Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

[frederickdoc]

prophecy in Isaiah 7:15:

"He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good."

• Curds and Honey: In ancient Israel, curds (sour milk) and honey were symbols of raw divine abundance and purity.
• The Spiritual Meaning: To survive entirely on curds and honey means consuming only that which is pure, untainted, and comes directly from God. This clean intake naturally trains the mind to instantly spot and reject what is toxic (evil) and select what is life-giving (good).

The New Testament Upgrade (Hebrews 5:13-14)
The New Testament picks up this exact diet metaphor and explains how it physically works in your mind. Hebrews 5:14 states:

Note

"But solid food is for the mature, Who because of practice have their Senses trained to discern Good and Evil."

The author of Hebrews uses physical eating to explain spiritual discernment:

• The "Milk" Diet: Spiritual infants live only on milk—meaning they only look for comfort, basic blessings, and easy concepts. Because they don't chew on deeper truths, they are easily tricked by evil disguised as good.
• The "Solid Food" Diet: Solid food is the deep, unfiltered Word of God. It Requires you to Struggle, Think, Chew, and apply Tough Truths to your Life. Seems many never got the curds and honey and figured use big Words to Look super spiritual like they got it going on .yet The a mind of a child out Does all their Man Wisdome .
• that is Not even From The Lord and they want others to join their little clicks .
• last I remember it, blind let lead blind all should know that end.

 

[GWH]

Yes, Isa. 7:15&22 say that Immanuel will eat curds and honey when he becomes a boy old enough to choose right and reject wrong, but in Matt. 4:4 Jesus told the tempter that man needs both bread and God's Word to live. New Christians should strive for moral maturity.

 

[frederickdoc]

Grow with the word of the Holy Spirit .

 

[EmethAlethia]

The Bible is not the 4th member of the trinity.

We don't have to like that God says Jesus and the bible are synonyms. It's His wording. I'm happy with that. Do I understand it? To some extent. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." There is no salvation apart from hearing the word of God. There is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. These are linked in every way there is no salvation apart from either of them. Is the written word a separate entity from Christ? God's word links them throughout the scriptures. There is no salvation apart from either of them. If you believe differently, please post the reasons for your disagreement.

 

[dkontner]

Psalm 12
King James Version
6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

This passage refers to the word, which was made flesh, as a person. There is no separating them, Jesus saves and the Word saves.

Hebrews 4
King James Version
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

2 Timothy 3
King James Version
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Thanks for the feedback re point #6: 6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6, Rom. 1:18&25, 2Thes. 2:10-13), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:13, Heb. 7:11-10:1) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Repenting of sin and seeking salvation (Matt. 4:17, 7:7) begins with love of Truth, which is the Way to the Door of eternal life, who is the Lord Jesus (2Thes. 2:10, John 14:6, 1:1-18).


I inferred disagreement because of apparent apathy about the point.

Nope. Never apathetic about scripture. Sometimes when we condense things people miss where we are going, and why. Therefore, including just a bit more explanation clarifies why and how we got where we are.

Matt. 26:13 is cited as an example of Jesus referring to the gospel being preached to the world.

And here I thought your focus was on what the woman had done. Good clarification ... but I missed it in the original.

Rom. 1:18&25 is cited because of perceiving it to be parallel with 2Thes. 2:10-13, the verse prompting the insight.

Ok. I see what you were doing now. They do appear to be parallels.

John 19:13 was a typo. I meant to type John 19:30. Good catch!

Heb. 7:11-10:1 could be extended to 10:10.

The Hebrews passage is all of one topic. So yes, to 10:10 it is.

Re "and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation":
This indicates that the ultimate destination of the path trod by truth lovers who lack the benefit of NT revelation
will be the same as those who have that benefit of knowing the NT. I will consider whether John 4:23-24 applies.

Joh. 4:23-24 states there is a specific group the Father will never stop seeking until He gets them (Present tense). We know those who respond incorrectly, "for this reason" get hardened into faith in lies 2Th. 2:11 which is the exact opposite of "Faith in the truth" vs. 13. We also know these are "perishing", will not be saved (Unlike those in vs. 13) and those "perishing" can never see, let alone believe, the true gospel. 2Co. 4:3-4 These are no longer "sought" by God because they cannot even get to the truth anymore unless the first "choice" changes, and thus the ongoing "Fruits" change.

I do not find Mat. 7:6 and Mat. 7:7-12 to be problematic at all. As a matter of fact, those who fall short on Mat. 7:6, who true Christians are commanded to stop sharing with, have to disobey Jesus' command in Mat. 7:1-5 to get to their poor responses in Mat. 7:6. Mat. 7:7-12 and Luk. 11:9-13 have the exact same "Present Tense" wording meaning only those who are continuously knocking, seeking, asking, and never ever stop the process will receive "what is good" / "The Holy Spirit".

Those who stop, seeking, knocking, asking, proving all things over and over again, holding fast to what is proven good/true do so because their core beliefs are "Unquestionable fact" 2Th. 2:11, making everything "else", just as "unquestionably", lies. These have stopped this process and will not see the end result, i.e. receiving the Holy Spirit.

The gate "leading to life" Mat. 7:14 is "Saving faith in the truth", and that this makes all other "faiths" the gate leading to destruction, then we can figure out the (2) different "paths" The path leading to destruction is that which allows everyone in the 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 different "Christian" belief groups to hold on to their beliefs till the day they die, with their beliefs fully intact.

The "path" leading to the gate opening to life, is whatever beliefs, viewpoints, ... that allows anyone to figure out what beliefs are erroneous, and what beliefs are truth if they never ever stop the process.

The "Fruits" of these 2 different groups are completely different and never ever overlap. Those with all the different beliefs in this world, who hold fast to their beliefs "as" truth, and those continuously seeking out where their beliefs are wrong, and who habitually alter any/all of them to fit what is being proven good/true are one group. The other group, which includes absolutely every other belief set on the planet, has proven their beliefs true and is holding fast to them.

If you explain to those with "unquestionably true" core beliefs (Or at least they consider them true enough that they are no longer in the process of obeying 1Th. 5:21), that they have the "Fruits" of those Jesus says are headed for destruction, and they will never see the "gate to life" (See also "perishing" 2Th. 2:10, 2Co. 4:3-4) and offer to go over your reasoning as to why, they have a tendency to get angry, and they are certainly not going to seek out all the reasons for why or how you came to that conclusion, nor are they going to continue asking. Like I said, they are done.

I lean towards everyone still being able to change their initial choice in 2Th. 2:10-13, but from what I see, unless they are willing to consider that they could be in the group receiving the deluding influence from God to believe lies are truth and the truth is lies, this can never happen. I "KNOW" I could be in this group. Even if I am not right now. I most certainly "Was" in this group. And since I can never figure out where, and how, I am wrong unless someone shares a different belief from my own, those holding fast to different beliefs, who are willing to share why they have different beliefs, are exceedingly valuable to me. "Anyone who hears "THESE WORDS OF MINE" and "Obeys" them... or disobeys them Mat. 7:21-23, refers to the entire discussion starting in Mat. 7:1. So yes, the entire discussion applies to the same topic.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Re your testimony, I always knew God, so I find it significant how our different paths merged. I sought to know whether atheism was true because of its claim to be scientific and objective, which I learned not to be true.
There are people who have received a love of the truth so as to be saved ... eventually, who are continuously seeking, knocking, asking, and who never stop in possibly any belief group on the planet, and God promises top never stop His seeking of them until they receive the Holy Spirit. Luk. 11:13

It took 4 years of me winning people who "Believed they were Christians" from their lies to "Faith in the truth in Atheism" before God actually brought a Christian willing to go through every single one of the 10,000 errors I had gathered from the bible and my floor to knee scientific evidence that we evolved and weren't created. And it took me months to go through all of it. "Continuously proving all things, always holding fast to what was being proven good/true", for God to finally get me to the bible ... and the process never ever stops till the day I die.

