It is standing in many temples. And you and I are each the temple. It is not our fault that we have been taught it. But we are accountable for embracing it.
Not to say that you or anyone in particular does so personally, because I only know for myself.
I can tell you this: changing the heart on this matter does not require one to condemn their self by admitting blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but it does identify it and stop us from knowingly committing it.
This revelation of Y'Shua is about to occur, and it will be called "another christ", and heresy, because there are other ideas connected to it that fly in the face of not only modern christianity, but other "religions" too.
It is a very difficult change of heart, considering how we have been deceived, immersed in confusion, babylon, for our entire lives.
There will be great tribulation and spiritual warfare on two matters, this one, the testimony of Y'Shua: "SALVATION!", and on the proper understanding and keeping of the 10 commandments (love one another), which define the sin we are to repent of.
If there is any "eternal torment" per se, it will be for the elect of Y'Shua, in that they can never again participate in the greatest battle that ever was. The battle for salvation.
Poetic justice at the eternal expense of those who make the necessary sacrifice of self, instead of at the expense of those who don't.
The hindsight of a battle and victory that will never be performed again, is the only "eternal torment." To those who won and those who know they didn't.
All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to YHWH;
and all the families of the nations shall worship before Him. --Psalm 22:27
Peace.
O
OFM
Guest
HELL IS HELL-ISH IT WOULD BE A LIVING HELL TOO BE IN HELL THE HELL WITH HELLISH HELL,GO TOO HEAVENLY HEAVEN IN HEAVEN AND HEAR ON EARTH TOO.
C
chesser
Guest
Of the 4 words translated hell in the kjv, only 2 are describing hell. Sheol and hades are death, the grave, the abode of the dead, etc. taratus is used once and means prison,place of gloom, sadness, etc., then Gehenna was a trash dump, where carcussus of criminals were thrown, which is referenced by both jesus(using the word) and isssaiah(see Isaiah 66:24) to describe the lake of fire. And joshhuntim, what you are missing is these verses:
Psalm 1:4-6
Psalm 2:11-12
Psalm 5:6
Psalm 9:3
Psalm 9:5
Psalm 9:6
Psalm 21:9
Psalm 34:16
Psalm 36:12
Psalm 37:1-2
Psalm 37:9
Psalm 37:20
Psalm 37:22
Psalm 37:23
Psalm 37:34
Psalm 37:38
Psalm 37:10
Psalm 49:12-14
Psalm 50:22
Psalm 54:5
Psalm 56:13
Psalm 73:16-19
Psalm 92:7
Isaiah 43:17
Isaiah 66:16
Ecclesiastes 9:5
Ezekiel 18:4
Ezekiel 18:20
Malachi 4:1-3
Matt 7:13
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 13:30
Luke 13:3
Luke 17:26-29
John 3:16
John 5:24
John 8:21
Romans 6:23
1 Corinthians 3:17
2 Cor 2:15-16
2 Cor 3:6
2 Cor 7:10
Galations 6:8
Philippians 3:19
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Hebrews 10:26-27,
Hebrews 10:39
James 1:15
James 4:12
2 Peter 2:1
2 Peter 3:7-9
1 John 5:12
Jude 5
Jude 10
Revelation 2:11
Revelation 17:8
Revelation 18:8
Revelation 20:14-15
Revelation 21:8
Isaiah 66:24
Psalm 1:4-6
Psalm 2:11-12
Psalm 5:6
Psalm 9:3
Psalm 9:5
Psalm 9:6
Psalm 21:9
Psalm 34:16
Psalm 36:12
Psalm 37:1-2
Psalm 37:9
Psalm 37:20
Psalm 37:22
Psalm 37:23
Psalm 37:34
Psalm 37:38
Psalm 37:10
Psalm 49:12-14
Psalm 50:22
Psalm 54:5
Psalm 56:13
Psalm 73:16-19
Psalm 92:7
Isaiah 43:17
Isaiah 66:16
Ecclesiastes 9:5
Ezekiel 18:4
Ezekiel 18:20
Malachi 4:1-3
Matt 7:13
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 13:30
Luke 13:3
Luke 17:26-29
John 3:16
John 5:24
John 8:21
Romans 6:23
1 Corinthians 3:17
2 Cor 2:15-16
2 Cor 3:6
2 Cor 7:10
Galations 6:8
Philippians 3:19
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Hebrews 10:26-27,
Hebrews 10:39
James 1:15
James 4:12
2 Peter 2:1
2 Peter 3:7-9
1 John 5:12
Jude 5
Jude 10
Revelation 2:11
Revelation 17:8
Revelation 18:8
Revelation 20:14-15
Revelation 21:8
Isaiah 66:24
In doing some more reading, I ran across another view. Some believe that the fire of hell is eternal but the sinner that is thrown in there is not. he suffers for a while--commensurate with his sins and then is burned up. I guess this is some where in between the annihilation view and the traditional view.
