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Daley
Guest
Luke 16;19-31 speaks of hell as a very real place of torment. I have never met anyone who could successfully show otherwise from the Scriptures. What are your views?
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tucksma
Guest
I do not believe in hell as you do, and one thing to remember is this is a parable, and cannot be taken literally. If this was the only section on hell, then I would agree with you it is forever torment, but when looking at the whole of scripture you find that this can't be a literal thing of hell rather a story using symbolism.
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OwenHeidenreich
Guest
I still run into issues with hell, like the biblical fact that spiritual beings dont have physical bodies so ... how can spiritual things feel physical pain? not sure.
...........why must SPIRITUAL beings feel PHYSICAL pain to FEEL pain?............Do you not thing spiritual beings can feel spiritual pain? Does God not grieve over the lost?
Jesus spoke/taught in parables to impart eternal truths..........so why are they not to be believed?
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CRC
Guest
Without accurate knowledge, we may become ensnared by false teachings promoted by God’s opposer, Satan the Devil, who is “a liar and the father of the lie.” (John 8:44) Therefore, if a doctrine contradicts God’s Word, if it is a lie, then believing it and teaching it discredits God and brings us into opposition to him. So we need to examine the Scriptures carefully to distinguish truth from falsehood. (Acts 17:11) We do not want to be like those who are “always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.”—2 Timothy 3:1, 7.
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Daley
Guest
1) Let's allow the Bible to speak for itself, ok? The Bible is explicitly clear about when Jesus was speaking in parables. Over and over many times in Matthew 13 alone it is careful to tell us when he was giving a parable, but it doesn't do so in Luke 16. If you choose to believe the rich man and Lazarus was a parable, you do so, not because Luke 16 says so, but for your own theological reasons. Jesus said "There was a certain rich man," (Luke 16:19) so I have to believe the man existed or Jesus was wrong. He was no more speaking in parables in verse 19 then he was just one verse earlier in verse 18. Surely you don't think what Jesus said here about adultery was a parable, do you?
2) Names are never mentioned in the parables of Jesus. This is one consistent characteristic of his parables. Rather it be the ten virgins, the sower, the mustard see, the Good Samaritan, or any of the others, no names are mentioned in such parables. If a character is fictitious, its not necessary to give him a name, is it? But in Luke 16 names are mentioned: Abraham and Lazarus, real people. Abraham for sure, the Jews knew.
3) Jesus parables are true to life, meaning, they are based on reality, on things that actually happen. Jesus used things his disciples were familiar with to coin his parables. So he spoke about the shepherd who leaves 99 sheep to look for the lost one because there were shepherds in Israel who knew about this; he spoke about a Good Samaritan because Samaritans were real, and some did have faith like the woman at the well in John 4; he spoke about fishing because many of his disciples were fishermen. All his parables about marriage feasts, leaven fermenting flour and so forth were based on everyday things in Jewish custom. So even if the rich man and Lazarus were a parable, it still was based on something real. Take for example the Good Samaritan:
There really was a road from Jerusalem to Jericho, and that that road really was frequented by robbers. It is a historical fact, you can check this out, that the Romans built a garrison on that road to protect travelers from bandits. Jews were real, so were Samaritans, even the currency, the dinarius was real. So Jesus was no myth maker. He didn't preach fables like Alice in Wonderland. He spoke about real people and places and things. So even if Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, it is still based on something real, therefore, hell is a real place, the fire is real, and these were two real people.
The Greek word for parable is paraboli, and this ame word is translated as "allegory" (KJV) in Galatians 4:24. In this passage (Galatians 4:22-31) we are told that the relationship between Abraham, his two wives, and their sons, as well as the sending away of the one who was slave, was a paraboli, a parable; but no Christian would dare argue that the events mentioned here didn't happen. The Book of Genesis records that Ishmael did persecute Isaac, and Sarah did have her husband send Hagar and her son Ishmael away, and it does record that these were all real people. So parables were based on real life events that used to happen.
4) If hellfire isn't real, then its a false, pagan doctrine. In that case, we are to reach the ridiculous conclusion that Jesus borrowed a false doctrine and used this false doctrine to teach his disciples. Could you imagine Jesus coining an illustration in the Bible that involved mythical gods like Osiris, Anubis, Thor, or Posidon? Could you imagine Jesus putting a false doctrine in the mouth of Abraham, to make him preach about an afterlife and a place of torment that didn't exist? Why would the Son of God have to go to such lengths just to get over a moral point to his disciples?
5) Surely if this were a parable, Jesus would have explained it, or at least the disciples would have asked for an explanation as it was unlike any other parable they had heard before. The parable of the sower is explained by Jesus himself in the Bible, why would he leave us to guess and make assumptions about the meaning of this passage if it was all symbolic?
I can think of other reasons why this is literal, but why do you think it CANNOT be taken literally? Why?
