Here are the differences between the last two prophetic comings of Christ (the Rapture vs Second Coming)
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H
Howdy
Guest
Sometimes what I say may be misunderstood so I tried to make it clear.
Gave me a chance to state my belief.
H
Howdy
Guest
I see I got a thumbs down but no one seems to want to address what Revelation 20 states.
“There are two resurrections. The first will be of all whose name is in the book of life at the coming of Jesus.”
he promised a resurrection to Israel’s faithful in thier testament when the messiah came
“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
Ezekiel 37:12
He came to fulfill that promise to them
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
John 11:25-26 KJV
And he did
“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
In other words
“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”( past tense )
1 Corinthians 15:20 KJV
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ , the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”
1 Corinthians 15:22-23 KJV
These are the first fruits who were raised with Christ
“These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
Revelation 14:4 KJV
everyone else will be raised up at the end when he comes back from heaven with salvation
“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; ( that already happened )
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”( that will happen at the end of the world )
Hebrews 9:28 KJV
Matthew 24 maps it all out. Rapture, end time great trib and all that. The Disciples came to Jesus privately and asked Him 3 questions.
Matthew 24:3
3 Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?[a]”.../KJV
when will it happen?
what sign signals your return?
and of the end of the world?
Of course the end of the world is post trib. But a lot of other happens first. Jesus already told them what happens to the temple in 70 AD. And he starts going into detail:
Matthew 24:4-8
4 Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you,
5 for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many.
6 And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately.
7 Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world.
8 But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come..../KJV
Jesus starts giving the details with a warning, don't be deceived! Interesting. Wars and threats of wars? Earthquakes? Volcanos? Tsunamis? That reads like today's news. So we're close.
Matthew 24:
14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations[c] will hear it; and then the end will come..../KJV
with Wifi and the internet, this is happening fast...
Matthew 24:
15 “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration[d] standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention!)
16 “Then those in Judea must flee to the hills.
17 A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack..../NLT
That's the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet in Daniel 9. This event mark 1/2 way through the 7 year Tribulation as we see in Daniel 9. Then He goes on talking about what will happen in Israel. So far he hasn't mentioned the rapture. But the important thing to Remember about Matthew 24 is that Jesus doesn't talk in chronological order. He answers all 3 questions and then, changes the subject and adds more about the rapture. He talks about Israel all the way up verse 32 where he has finished answering all 3 questions and then says...
Matthew 24:32
32 “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near.
33 In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door.
34 I tell you the truth, this generation[j] will not pass from the scene until all these things take place.../
When the fig tree (Israel) sprouts leaves (1948!) know that the end is near. Very near (like, now). we are the last generation.
Matthew 24:
36 “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself.[k] Only the Father knows.
37 “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day.
38 In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat.
39 People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes..../NLT
No one knows the day or the hour when Jesus (comes for His Bride), so it's not talking about post trib because he gave us all the "Signs" of that coming. So He's talking about the rapture which could happen when you least expect it and without signs or warnings.
We can set our watches for the 2nd coming after the tribulation. A 7year peace treaty with Israel starts the 7 year trib. Then in 1260 days, then the Anti-christ betrays the treaty and sets up the abomination of desolation in the temple and declares himself God. Then 1260 days later, Jesus 2nd coming to put down evil and set up His Millennial Kingdom. But Jesus does not allow His Bride to suffer God's wrath. (want the scriptures for that?) Jesus goes on to describe the rapture, one will be taken, one is left behind. Then in verse 44 he speaks it plainly,
Matthew 24:44
44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected..../NLT
The rapture is, Imminent. No signs are needed, no warnings of any kind, so it is imminent could be any moment. At that point, post tribbers have created contradiction within scripture for themselves. See what I mean?
I just looked out side and the rapture prolly wont be today, we have no clouds today, lol. Maybe tomorrow Lord!
Matthew 24:3
3 Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?[a]”.../KJV
when will it happen?
what sign signals your return?
and of the end of the world?
Of course the end of the world is post trib. But a lot of other happens first. Jesus already told them what happens to the temple in 70 AD. And he starts going into detail:
Matthew 24:4-8
4 Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you,
5 for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many.
6 And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately.
7 Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world.
8 But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come..../KJV
Jesus starts giving the details with a warning, don't be deceived! Interesting. Wars and threats of wars? Earthquakes? Volcanos? Tsunamis? That reads like today's news. So we're close.
Matthew 24:
14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations[c] will hear it; and then the end will come..../KJV
with Wifi and the internet, this is happening fast...
Matthew 24:
15 “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration[d] standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention!)
16 “Then those in Judea must flee to the hills.
17 A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack..../NLT
That's the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet in Daniel 9. This event mark 1/2 way through the 7 year Tribulation as we see in Daniel 9. Then He goes on talking about what will happen in Israel. So far he hasn't mentioned the rapture. But the important thing to Remember about Matthew 24 is that Jesus doesn't talk in chronological order. He answers all 3 questions and then, changes the subject and adds more about the rapture. He talks about Israel all the way up verse 32 where he has finished answering all 3 questions and then says...
Matthew 24:32
32 “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near.
33 In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door.
34 I tell you the truth, this generation[j] will not pass from the scene until all these things take place.../
When the fig tree (Israel) sprouts leaves (1948!) know that the end is near. Very near (like, now). we are the last generation.
Matthew 24:
36 “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself.[k] Only the Father knows.
37 “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day.
38 In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat.
39 People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes..../NLT
No one knows the day or the hour when Jesus (comes for His Bride), so it's not talking about post trib because he gave us all the "Signs" of that coming. So He's talking about the rapture which could happen when you least expect it and without signs or warnings.