We can't die, as long as we stay on the path that will eventually get us to the exceedingly tight "gate to life" until we get what He promises. Luk. 11:9-13 Stopping this process, ever, means we die with our current beliefs intact. But then we have stopped seeking, knocking and asking, so we have no guarantee at all.

Romans 3:11 means that all souls are sinners, not that all never repent of ignoring the truth.
Rom. 3:9-13 merely describes all men, including those who are on the "Path" leading to life "Until" the get through the gate leading to life. "And such some of you were ..." 1Co. 6:9-11

Yes, Rom. 2:14-16 means that sinful souls may repent of not seeking truth because of having a guilty conscience
when they break the Golden Rule, so as you said, they will get to hear the specific revelation eventually as a result of God's continued seeking per John 4:23-24.

The fact of death will prompt those who love and seek the truth to realize their need of divine salvation.
The problem is, apart from realizing they are most likely in the group that is receiving a deluding influence from God to believe lies, they are locked into their beliefs until they die. Every person regardless of beliefs or belief group knows they love truth and believe the truth.

"The greatest obstacle to getting "from" erroneous beliefs "to" truth is the "unquestionable faith" we already possess it." Me

Why truth does not prompt some souls to believe and behave as they should but choose to be swine is a mystery cited by Jesus in Matt. 13:14-15. For them "ignorance" is a double entendre. The original sin was choosing to believe a lie rather than question God.
Salvation is not about holding to a specific belief, or set of beliefs "as" truth. And that's the problem. All those doing exactly that, in every belief group in this world, are no longer capable of changing their beliefs. Noone ever seriously considers exchanging what they hold fast to as "unquestionably true" for anything "else". Everything "else" is, by definition, a lie. Thus, the closed eyes and ears. Thus, the responses like Mat. 7:6 and not Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13. One of the biggest "Fruits" of the lost Mat. 7:15-20, is having ANY unquestionably true beliefs. Every single belief I have is questionable. I will carefully objectively examine any evidence that "might" appear to contradict any/all of my beliefs. My eyes and ears remain open. For almost all, "Christian" or non-Christian, this is no longer the case.

I agree that TSers defined as willingness to alter beliefs seem to be few in number, although presumably they altered beliefs in order to become Christians. Discerning how to apply Mat. 7:22-23 and Mat. 7:6 is problematic.
Oops dealt with this one prior.

Re "Repenting of sin and seeking salvation (Matt. 4:17, 7:7) begins with love of Truth, which is the Way to the Door of eternal life, who is the Lord Jesus (2Thes. 2:10, John 14:6, 1:1-18).": I will consider rewording it in accordance with your comments:

{{{"put the horse before the cart in your wording for clarity. The ongoing love of truth, results in the ongoing pursuit of it, and applying 1Th. 5:21
And the ongoing "pursuit" of truth, 1Th. 5:21, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13 is what results in Joh. 4:23-24.
will result in God's ongoing seeking of us Joh. 4:23-24 and thus our eventual salvation. Salvation results from eventually coming to the "knowledge" of our sinfulness, the penalty we deserved for our sins, and Jesus taking the beatings, lashes, ... culminating in the most horrible death ever dreamt up by men taking our place. "Believing" these things, the tremendous penalty we owed, and that Jesus took our place on the cross, suffering the death we deserve because of His great love for us, while we were yet sinners and were still hostile to God is what results in Godly sorrow and repentance, and then doing everything in our power to correct anything, and everything that might be off from His will. 2Co. 7:9-11 "If you love Me you will ..." If you don't you won't.
Yes, loving truth, not what we believe to be truth, always resulting in ongoing seeking, knocking, asking, and never responding like those in Mat. 7:6 when others share differences in beliefs, but always like Mat. 7:7-11 or, to summarize our ongoing responses: Mat. 7:12, is the "Path" or "way" to the exceedingly narrow set of beliefs resulting in "Life" i.e. "saving faith". Mat. 7:14
Yes, if we miss the truth, which is guaranteed by the wrong response in 2Th. 2:10, and God responding to their wrong choice in 2Th. 2:11, we missed Jesus as well. Joh. 14:6. I am not sure how Joh. 1:1-18 fits in with the "door" Mat. 7:14 of "saving faith in the truth" from the limited text either.}}}

I am glad greater understanding has resulted in less disagreement, and I will get back to you with my rewording based on your comments tomorrow.
I see no disagreement. Just two people seeking to understand the truth so we can alter our beliefs and our lives to conform to it.

 

[GWH]

Re your testimony, I always knew God, so I find it significant how our different paths merged. I sought to know whether atheism was true because of its claim to be scientific and objective, which I learned not to be true.
There are people who have received a love of the truth so as to be saved ... eventually, who are continuously seeking, knocking, asking, and who never stop in possibly any belief group on the planet, and God promises top never stop His seeking of them until they receive the Holy Spirit. Luk. 11:13

It took 4 years of me winning people who "Believed they were Christians" from their lies to "Faith in the truth in Atheism" before God actually brought a Christian willing to go through every single one of the 10,000 errors I had gathered from the bible and my floor to knee scientific evidence that we evolved and weren't created. And it took me months to go through all of it. "Continuously proving all things, always holding fast to what was being proven good/true", for God to finally get me to the bible ... and the process never ever stops till the day I die.

We can't die, as long as we stay on the path that will eventually get us to the exceedingly tight "gate to life" until we get what He promises. Luk. 11:9-13 Stopping this process, ever, means we die with our current beliefs intact. But then we have stopped seeking, knocking and asking, so we have no guarantee at all.

Romans 3:11 means that all souls are sinners, not that all never repent of ignoring the truth.
Rom. 3:9-13 merely describes all men, including those who are on the "Path" leading to life "Until" the get through the gate leading to life. "And such some of you were ..." 1Co. 6:9-11

Yes, Rom. 2:14-16 means that sinful souls may repent of not seeking truth because of having a guilty conscience
when they break the Golden Rule, so as you said, they will get to hear the specific revelation eventually as a result of God's continued seeking per John 4:23-24.

The fact of death will prompt those who love and seek the truth to realize their need of divine salvation.
The problem is, apart from realizing they are most likely in the group that is receiving a deluding influence from God to believe lies, they are locked into their beliefs until they die. Every person regardless of beliefs or belief group knows they love truth and believe the truth.