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Daley
Guest
Just because you don't know HOW something is possible doesn't make it impossible. I don't know how God can hear millions o prayers at the same time and understand them all, but he does. I don't understand how a spider's web survives such horrible down pours of rain between mere shaky blades of grass, but they do. If the Word of God says that God made a place where amazing things are possible, including the sensation of pain for spirit beings, then that is possible for God. If artificial intelligence existed, may it would feel pain when a virus is killing it, who knows? Revelation 20:10 describes what the devil, wild beast and false prophet will feel as "torment."
Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry has some input on the topic of "hell."
Hell | Doctrine of Hell as taught in the Bible. | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Also see... What are the verses that mention hell in the New Testament? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Disclaimer: CARM is a good FREE starter resource for--beyond the Bible-- study.
I am not affiliated with CARM, but I am grateful for the ministry's efforts.
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Daley
Guest
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Letheros
Guest
Hell is a real thing, so is heaven. Many choose not to believe in it because they cannot rationalize a loving God with the existance of such a place as hell. Its easier to believe it doesnt.
THe idea that hell is not real prevails in the Universalist viewpoint that everyone goes to heaven. This idea grows fast becuase it takes all responsiblity away from everyone which makes it easier becuase then people dont need to change.
As to the teaching in parables, the Bible explicetly states when a parable is being used.
THe idea that hell is not real prevails in the Universalist viewpoint that everyone goes to heaven. This idea grows fast becuase it takes all responsiblity away from everyone which makes it easier becuase then people dont need to change.
As to the teaching in parables, the Bible explicetly states when a parable is being used.
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tucksma
Guest
1. Whenever vague wording of characters is used, it is logical to think it is a parable because the character isn't a real person, rather a description or characteristic that many people share. Like 'a certain rich men'
2.Abraham would be mentioned in a parable, because EVERYONE knew him. Lazarus is interesting I will give you that.
3.You stated something interesting. That jesus used things that his disciples were familiar with. People were familiar with an underworld concept (Greek Hades). So it actually makes sense here that it could be a parable. If we look at the teaching of the parable its saying things like the rich on earth won't be saved (not saying every rich person is done for, you get the point I hope), and that there is drastic difference between salvation and not salvation.
4. The point of the bible and Jesus wasn't to preach damnation rather salvation. He used a common belief to show how condemnation is NOT GOOD.
5.There are so many places where symbolism is unexplained its crazy. This reason doesn't fit at all.
My main reason for thinking this is not literal though is because of the REST of scripture. If you do a word study on the greek/hebrew words that make up hell, you find that it is simply the grave.
More on there are many verses saying things such as...
"The soul that sins, it shall die"
"The dead know nothing"
And many others.
In general the concept of hell being eternal torment has Greek myth roots.
Sheol by no means is hell. Just look at the story of Joseph in Genesis. Jacob goes down to the pit to cry for his ALIVE son. He went to sheol. If Sheol is hell that makes NO sense.
Hades is sheol. Jesus quotes the Old Testament and replaces Sheol with Hades.
Gahenna is a place on earth.
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tucksma
Guest
As I said, if this was the only mention of hell, I'd agree with you. My reasons for looking at this as I do is because the rest of scripture does not support eternal torment.
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tucksma
Guest
Actually no. I don't think everyone goes to heaven at all. I believe anyone who, in your opinion goes to hell, goes to the grave and never wakes up. Again do a word study on hell and you see that the concept of eternal torment is not true at all.
Jesus Christ was speaking to his disciples in the present of the Pharisees and scribes prior to the account at Luke 16:19-31. The Pharisees sneered with contempt at Jesus because they reckoned that they, as the religious rulers, were the only ones entitled to the bosom position of Abraham. In their eyes, the common people did not come into the picture at all. Those rulers said to Jesus in an earlier encounter with him: “We are Abraham’s offspring,” and again: “Our father is Abraham,” and yet again: “We have one Father, God.”-John 8:33, 39, 41.
From this it is evident that the Pharisees considered that Abraham represented God. In this they were right. However, they were wrong in claiming sonship with either Abraham or God. In God’s eyes this relationship is determined, not by fleshly descent, but by one’s disposition and works. As Jesus said to them on that same occasion: “If you are Abraham’s children, do the works of Abraham,” and Jesus also said: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began.” (John 8:39, 44) This preaching by Jesus that exposed the hypocrisy, greed and false teaching of the Jewish clergy caused a change to take place in their lives.-Matthew 15:1-9; 23.
Also, Jesus often taught a lesson by telling a story through the means of parables or illustrations. In this illustration, the rich man well pictures the Jewish clergy who were well provided for with spiritual provisions; who considered themselves children of the kingdom, clothed in purple; who were very self-righteous, wearing fine linen; and who were proud of being Abraham’s offspring. (Matthew 23:27, 28; Romans 3:1, 2; Revelation 19:8) The beggar Lazarus, whose name means “God is helper,” well pictures the Jewish common people, who were despised by the clergy, who because of neglect were spiritually sick and were hungering and thirsting for righteousness, and who appreciated their need of the Great Physician, Christ Jesus.-John 7:49; Matthew 5:6; Mark 2:17.