C
chesser
Guest
The fact is that the Bible does not teach the traditional view of final punishment. Scripture nowhere suggests that God is an eternal torturer. It never says the damned will writhe in ceaseless torment or that the glories of heaven will forever be blighted by the screams from hell. The idea of conscious everlasting torment was a grievous mistake, a horrible error, a gross slander against the heavenly Father, whose character we truly see in the life of Jesus of Nazareth.
Scripture teaches instead that those who go to hell will experience “everlasting destruction” in “the second death,” for God is able to “destroy both body and soul in hell.” The actual process of destruction may well involve conscious pain that differs in magnitude in each individual case—Scripture seems to indicate that it will. Whatever the case, God’s judgment will be measured by perfect, holy, divine justice. Even hell will demonstrate the absolute righteousness of God. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible repeatedly warns that the wicked will “die,” “perish” or “be destroyed.” Those who die this second death will never live again.
A growing host of respected biblical scholars now publicly question the traditional notion that God will keep the lost alive forever so he can punish them without end. These include such luminaries as F. F. Bruce, Michael Green, Philip E. Hughes, Dale Moody, Clark H. Pinnock, W. Graham Scroggie, John R. W. Stott and John W. Wenham. These men represent evangelical Christian scholarship at its best. They recognize that Scripture must judge all traditions and creeds, not the other way around. They realize that most of the church was wrong for centuries on doctrines far more fundamental than the doctrine of hell, and they understand that it would be presumptuous to suppose that the majority might not have erred on this point just as it did on others.
J. I. Packer rightly notes that “we are forbidden to become enslaved to human tradition, . . . even ‘evangelical’ tradition. We may never assume the complete rightness of our own established ways of thought and practice and excuse ourselves the duty of testing and reforming them by Scripture.”4 John Stott reminds us that “the hallmark of an authentic evangelicalism is not the uncritical repetition of old traditions but the willingness to submit every tradition, however ancient, to fresh biblical scrutiny and, if necessary, reform.”5 The growing evangelical rejection of the traditional doctrine of unending conscious torment is not propelled by emotionalism, sentimentality or compromise with culture but by absolute commitment to the authority of Scripture and by the conviction that a faithful church must be a church that is always reforming.
Two Views of Hell: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue (Spectrum) by Robert A. Peterson, Edward W. Fudge
Scripture teaches instead that those who go to hell will experience “everlasting destruction” in “the second death,” for God is able to “destroy both body and soul in hell.” The actual process of destruction may well involve conscious pain that differs in magnitude in each individual case—Scripture seems to indicate that it will. Whatever the case, God’s judgment will be measured by perfect, holy, divine justice. Even hell will demonstrate the absolute righteousness of God. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible repeatedly warns that the wicked will “die,” “perish” or “be destroyed.” Those who die this second death will never live again.
A growing host of respected biblical scholars now publicly question the traditional notion that God will keep the lost alive forever so he can punish them without end. These include such luminaries as F. F. Bruce, Michael Green, Philip E. Hughes, Dale Moody, Clark H. Pinnock, W. Graham Scroggie, John R. W. Stott and John W. Wenham. These men represent evangelical Christian scholarship at its best. They recognize that Scripture must judge all traditions and creeds, not the other way around. They realize that most of the church was wrong for centuries on doctrines far more fundamental than the doctrine of hell, and they understand that it would be presumptuous to suppose that the majority might not have erred on this point just as it did on others.
J. I. Packer rightly notes that “we are forbidden to become enslaved to human tradition, . . . even ‘evangelical’ tradition. We may never assume the complete rightness of our own established ways of thought and practice and excuse ourselves the duty of testing and reforming them by Scripture.”4 John Stott reminds us that “the hallmark of an authentic evangelicalism is not the uncritical repetition of old traditions but the willingness to submit every tradition, however ancient, to fresh biblical scrutiny and, if necessary, reform.”5 The growing evangelical rejection of the traditional doctrine of unending conscious torment is not propelled by emotionalism, sentimentality or compromise with culture but by absolute commitment to the authority of Scripture and by the conviction that a faithful church must be a church that is always reforming.
Two Views of Hell: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue (Spectrum) by Robert A. Peterson, Edward W. Fudge
The Lord disciplines us when we sin—that, I believe, is hell. Or put another way, there are natural consequences to our sin, and those consequences are painful. For instance, if I rob a bank, I will probably spend a lot of time in prison.
The good news is that these consequences don’t last forever. At some point you are forgiven.