"The greatest obstacle to getting "from" erroneous beliefs "to" truth is the "unquestionable faith" we already possess it." Me

Why truth does not prompt some souls to believe and behave as they should but choose to be swine is a mystery cited by Jesus in Matt. 13:14-15. For them "ignorance" is a double entendre. The original sin was choosing to believe a lie rather than question God.
Salvation is not about holding to a specific belief, or set of beliefs "as" truth. And that's the problem. All those doing exactly that, in every belief group in this world, are no longer capable of changing their beliefs. Noone ever seriously considers exchanging what they hold fast to as "unquestionably true" for anything "else". Everything "else" is, by definition, a lie. Thus, the closed eyes and ears. Thus, the responses like Mat. 7:6 and not Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13. One of the biggest "Fruits" of the lost Mat. 7:15-20, is having ANY unquestionably true beliefs. Every single belief I have is questionable. I will carefully objectively examine any evidence that "might" appear to contradict any/all of my beliefs. My eyes and ears remain open. For almost all, "Christian" or non-Christian, this is no longer the case.

I agree that TSers defined as willingness to alter beliefs seem to be few in number, although presumably they altered beliefs in order to become Christians. Discerning how to apply Mat. 7:22-23 and Mat. 7:6 is problematic.
Oops dealt with this one prior.

Re "Repenting of sin and seeking salvation (Matt. 4:17, 7:7) begins with love of Truth, which is the Way to the Door of eternal life, who is the Lord Jesus (2Thes. 2:10, John 14:6, 1:1-18).": I will consider rewording it in accordance with your comments:

{{{"put the horse before the cart in your wording for clarity. The ongoing love of truth, results in the ongoing pursuit of it, and applying 1Th. 5:21
And the ongoing "pursuit" of truth, 1Th. 5:21, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13 is what results in Joh. 4:23-24.
will result in God's ongoing seeking of us Joh. 4:23-24 and thus our eventual salvation. Salvation results from eventually coming to the "knowledge" of our sinfulness, the penalty we deserved for our sins, and Jesus taking the beatings, lashes, ... culminating in the most horrible death ever dreamt up by men taking our place. "Believing" these things, the tremendous penalty we owed, and that Jesus took our place on the cross, suffering the death we deserve because of His great love for us, while we were yet sinners and were still hostile to God is what results in Godly sorrow and repentance, and then doing everything in our power to correct anything, and everything that might be off from His will. 2Co. 7:9-11 "If you love Me you will ..." If you don't you won't.
Yes, loving truth, not what we believe to be truth, always resulting in ongoing seeking, knocking, asking, and never responding like those in Mat. 7:6 when others share differences in beliefs, but always like Mat. 7:7-11 or, to summarize our ongoing responses: Mat. 7:12, is the "Path" or "way" to the exceedingly narrow set of beliefs resulting in "Life" i.e. "saving faith". Mat. 7:14
Yes, if we miss the truth, which is guaranteed by the wrong response in 2Th. 2:10, and God responding to their wrong choice in 2Th. 2:11, we missed Jesus as well. Joh. 14:6. I am not sure how Joh. 1:1-18 fits in with the "door" Mat. 7:14 of "saving faith in the truth" from the limited text either.}}}

I am glad greater understanding has resulted in less disagreement, and I will get back to you with my rewording based on your comments tomorrow.
I see no disagreement. Just two people seeking to understand the truth so we can alter our beliefs and our lives to conform to it.

I am glad we agree, but I will elaborate on a few points:

1. God loves everyone and favors/wills/seeks for them to learn ultimate truth and be saved (1Tim. 2:3-4), but souls are free/able to sift themselves off of the path to salvation by choosing not to love/desire the truth (Matt. 23:37). Only God knows when their hearts become so calloused that they are totally depraved and will never repent (Matt. 13:14-15), but many passages in Hebrews (Heb. 3:7-4:11, 6:4-6 & 10:23-39) indicate that it occurs if/when saints commit apostasy, which implicitly must be unforgivable blasphemy (Matt. 12:31-32). This why saving faith is often expressed using the present progressive tense and saints are urged to keep believing.

2. The fruit of atheists can resemble that of the, because Satan can appear to be an angel of light (2Cor. 11:14). Atheists can do good without giving God the glory as the One who determines loving behavior to be good. Also, saints remain sinners and therefore their behavior may sometimes resemble the deeds of darkness (Eph. 5:11).

3. It is interesting that your first ministry attempted to convert saints to atheism/apostasy, whereas mine attempted to inoculate saints against that disease.

4. Souls who were saved on the basis of general revelation and died without receiving the NT must attend make-up classes in heaven. (Meanwhile I will sign up for the courses on angelology and the interpretation of Revelation.)

5. Regarding unquestionable beliefs or "every person regardless of beliefs or belief group knows they love truth and believe the truth", I doubt this is true. However, only God knows whether someone has a psychological excuse for rejecting Him, such as being raised by a hateful father who claimed to believe in the heavenly Father. (Your case?)
Like you (but because my motivation from the beginning of my ministry was exposing the lies of atheism), to this day I always consider what they would say about my beliefs, which is why my theology begins with apologetics and moves into theodicy.

And I agree that we seem to be a rare denomination of Christianity.

6. Regarding the part in {{{ }}} I will let you comment on anything there that we have not covered.

 

[EmethAlethia]

I am glad we agree, but I will elaborate on a few points:

1. God loves everyone and favors/wills/seeks for them to learn ultimate truth and be saved (1Tim. 2:3-4), but souls are free/able to sift themselves off of the path to salvation by choosing not to love/desire the truth (Matt. 23:37).

God's desires are for salvation and faith in the truth ... for everyone. As you say, God also "desires" for every man to choose what he wants and doesn't want. "Just" rewards and "Just" punishments require a choice to be made. Punishing a 6-month-old baby, for dirtying a diaper, for example can never be just. It's not a choice they can make. Nor is rewarding someone for something they have no choice in "Just". And don't forget 2Th. 2:10-13 that's the one determining if they can even see the true gospel (Same word "perish" 1Th. 2:10, 2Cor. 4:3-4) or they are completely blind to it, and cannot see it nor respond to it.

Only God knows when their hearts become so calloused that they are totally depraved and will never repent (Matt. 13:14-15),

All those who reject a love of the truth are at this point in Mat. 13:14-15. There are only 2 possible choices. Receive it, have the right "Fruits", stay on the correct "Path" because you received a love of the truth or "Perish" not be "saved" and because you are "perishing" you cannot even see, let alone believe the true gospel. 2Co. 4:3-4 None of those "perishing" 2Th. 2:10 can. If you are asking if people "can" still change their choice if they make the wrong one in 2Th. 2:10-12, continued prayer for them is still done, so there must be some hope. Rom. 10:1-4 Unless you have other scriptures pointing to a different conclusion.

but many passages in Hebrews (Heb. 3:7-4:11, 6:4-6 & 10:23-39) indicate that it occurs if/when saints commit apostasy, which implicitly must be unforgivable blasphemy

Interesting view. The unforgiveable sin only occurs when the religious leaders, in the physical presence of Jesus (1st person of the trinity) Performed and preached the perfect will of the Father (2nd person of the trinity) through the direct power of the Holy Spirit (The third person in the Trinity. Blasphemy of God/Jesus is forgivable. I still do it on occasion, and repent once I figure out what I did. The problem is being in the physical presence of God the Father, Jesus and having the Holy Spirit bearing witness and attributing all He said and did to Satan. Mat. 12:28-32 This "sin" is never discussed in any other context. Obviously, I blasphemed God / Jesus / The Holy Spirit, as all men not believing in them does by default. But this is a different situation from the one where Jesus says this is the unforgiveable sin.