The death of the rich man and of Lazarus pictured a change taking place in the relative positions of these two classes. This should be no surprise to us because the Bible shows that death can be used symbolically, representing people as dying or having died though still alive, meaning thereby that a a great change in one’s life or course of action. Compare Romans 6:2, 11-13; 7:4-6; Colossians 3:3; 1 Timothy 5:6. A death, or change from former conditions, happened when Jesus fed the Lazarus class spiritually, and they thus came into the favor of the greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the false religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ’s followers after Pentecost forcefully exposed their evil works. (Acts 7:51-57) So this illustration is not literal and does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.
Furthermore, it is not reasonable or Scriptural to believe that a man suffers torment simply because he is rich, wears good clothing and has plenty to eat. It is not Scriptural to believe that one is blessed with heavenly life just because he is a beggar. Jesus said nothing about the rich man’s living a degraded life worthy of “fiery” punishment; the man’s failing was that he did not feed the poor. Further, Jesus said nothing about Lazarus’ doing good things, things that clearly would merit his going to heaven, which is what some churches claim is the meaning of his being taken to Abraham’s bosom. Furthermore, Abraham, like David, was dead and in his grave, so angels literally could not carry Lazarus to his bosom. (Acts 2:29, 34) None of God’s servants had a heavenly reward held out to them before the coming of Christ Jesus; that is why his apostles-even after his resurrection-were looking to an earthly kingdom. (Psalms 45:16; Acts 1:6-8) Besides, Abraham could not have been in heaven in view of Jesus’ words: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man”?(John 3:13) And if the rich man were in a literal fire, surely Lazarus could not benefit him with just a drop of water. This request was for the purpose to get the “Lazarus” class away from a favored position. All of these are figures of speech.
From this it is evident that the Pharisees considered that Abraham represented God. In this they were right. However, they were wrong in claiming sonship with either Abraham or God. In God’s eyes this relationship is determined, not by fleshly descent, but by one’s disposition and works. As Jesus said to them on that same occasion: “If you are Abraham’s children, do the works of Abraham,” and Jesus also said: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began.” (John 8:39, 44) This preaching by Jesus that exposed the hypocrisy, greed and false teaching of the Jewish clergy caused a change to take place in their lives.-Matthew 15:1-9; 23.
Also, Jesus often taught a lesson by telling a story through the means of parables or illustrations. In this illustration, the rich man well pictures the Jewish clergy who were well provided for with spiritual provisions; who considered themselves children of the kingdom, clothed in purple; who were very self-righteous, wearing fine linen; and who were proud of being Abraham’s offspring. (Matthew 23:27, 28; Romans 3:1, 2; Revelation 19:8) The beggar Lazarus, whose name means “God is helper,” well pictures the Jewish common people, who were despised by the clergy, who because of neglect were spiritually sick and were hungering and thirsting for righteousness, and who appreciated their need of the Great Physician, Christ Jesus.-John 7:49; Matthew 5:6; Mark 2:17.
The death of the rich man and of Lazarus pictured a change taking place in the relative positions of these two classes. This should be no surprise to us because the Bible shows that death can be used symbolically, representing people as dying or having died though still alive, meaning thereby that a a great change in one’s life or course of action. Compare Romans 6:2, 11-13; 7:4-6; Colossians 3:3; 1 Timothy 5:6. A death, or change from former conditions, happened when Jesus fed the Lazarus class spiritually, and they thus came into the favor of the greater Abraham, Jehovah God. At the same time, the false religious leaders “died” with respect to having God’s favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ’s followers after Pentecost forcefully exposed their evil works. (Acts 7:51-57) So this illustration is not literal and does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell.
Furthermore, it is not reasonable or Scriptural to believe that a man suffers torment simply because he is rich, wears good clothing and has plenty to eat. It is not Scriptural to believe that one is blessed with heavenly life just because he is a beggar. Jesus said nothing about the rich man’s living a degraded life worthy of “fiery” punishment; the man’s failing was that he did not feed the poor. Further, Jesus said nothing about Lazarus’ doing good things, things that clearly would merit his going to heaven, which is what some churches claim is the meaning of his being taken to Abraham’s bosom. Furthermore, Abraham, like David, was dead and in his grave, so angels literally could not carry Lazarus to his bosom. (Acts 2:29, 34) None of God’s servants had a heavenly reward held out to them before the coming of Christ Jesus; that is why his apostles-even after his resurrection-were looking to an earthly kingdom. (Psalms 45:16; Acts 1:6-8) Besides, Abraham could not have been in heaven in view of Jesus’ words: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man”?(John 3:13) And if the rich man were in a literal fire, surely Lazarus could not benefit him with just a drop of water. This request was for the purpose to get the “Lazarus” class away from a favored position. All of these are figures of speech.