We can set our watches for the 2nd coming after the tribulation. A 7year peace treaty with Israel starts the 7 year trib. Then in 1260 days, then the Anti-christ betrays the treaty and sets up the abomination of desolation in the temple and declares himself God. Then 1260 days later, Jesus 2nd coming to put down evil and set up His Millennial Kingdom. But Jesus does not allow His Bride to suffer God's wrath. (want the scriptures for that?) Jesus goes on to describe the rapture, one will be taken, one is left behind. Then in verse 44 he speaks it plainly,
Matthew 24:44
44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected..../NLT
The rapture is, Imminent. No signs are needed, no warnings of any kind, so it is imminent could be any moment. At that point, post tribbers have created contradiction within scripture for themselves. See what I mean?
I just looked out side and the rapture prolly wont be today, we have no clouds today, lol. Maybe tomorrow Lord!
Nope. The word Trinity is not in scripture, but you know there's 3 of them, right?
So these people that were resurrected with Jesus were part of the first resurrection. When did these people get martyred by the beast? When did they rule and reign a thousand years?
H
Howdy
Guest
How do you mesh this belief with Revelation 20.
Those in the first resurrection includes those who are beheaded, do not take the mark, nor worship the best or his image.
To say there is a resurrection before Jesus comes is to say these verses are not true.
These verses are talking about those who are resurrected in a new body while all who were resurrected in the past were resurrected in the flesh.
No it's not. You just aren't allowing for the resurrection of the saints and the taking of the church for His Bride. There's more than 2 resurrections, already has been. Like in
Matthew 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many..../KJV
This already happened when Jesus resurrected. You would do well to study more Brother. If the rapture doesn't happen until after the great trib., then how do you reconcile that no one knows the day or time? (Already posted that). A doctrine must agree with all of scriptures and must not create contradictions.
H
Howdy
Guest
No, not by a long shot. BTW, the separating was not the Gentiles but the Church from religious Jews. That was the schism. Later, the Church itself began to separate from other churches. And, here we are today with who knows how many different churches there are.
The Church is resurrection before the Trib. What you describe above is what happens at the end of the Trib and the Millennium. The Church in heaven is being judged at the Rewards Ceremony (what some call it the Judgment Seat of Christ). Hence, the book of Revelation states of the Bride in heaven, has made herself ready to return with Christ. The Church in heaven during the Trib is known as the Pre-Trib doctrine.
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There was about 3000 jews saved on the first day of Pentecost when Peter spoke
Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Yes, on Pentecost they were mostly Jews getting saved. If that is what you meant, then I misspoke. I was looking basically at the first century. I should have qualified my response.
I think part of your problem understanding scripture is how you read it. Man is spirit/soul/body. The word of God is either the Logos which is the written word, and Rhema's which is the spoken word of God.
It sounds to me like when you read the word, you read it with your intellect, which is a function of your soul. Stay with me on this. When you sit down to read the word before you read it prepare your heart to receive the word of God. Then I turn inwardly and by an inner ct of my will and an open heart to receive, I consciously allow my spirit man to read it instead of my soul man. Be open to the Holy Spirit. Then read it and read it prayerfully and you can ask the Holy Spirit questions, What's that mean, Holy Spirit?
If you don't read it from your spirit and being open to receive revelation and understanding from the Hp;y Spirit, then you are reading the text carnally, and the carnal soul can not receive the things of the spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14) nor understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Paul spoke about this also in
2nd Corinthians 3:6
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life..../KJV
So you can't read it from your carnal man, you must read it from the spirit and be open to the Holy Spirit. Or you will miss a lot and wind up not understanding much of it.
John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth..../KJV
Studying His word is worship. If you open yourself to the Holy Spirit, He will lead you into all truth
John 16:13-14
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.../KJV
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you..../KJV
It doesn't say some truth! That says all truth. So I suggest you practicing sharpening your sensitivity to the awareness of the presence of the Holy Spirit within you.
When you read scripture like that you start seeing the truth. But you also must set aside your presuppositions of what you thought you knew in order to be able to receive (all truth) from the Holy Spirit.
Exactly.
Investigation is not in the postrib rapture workbook.
The pretrib verses are invisible....forbidden.
Exactly.
For example, the virgins parable only fits the pretrib rapture.
Rev 14 only fits the pretrib rapture.
I have studied tge postrib position.
I know their doctrine well.
When a postribber tries to tell me my doctrine, it is comical how much error they convey in reciting what my belief is.
That is huge.
I can relate to their doctrine, and know every impossibility of their position.
They CAN NOT do the same with me.
So their STARTING PLACE IS all muddied up.
They will not unpack the op.
It is not in any way an interest to them.
The starting place is the OT. The God who tells the end from the beginning. In Daniel 9 70 years is put on Israel for not knowing the day of His visitation on earth. Daniel is the most authenticated book of the bible. Digging through it reveals that 70 years (weeks of years) if you do the math (30 day prophetical years!) it worked out to the exact day that Jesus made His triumphant entry into Jerusalem. Because they had the data they got the date wrong so the Lord put 70 weeks of years on them.
Matthew 24 says, (talking about the pre trib rapture) that, it will be like in Noahs day. It was business as usual all the way up until the flood then they were swept away but 8 wer "raptured" and saved. This is a type & shadow of the rapture. Hardly anyone believes it. I want to get married or start a business...until, boom, the rapture happens. And because the lukewarm were not watching for His return they get left behind and will have to endure the great trib.
It's a scary thought. He might be coming to only pick up a dozen people worldwide!
H
Howdy
Guest
You presume a lot about some one you do not know.
You have no idea how I study,
I do not read the word as most do, I study the word and allow it to teach me, to change my mind when I am wrong.
Now answer the question that all have avoided.