There is a difference between true Christians deciding to stop figuring out and doing God's will, which always results in the discipline of God Heb. 12:6-8 / Heb. 11:28-32 / (For the "sleep" reference 1Cor. 5:5, 1Co. 15:51. ) and those who believe they are Christians, but never really were, (Which is almost all of them Mat. 7) and stop. 1Jn. 2:19 The problem is, if they were true Christians, and they depart from it, not only are the consequences from God guaranteed, but, since God takes them home, they lose out on any potential rewards. Heb. 6:4-8 No, they don't lose salvation, but they will see everything they did burn away. They will enter heaven with nothing... which is as "close" top being cursed as a person can get.

True Christians receive their judgment now. 1Co. 11:28-32. 1Co. 3:10-15 discusses what we leave this life with. Rewards, or having our fields scorched and being as "Close" to being cursed as a person can get.

(Matt. 12:31-32). This why saving faith is often expressed using the present progressive tense and saints are urged to keep believing.

Again, same situation as the other times "Blasphemy of the Spirit" is mentioned. Attributing the full God Head's actions as Satanic. Mat. 12: 28

2. The fruit of atheists can resemble that of the, because Satan can appear to be an angel of light (2Cor. 11:14).

Which explains the tablets delivered by an "angel of light" to Joseph Smith.

Atheists can do good without giving God the glory as the One who determines loving behavior to be good. Also, saints remain sinners and therefore their behavior may sometimes resemble the deeds of darkness (Eph. 5:11).

Interesting. that verse is a part of another passage where the "Fruits" of being a true Christian are mentioned. Eph. 5:6-12 Oh, and it would appear Christians can also face the "wrath of God" or we could not be partakers with them. You were right. I was wrong. Eph. 5:6-7

3. It is interesting that your first ministry attempted to convert saints to atheism/apostasy, whereas mine attempted to inoculate saints against that disease.

The "Good News": Those who are currently lost, regardless of their beliefs, actions, belief group, ... will be saved if they received a love of the truth and thus have the correct "Fruits" and stay on the right path that will get them "From" erroneous beliefs "to" truth. And, since almost all people professing to be "Christians" are not on the path where they can get "From" erroneous beliefs "to" truth, and lack the proper "Fruits" as well, almost all "gospels" the majority of Christians believe are true gospels are guaranteed to be wrong. (Again the "perishing" parts of 2Th. 2:10 and 2Co. 4:3-4) Another reason to never ever stop seeking to figure out where we are wrong.

The good news is everyone, regardless of the beliefs they have now, if they receive a love of the truth, God is seeking them and will never stop till He gets them. But then, they will also have the ongoing "Fruits" of Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-(13).

4. Souls who were saved on the basis of general revelation and died without receiving the NT must attend make-up classes in heaven. (Meanwhile I will sign up for the courses on angelology and the interpretation of Revelation.)

There is no one who dies without saving faith who didn't receiver absolutely everything they needed to "choose" correctly in 2Th. 2:10-13. Rom. 1:20 states that with what god says He built into everyone Rom. 1:19-21 every person "could" have chosen to make the correct decision ... either that, or God was unfaithful to get them everything and it is God who is proven to be a liar. Rom. 3:3-4 No make up courses. Live once. Then judgment. Heb. 9:27

 

[EmethAlethia]

5. Regarding unquestionable beliefs or "every person regardless of beliefs or belief group knows they love truth and believe the truth", I doubt this is true.

Question: Who, regardless of their beliefs, has ever said to you, "I know I don't love truth", or, "I know what I believe to be truth is wrong."? The reason "almost all" people evaluate who both loves truth, and who has the truth, based on their beliefs, and the beliefs of those who agree with them 1Co. 10:12, is because they have no understanding of truth, or how to get "from" erroneous beliefs "to" truth. and not based on whether or not their ongoing life "path", and ongoing "Fruits", will result in them detecting incorrect beliefs and exchanging them for truth, eventually if they never stop the process. Mat. 7:14 / 1Th. 5:21

Unquestionably true beliefs ALWAYS result in the wrong "Path" and the wrong "Fruits", "Closed eyes and ears", ... All those who die as non-Christians, and 99+% of those who believe they are "Christian", have the wrong "Fruits" and the wrong "Path". There is no overlap at all between the two sets of "Paths" / "Fruits". Mat. 7:15-20

Another question: Doesn't the word "Belief" only apply to what we "believe" to be true. "I believe I believe the truth "right now", but I am not proud and arrogant enough to state ANY of them are truth and thus I will never stop examining, proving all things over and over, accurately dissecting meaning to the best of my ability, and then altering my beliefs and life to fit what is being proven good/true. I am just as prone to receiving God's deluding influence to believe lies are truth and the truth is lies as everyone else on the planet is. Those who believe differently are delusional.

I believed I loved truth and had the truth as an Atheist. I believed my actions and change of beliefs as truth was revealed proved I did so. Guess what. My beliefs are still changing ... because I do. BUT ... every single person who was by my side that I helped go after Christians, or hunted them, all by myself after they pointed them out, responded like a dog/pig when I attempted to share with them. Some got downright angry.

Do you not believe as I do? While I believe I love truth, and that my ongoing path is guaranteed by God to get me "to" saving faith before I die, and I also believe my current beliefs "are" truth right now (Or they wouldn't be my beliefs in the first place.) I know better than to "believe" I am not wrong, and possibly completely off, right now. The "Fruits" and the "Path" are things I "Believe" I've figured out. BUT ... I'm never going to believe they are all truth. There are no perfect people, thus, no perfect sets of beliefs either.

Does this not make sense?

However, only God knows whether someone has a psychological excuse for rejecting Him, such as being raised by a hateful father who claimed to believe in the heavenly Father. (Your case?)

Roman Catholic background. Dad was a functional alcoholic, and one heck of a mean drunk. Roman Catholic ... not Christian. And there is no "excuse" that "can" "cause" someone not to choose to receive a love of the truth so as to be saved. Rom. 1:20 / Rom. 3:3-4 or God failed to be "Faithful" to get them everything they needed to get to saving faith, and He is the liar, and not every man who claims differently.

Does God say there is an "excuse" for choosing poorly in 2Th. 2:10-13? Is there a third option? God picked Phillip up and deposited him at the chariot of the Ethiopian Eunuch to share the gospel. God promises to never stop seeking those who have received a love of the truth Joh. 4:23-24.

Jesus says those who keep on seeking, knocking and asking will eventually receive the Holy Spirit. Luk. 11:9-13 It's a "choice" every human being is fully capable of making REGARDLESS of their background and experiences... or God lies in Rom. 3:3-4 and not everyone who ends up in judgment can say "God was not faithful to get me what I needed to be saved." , and, "I have an excuse." Rom. 1:20

Like you (but because my motivation from the beginning of my ministry was exposing the lies of atheism), to this day I always consider what they would say about my beliefs, which is why my theology begins with apologetics and moves into theodicy.

LOL My goal was to get to truth and believe truth and to share truth. Which is exactly what I "believed" I was doing by witnessing to "Christians".

And my focus is pretty much the same as yours. Summed up in Mat. 28:19-20. Having gone, keep "disciplising". Keep on baptizing those disciples and not only teach those disciples how to get to the truth of the meaning of all I commanded you, but actually teach them how to obey all of them.

And I agree that we seem to be a rare denomination of "Christianity".

But then, "They went out from us for they were never of us." Jesus says, " I NEVER knew you. Depart from Me ye who work iniquity." Almost all never were true Christians in the 1st place. The right "Path": Will always get you "From" erroneous beliefs "to" the narrow gate of "faith in the truth" ... eventually, if you never get off it. The right ongoing "Fruits", only true Christians can possess, and none of the other ones, will be true of you your entire life.

6. Regarding the part in {{{ }}} I will let you comment on anything there that we have not covered.

I don't see anything either of us is willingly "not covering" anything. And yes, truth seekers are an impossibly rare breed in any belief group. Wrong "Path" and wrong "Fruits" are the norm. But by gosh, I bear most of them witness, most of those who believe in a God seem to have a great zeal for Him ... in accordance with their beliefs. Rom. 10:1-3 And my heart's desire, and prayer for them, is for their salvation. The problem is their zeal is not in accordance with knowledge, and that their goal, if they go to scripture at all, is to justify their beliefs, actions, responses, ... i.e. their own righteousness, and, for this reason, they do not to fully subject themselves to what He says.

 

[GWH]

Yes, God being just implies souls having MFW.
Yes, because we cannot judge when souls' hearts are hopelessly hardened, we should hope they are not.
No, if unforgiveable blasphemy = apostasy, you have not committed it. Heb. 6:4-6 is NOT equal to 1Cor. 3:15.
Yes, true Christians/saints who sin lose some reward, although heaven will be happy for all.

Regarding Joe Smith, he was confused by there being so many denominations of Christianity,
so he asked God which one was true, and he perceived God to say, "None, so start another one."

Re wrath: The fire than warms (Heb. 12:6) also burns (Eph. 5:6-7). What should be welcomed as a warning
may be resented as condemnation (Gen. 4:5-7).

Re the right path: My reference to self-sifting alluded to Luke 22:31.

Re make-up courses: Those are audited just for fun/interest--to see if our harmonizations were correct.

Re not loving truth: Actions speak louder than words (Matt. 12:33-37), although this does not mean saints are perfect.
IOW, wrong beliefs produce wicked behavior. Atheists seeking/loving truth are not far from the kingdom of God.
The PP expresses this logic, which is why it concludes with "This (PP) is why all truthseekers should agree on NT theism
now rather than assume atheism is an unlucky guess. As someone has said, heaven is like a vision of water in the desert:
the scoffer will surely die where he/she is, while the believer will live if right. Again, however, this analogy should be viewed
in terms of comparison shopping (testing) and logic rather than of blind faith and fear."

Yes, TSers remain amenable to amending their beliefs, which is why I incorporated 2Thes. 2:10 into the Creed with #6.

Scripture does not address every issue, including the possibility of psychological excuses or drug addiction because of your dad, whereas mine imitated the heavenly Father so well that it would have taken a miracle for me NOT to be a Christian--
which is why your testimony probably is a better witness for Christ than mine, ironically enough.

Regarding judging who is a Christian: Only God knows the %. I have travelled mainly in Christian circles all my life,
but I have my doubts about anyone who agrees with the Marxist policies of the current crop of Dems.
I also worry about/pray for tulipists, who espouse obvious heresy and seem oblivious to divine justness.

 

[EmethAlethia]

"No, if unforgiveable blasphemy = apostasy, you have not committed it. Heb. 6:4-6 is NOT equal to 1Cor. 3:15."

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was only ever done while Christ was doing God's work and the religious leaders attributed the fullness of the Godhead was the power of Satan Himself. Neither Heb. 6:4-8 nor 1Co. 3:11-15 is on blasphemy. Apostacy yes. Blasphemy no. But ... there are parallels in every part of both passages. The same things are done as a result, both suffer loss, and both may end up in heaven with no rewards at all. But they still end up in heaven.

Same as the non-repentant Christian in 1Co. 5:1-5. Grave sins even the Gentiles would never consider doing ... and he's still showing up in church like there is nothing wrong. What's the penalty? Loss of salvation? Nope. Loss of physical life. 1Co. 5:5 He, like all true Christians, pays the price NOW. Heavenly rewards, or lack thereof happen after we receive our judgment now. The details as to when these consequences happen and what God's judgments are for them are found in 1Co. 11:27-32. Now let's look a bit closer at the two passages you mentioned.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

1Co 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
​

Let's see how close these line up.

Are the people who build on the foundation of Christ with "Wood, Hay, Stubble, thorns, thistles, ...", in 1Co. 3:11, will these people be lost and sent to hell? In both cases will the thorns, thistles, wood, hay and stubble be burned up? Heb. 6:8, 1Co. 3:15 If you end up with your thorns, thistles, or wood hay and stubble are burned up are you "Cursed", i.e. sent to hell? Look at Heb. 6:8. How "Close" to being cursed can you be ... and not be cursed? If you enter heaven, and absolutely everything is burnt up, will you suffer loss? 1Co. 3:15 If all you have done in your life is "burned" will you suffer loss? Heb. 6:8

No one is going to hell in either case. In both cases the refuse is burned up. In both cases the person is being saved ... still, in spite of the loss of almost all they did being burned. In both passages, the writers are discuss what happens with we do with our lives after salvation. Are you sure ... really sure ... these aren't parallel passages? If so, based on what?

"Atheists seeking/loving truth are not far from the kingdom of God."

Anyone continuously, habitually doing what it takes to keep on testing their current beliefs against all opposing beliefs with a willingness to alter any/all of their beliefs and their life to fit what is being proven good/true is not "far" from the Kingdom of God. Could stumble over it in 5 minutes or 55 years though. All we know is God promises everyone who stays on that path will receive the Holy Spirit eventually. Luk. 11:9-13

"Regarding judging who is a Christian: Only God knows the %. "

I agree. God only knows the %. My conclusion is based on my ongoing discussions with "Christians" over 50 years. God warns true Christians to judge the salvation of themselves and others, but not by their doctrines or voting record. LOL

How do they/we respond when they/we share differences in beliefs and evidence? Is it like those in Mat. 7:6 or Mat. 7:7-12? There is no overlap in the "Fruits" / "Paths" of true Christians, and those who believe they are but do not possess the "Fruits" and are not on the path that would, eventually, get them "to" truth "From" erroneous beliefs.

In 40 years, have discussed beliefs with thousands of "Christians", and hundreds of pastors. I have only met a handful of people on the correct "Path" and who also possess the ongoing habitual "Fruits" God says are always true of true Christians. Let me be conservative. 5 in about 4000 professing Christians is what %? 0.125% is my current estimate. So far you pass. LOL How am I doing?

 

[GWH]

"No, if unforgiveable blasphemy = apostasy, you have not committed it. Heb. 6:4-6 is NOT equal to 1Cor. 3:15."

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was only ever done while Christ was doing God's work and the religious leaders attributed the fullness of the Godhead was the power of Satan Himself. Neither Heb. 6:4-8 nor 1Co. 3:11-15 is on blasphemy. Apostacy yes. Blasphemy no. But ... there are parallels in every part of both passages. The same things are done as a result, both suffer loss, and both may end up in heaven with no rewards at all. But they still end up in heaven.

Same as the non-repentant Christian in 1Co. 5:1-5. Grave sins even the Gentiles would never consider doing ... and he's still showing up in church like there is nothing wrong. What's the penalty? Loss of salvation? Nope. Loss of physical life. 1Co. 5:5 He, like all true Christians, pays the price NOW. Heavenly rewards, or lack thereof happen after we receive our judgment now. The details as to when these consequences happen and what God's judgments are for them are found in 1Co. 11:27-32. Now let's look a bit closer at the two passages you mentioned.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

1Co 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
​

Let's see how close these line up.

Are the people who build on the foundation of Christ with "Wood, Hay, Stubble, thorns, thistles, ...", in 1Co. 3:11, will these people be lost and sent to hell? In both cases will the thorns, thistles, wood, hay and stubble be burned up? Heb. 6:8, 1Co. 3:15 If you end up with your thorns, thistles, or wood hay and stubble are burned up are you "Cursed", i.e. sent to hell? Look at Heb. 6:8. How "Close" to being cursed can you be ... and not be cursed? If you enter heaven, and absolutely everything is burnt up, will you suffer loss? 1Co. 3:15 If all you have done in your life is "burned" will you suffer loss? Heb. 6:8

No one is going to hell in either case. In both cases the refuse is burned up. In both cases the person is being saved ... still, in spite of the loss of almost all they did being burned. In both passages, the writers are discuss what happens with we do with our lives after salvation. Are you sure ... really sure ... these aren't parallel passages? If so, based on what?

"Atheists seeking/loving truth are not far from the kingdom of God."

Anyone continuously, habitually doing what it takes to keep on testing their current beliefs against all opposing beliefs with a willingness to alter any/all of their beliefs and their life to fit what is being proven good/true is not "far" from the Kingdom of God. Could stumble over it in 5 minutes or 55 years though. All we know is God promises everyone who stays on that path will receive the Holy Spirit eventually. Luk. 11:9-13

"Regarding judging who is a Christian: Only God knows the %. "

I agree. God only knows the %. My conclusion is based on my ongoing discussions with "Christians" over 50 years. God warns true Christians to judge the salvation of themselves and others, but not by their doctrines or voting record. LOL

How do they/we respond when they/we share differences in beliefs and evidence? Is it like those in Mat. 7:6 or Mat. 7:7-12? There is no overlap in the "Fruits" / "Paths" of true Christians, and those who believe they are but do not possess the "Fruits" and are not on the path that would, eventually, get them "to" truth "From" erroneous beliefs.

In 40 years, have discussed beliefs with thousands of "Christians", and hundreds of pastors. I have only met a handful of people on the correct "Path" and who also possess the ongoing habitual "Fruits" God says are always true of true Christians. Let me be conservative. 5 in about 4000 professing Christians is what %? 0.125% is my current estimate. So far you pass. LOL How am I doing?

You began by not doing well because of denying the obvious teaching in Heb. 3:7-4:11, 6:4-6 & 10:23-39 that those who commit apostasy will never repent and thus be damned. The connection between Heb. 6:4-6 and Matt. 12:31-32 seems logical, but not as obvious, because what Jesus viewed as unforgivable blasphemy was not clearly explained.

1Cor.3:15 refers to saints who build wrong didachaic doctrine on the foundational Gospel of Christ, but clear examples of such also are not stated, although the person in 1Cor. 5:1-5 may indeed be one. However, wood and straw due to immaturity are NOT equivalent to thorns and thistles due to repudiating faith in Christ, so the two passages do NOT line up, especially in light of the other two passages in Hebrews that you ignored.

You did much better aligning 2Thes. 2:10 with Luke 11:9-13.

Regarding the % of true Christians, apparently I travel in better circles than you, because I have no good reason to doubt the salvation of anyone I meet. Immature? Yes. But unsaved? None.
Not sure what % our two circles would average out to be.

I rarely encounter anyone interested in dialectical discussion of doctrines.
Too many on CC have problematic pope complexes!

 

[EmethAlethia]

You began by not doing well because of denying the obvious teaching in Heb. 3:7-4:11, 6:4-6 & 10:23-39 that those who commit apostasy will never repent and thus be damned. The connection between Heb. 6:4-6 and Matt. 12:31-32 seems logical, but not as obvious, because what Jesus viewed as unforgivable blasphemy was not clearly explained.

1Cor.3:15 refers to saints who build wrong didachaic doctrine on the foundational Gospel of Christ, but clear examples of such also are not stated, although the person in 1Cor. 5:1-5 may indeed be one. However, wood and straw due to immaturity are NOT equivalent to thorns and thistles due to repudiating faith in Christ, so the two passages do NOT line up, especially in light of the other two passages in Hebrews that you ignored.

You did much better aligning 2Thes. 2:10 with Luke 11:9-13.

Regarding the % of true Christians, apparently I travel in better circles than you, because I have no good reason to doubt the salvation of anyone I meet. Immature? Yes. But unsaved? None.
Not sure what % our two circles would average out to be.

I rarely encounter anyone interested in dialectical discussion of doctrines.
Too many on CC have problematic pope complexes!

Heb. 3:7-4:11

Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest,

Professions of faith abound. Faith without "Fruits" or being on the right "path" does not save. Even the parables of the "Sower of the word" Mat. 13:3-23, Mar. 4:2-20, Luk. 8:4-15 describes the different patterns of acceptance.

Heb. 6:4-8

You missed the last 2 verses of the context. Are these people "Cursed" and on their way to hell? Is that what it says? How close can you be to going to hell and not get there?

Heb 6:8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

What is burned? The fields or the thorns and thistles? The field is left empty and barren. It's as "close to being cursed" as a field can be.

Well, as far as believing other people are saved or not, we are warned to judge salvation by "Fruits" and not beliefs. Mat. 7:15-20 It is also to be an ongoing continuous process of evaluating ourselves and others who profess / believe they are Christians. 2Co. 13:5-6 But almost everyone who I have met evaluates based on the alignment of others with their beliefs and those of their belief group. Which, since everyone in the 45,000 Christian and 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups does. Everyone always passes their own tests evaluating based on beliefs. 2Co. 10:12 But God says everyone evaluating their salvation based on this standard has no idea of what truth is or how to get to it. EVERYONE passes their own test of loving truth and possessing truth when it comes to their core beliefs.

And those evaluating based on this standard cannot obey 2Co. 13:5-6. We are commanded to do this as an ongoing habitual never ceasing evaluation process. (Present Tense) Those evaluating based on beliefs cannot keep on habitually doing this. It makes no sense at all. "Yep. Same beliefs as yesterday. Yep. Same beliefs as the last 42 years." And Paul says, if you can't, or won't keep on habitually evaluating you automatically fail the test. 2Co. 13:5 "... unless indeed you fail the test?"

Very rarely do I not get the responses in Mat. 7:6. This requires me to stop sharing, and it is a part of "These words of mine" that if we aren't "obeying" also proves we are not saved. Mat. 7:21, 24-27.

Plus, I almost never see the responses listed in Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13, and if they aren't habitually doing these things over and over and over again, they will never receive the Holy Spirit. Luk. 11:13

Plus, the "path" that will get anyone in the 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 different Christian belief groups "from" erroneous beliefs "to" truth. Is almost never taken... by anyone. There is no ongoing "Proving of all things over and over again, holding fast to what is being proven good/true." 1Th. 5:21 Most will never ever seriously consider their core beliefs could indicate their "fruits" and "Path" prove they are locked into that "other" eternal destination, and not life. Almost all, "Christian" or not, have, "Proven their beliefs true once. And are holding fast to them."

There are many other passages describing ongoing habitual "Fruits" of both the saved and the lost. Almost everyone has the "Fruits" and is on the "path" that will allow them to die with their current beliefs intact. Noone ever seriously considers exchanging beliefs they know, beyond a doubt, are true, when everything "else" in opposition to their beliefs is, by definition", lies.

There is absolutely NO overlap in the "Fruits" of those who are on the broad path leading to the wide gate of destruction and those on the ongoing path of tribulation leading to the exceedingly narrow gate of "faith in the truth". And almost all people who believe they are "Christian" fail the test according to Jesus in Mat. 7. So, based just on God's standards I listed, not all the other ongoing habitual "Fruits", how many people pass the test just based on these?

 

[GWH]

Heb. 3:7-4:11

Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest,

Professions of faith abound. Faith without "Fruits" or being on the right "path" does not save. Even the parables of the "Sower of the word" Mat. 13:3-23, Mar. 4:2-20, Luk. 8:4-15 describes the different patterns of acceptance.

Heb. 6:4-8

You missed the last 2 verses of the context. Are these people "Cursed" and on their way to hell? Is that what it says? How close can you be to going to hell and not get there?

Heb 6:8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

What is burned? The fields or the thorns and thistles? The field is left empty and barren. It's as "close to being cursed" as a field can be.

Well, as far as believing other people are saved or not, we are warned to judge salvation by "Fruits" and not beliefs. Mat. 7:15-20 It is also to be an ongoing continuous process of evaluating ourselves and others who profess / believe they are Christians. 2Co. 13:5-6 But almost everyone who I have met evaluates based on the alignment of others with their beliefs and those of their belief group. Which, since everyone in the 45,000 Christian and 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups does. Everyone always passes their own tests evaluating based on beliefs. 2Co. 10:12 But God says everyone evaluating their salvation based on this standard has no idea of what truth is or how to get to it. EVERYONE passes their own test of loving truth and possessing truth when it comes to their core beliefs.

And those evaluating based on this standard cannot obey 2Co. 13:5-6. We are commanded to do this as an ongoing habitual never ceasing evaluation process. (Present Tense) Those evaluating based on beliefs cannot keep on habitually doing this. It makes no sense at all. "Yep. Same beliefs as yesterday. Yep. Same beliefs as the last 42 years." And Paul says, if you can't, or won't keep on habitually evaluating you automatically fail the test. 2Co. 13:5 "... unless indeed you fail the test?"

Very rarely do I not get the responses in Mat. 7:6. This requires me to stop sharing, and it is a part of "These words of mine" that if we aren't "obeying" also proves we are not saved. Mat. 7:21, 24-27.

Plus, I almost never see the responses listed in Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13, and if they aren't habitually doing these things over and over and over again, they will never receive the Holy Spirit. Luk. 11:13

Plus, the "path" that will get anyone in the 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 different Christian belief groups "from" erroneous beliefs "to" truth. Is almost never taken... by anyone. There is no ongoing "Proving of all things over and over again, holding fast to what is being proven good/true." 1Th. 5:21 Most will never ever seriously consider their core beliefs could indicate their "fruits" and "Path" prove they are locked into that "other" eternal destination, and not life. Almost all, "Christian" or not, have, "Proven their beliefs true once. And are holding fast to them."

There are many other passages describing ongoing habitual "Fruits" of both the saved and the lost. Almost everyone has the "Fruits" and is on the "path" that will allow them to die with their current beliefs intact. Noone ever seriously considers exchanging beliefs they know, beyond a doubt, are true, when everything "else" in opposition to their beliefs is, by definition", lies.

There is absolutely NO overlap in the "Fruits" of those who are on the broad path leading to the wide gate of destruction and those on the ongoing path of tribulation leading to the exceedingly narrow gate of "faith in the truth". And almost all people who believe they are "Christian" fail the test according to Jesus in Mat. 7. So, based just on God's standards I listed, not all the other ongoing habitual "Fruits", how many people pass the test just based on these?

Hmm. It is interesting to find you defending a previous understanding rather than amending it in accordance with the broader context of Hebrews I cited, which clearly indicates that those who do not enter God's rest are not saved, and those who are burned are damned. Please read Heb. 10:23-35 until you realize that it is not equivalent to 1Cor. 3:10-15 and we can move on. In The Parable of the Sower (Matt. 13:1-23) only the fertile soil was saved. The shallow soil seems to be the cause of apostasy.

Regarding judging, the command to take the plank out of our own eyes seems related to 2Thes. 2:10. Then we are commanded to judge correctly based on our humble opinion of the truth/GRFS. The reactions I get when I share my beliefs tend to be indifference--like being on different wavelengths--more than trampling. This is why it is gratifying to discuss things with fellow truthseekers like yourself. Perhaps you are more fruitful in your vicious circle than I am in my friendly one.

Do you have a thread or topic that you would like me to discuss, or would you like to constructively critique mine?
Have we shared our hermeneutics fully enough?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

We don't have to like that God says Jesus and the bible are synonyms. It's His wording. I'm happy with that. Do I understand it? To some extent. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." There is no salvation apart from hearing the word of God. There is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. These are linked in every way there is no salvation apart from either of them. Is the written word a separate entity from Christ? God's word links them throughout the scriptures. There is no salvation apart from either of them. If you believe differently, please post the reasons for your disagreement.

I see equating the Bible with God as one big step forward in a long progression of bad doctrines that have distanced man from God. And I suspect that your involvement in the movement is more than superficial. I don't think I can help you overcome it. But I know who can help you...

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. (Jas 1:5–8)​

 

[EmethAlethia]

I see equating the Bible with God as one big step forward in a long progression of bad doctrines that have distanced man from God.

Interesting statement, since there is nothing we can "Know" about God or Christ, apart from scriptures, and apart from them there is no way to even know, let alone believe, the true gospel. "Salvation comes by hearing, and hearing buy the Word of God." How do the scriptures distance you from God?

I ask for wisdom, quite often. Salvation comes by faith in Christ, but no man can come to Christ apart from the word of God. Both are equally required. Show me where I am off, using scripture.

I am open to hearing and altering my views, when the fullness of all the scriptures have to say are "accurately dissected" without adding meaning not in the scriptures, subtracting meaning that is there, and without distorting any meaning in an effort to force it to comply with my beliefs. When I am done I know all correct beliefs make God, God's word, and God's people in the bible 100% consistent in all they say and do and don't say and don't do, and that if any ramification of any of my beliefs doesn't make any logical, reasonable, rational sense, my beliefs are wrong. (See Jesus' Methodology for determining incorrect beliefs)

And I suspect that your involvement in the movement is more than superficial. I don't think I can help you overcome it. But I know who can help you...

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. (Jas 1:5–8)​

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Interesting statement, since there is nothing we can "Know" about God or Christ, apart from scriptures, and apart from them there is no way to even know, let alone believe, the true gospel.

This is not true either. Many Scriptures indicate that God, not the Bible, is the cheif evangelist. Here is one example:

It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (Jn 6:45)​

Replacing "God" with "the Bible" would yield something like the following:

"It is written in the Bible that they shall all be taught by the Bible. Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned from the Bible goes to the Bible for salvation.​

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This would be a totally different message -- one in which people would be discouraged from hearing and learning from God that they need to trust in Jesus for their salvation.

"Salvation comes by hearing, and hearing buy the Word of God." How do the scriptures distance you from God?

I ask for wisdom, quite often. Salvation comes by faith in Christ, but no man can come to Christ apart from the word of God. Both are equally required. Show me where I am off, using scripture.

I am open to hearing and altering my views, when the fullness of all the scriptures have to say are "accurately dissected" without adding meaning not in the scriptures, subtracting meaning that is there, and without distorting any meaning in an effort to force it to comply with my beliefs. When I am done I know all correct beliefs make God, God's word, and God's people in the bible 100% consistent in all they say and do and don't say and don't do, and that if any ramification of any of my beliefs doesn't make any logical, reasonable, rational sense, my beliefs are wrong. (See Jesus' Methodology for determining incorrect beliefs)

You misquoted Romans 10:17 when you added an upper case "W". And you are "adding meaning" that is not in the verse when you interpret it to mean that people can't "come to Christ" apart from the Bible. What's really there is much different than what you make it say:

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13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”​

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14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:​

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“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,​

Who bring glad tidings of good things!”​

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16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Ro 10:13–17)​

Romans 10:17 summarizes our role as ambasadors for Christ as He sends us out to preach the good news about His Son to a lost world. He sends preachers to preach the gospel and their feet are beautiful (vs 15). People hear about Jesus when the preachers tell them the gospel (vs 14). Some of those people believe in Jesus after they hear about Him and they call on Him for salvation (vs 14). And Jesus saves every person who calls on Him for salvation (vs 13).

 

[GWH]

This is not true either. Many Scriptures indicate that God, not the Bible, is the cheif evangelist. Here is one example:

It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (Jn 6:45)​

Replacing "God" with "the Bible" would yield something like the following:

"It is written in the Bible that they shall all be taught by the Bible. Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned from the Bible goes to the Bible for salvation.​

​

This would be a totally different message -- one in which people would be discouraged from hearing and learning from God that they need to trust in Jesus for their salvation.

You misquoted Romans 10:17 when you added an upper case "W". And you are "adding meaning" that is not in the verse when you interpret it to mean that people can't "come to Christ" apart from the Bible. What's really there is much different than what you make it say:

​

13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”​

​

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:​

​

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,​

Who bring glad tidings of good things!”​

​

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Ro 10:13–17)​

Romans 10:17 summarizes our role as ambasadors for Christ as He sends us out to preach the good news about His Son to a lost world. He sends preachers to preach the gospel and their feet are beautiful (vs 15). People hear about Jesus when the preachers tell them the gospel (vs 14). Some of those people believe in Jesus after they hear about Him and they call on Him for salvation (vs 14). And Jesus saves every person who calls on Him for salvation (vs 13).

You two are exemplifying the need for harmonizing instead of talking past each other due to either-or logic.
IOW, GW is revealed both by creation, inspired Scripture, Christ, the Holy Spirit and the testimony of Believers when every manifestation is harmonized.

Do we agree?

 

[EmethAlethia]

This is not true either. Many Scriptures indicate that God, not the Bible, is the cheif evangelist. Here is one example:

It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (Jn 6:45)​

You prove my point, "It is written". You wouldn't know that fact apart from God's word. Salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Replacing "God" with "the Bible" would yield something like the following:

"It is written in the Bible that they shall all be taught by the Bible. Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned from the Bible goes to the Bible for salvation.​

There is no "knowledge of God" apart from the scriptures. They teach us what God has said and meant. It's the "voice" of God" and apart from what has been revealed in His word, there is no knowledge of God and His will anyone can rely on. We have nothing to believe in.

Until you hear "The word of God", Until you hear the "gospel", or read it, you cannot be saved, because you have no idea what the gospel is. The source is the "word of God". Any deviation from the gospel, recorded in the bible, and you are lost and headed for hell, are you not? How could you tell if there were a deviation from the truth without it?

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! 10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. ​

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This would be a totally different message -- one in which people would be discouraged from hearing and learning from God that they need to trust in Jesus for their salvation.

You will know nothing at all about Jesus, or salvation apart from the "Word of God". Why would anyone be discouraged hearing the "Word of God" or studying what God says? It's not a different message, it IS the message. Are you saying people are discouraged by hearing the Word of God? Salvation is discouraging? Salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God? What God has to say in His word is discouraging? The "Bible" the "Word of God" is what tells us that salvation is by faith in Jesus alone. I'm not getting what you are saying, obviously. You love the message, but you hate the fact that the message had to be delivered written down, but you'd never have the message if it wasn't written down first? Help me out here. I don't think I am understanding what you are saying.

You misquoted Romans 10:17 when you added an upper case "W".

Sorry about that, not my intention But ... John 1:1, Heb. 4:12-14

And you are "adding meaning" that is not in the verse when you interpret it to mean that people can't "come to Christ" apart from the Bible.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

I do believe that your disagreement is not with me. If we do not hear exactly the correct gospel from the "Word of God", unless you choose to capitalize the word "word" in this verse, you cannot come to saving faith. Do you disagree? I still am not seeing where you are coming from. There is no "Knowledge of God" apart from the "word of God". It is the "Source" of all revelation from God. There is no salvation apart from it because there is no knowledge of salvation or of God apart from it.

I really have no idea where you are coming from yet. I'd love to understand, Are you disagreeing with Rom. 10:17?

What's really there is much different than what you make it say:

I really am sorry, but I am not getting what you are trying to say.

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13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”​

let me see if I can get a partial handle on this. I really am trying to understand. "If" you are saying the source of salvation is God Himself, I agree. "If" you are saying, the source of salvation is Christ, I agree. "If" you are saying there is salvation apart from the word of God, I disagree. It is the mouth of God. There is no hearing or believing a gospel you can never hear apart from it. But somehow, I don't believe that is what you are saying.

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14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:​

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I still don't know what the problem is, "Faith comes by hearing" Yes. So preaching, sharing the "Word of God" is "Essential" for saving faith, "And hearing, by the word of God. Are we disagreeing? I am not seeing disagreement. I agree fully with the scriptures you are quoting, but you would have no scriptures to quote apart from the word of God, and the Word of God, right?

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,​

Who bring glad tidings of good things!”​

Again, I agree. Those who share the "Word of God" with others, who share the "good news" are a wonderful thing. What can they share apart from the "word of God". I must be very slow. I thought I was smarter than this. Please point out where our difference of opinion is. Is there a different way. Can you come at it from another direction?

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16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Ro 10:13–17)​

Again, I agree. That's the point. Written, or spoken, there is no salvation apart from Jesus, and no salvation apart from the word of God... because that is the only source of the gospel and of knowledge of God.

Romans 10:17 summarizes our role as ambasadors for Christ as He sends us out to preach the good news about His Son to a lost world. He sends preachers to preach the gospel and their feet are beautiful (vs 15). People hear about Jesus when the preachers tell them the gospel (vs 14). Some of those people believe in Jesus after they hear about Him and they call on Him for salvation (vs 14). And Jesus saves every person who calls on Him for salvation (vs 13).

What ticks me off is that I agree with absolutely everything you have to say. You do know there have been a lot of people saved apart from preachers and evangelists, and people sharing their faith. I do know of those who just read the word of God. No preacher, no pastor, no evangelist, no one sharing their faith. Just by reading through the bible.

Like I said, I am lost. I can't find a disagreement, unless you disagree with my points. Sorry. Maybe it's because I haven't had my cup of coffee yet. If you are willing to try again, if you see any disagreement, I most certainly will try and grasp what you share.