Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

[NewLifeInChrist]

There is no "knowledge of God" apart from the scriptures.

This forms a chicken and egg dillema. Which came first? Did the Scriptures come first, or did knowledge of God come first? Obviously, God inspired people to write the Scriptures. The source of their inspiration was not the Bible. God Himself was their source. He led them, and they followed. That is the same thing we do. We know God because He lives in our hearts. And He is not a silent God. He speaks to us Spirit to spirit, and we hear Him and we follow Him.

Scriptures... teach us what God has said and meant. It's the "voice" of God" and apart from what has been revealed in His word, there is no knowledge of God and His will anyone can rely on. We have nothing to believe in.

A person who does not think God speaks to him from the intimacy of his own heart would agree with you that we have nothing to believe in outside the Bible.

Until you hear "The word of God", Until you hear the "gospel", or read it, you cannot be saved, because you have no idea what the gospel is. The source is the "word of God". Any deviation from the gospel, recorded in the bible, and you are lost and headed for hell, are you not? How could you tell if there were a deviation from the truth without it?

What I like to call "The Silent God Theory" is the premise of your final question. It says "God does not speak to us today except through the Bible. If you want to know God's will, you must go find it in the Bible. If you want to obey God, then you must obey the Bible." The problem, of course, is that a person can't believe the Bible and believe that God is not actively involved in our lives, leading, guiding, directing, correcting, and comforting us from the intimacy of our own hearts.

I do believe that your disagreement is not with me.​

I believe you are conflating God and the Bible. You have admitted as much. I am saying that you are wrong on several fronts. First, the Bible is not God. Second, God is not silent. Third, His voice can be trusted because He is the most trustworthy person in existence. These errors are not independent, but interdependent. If our reality were to include no God or a slient God, then your propositions would make perfect sense. We would need the Bible to guide us into all truth because we would not have Him. But that is not the paradigm that we are operating under.

I still don't know what the problem is, "Faith comes by hearing" Yes. So preaching, sharing the "Word of God" is "Essential" for saving faith, "And hearing, by the word of God. Are we disagreeing? I am not seeing disagreement. I agree fully with the scriptures you are quoting, but you would have no scriptures to quote apart from the word of God, and the Word of God, right?

The Spirit of God teaches us concerning all things:

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (1 Jn 2:26–27)​

God inspired John to write these things to help us grasp the truth that God's Spirit is teaching us. God wants us to be aware that He lives in our hearts and that He is personally is teaching us the things He wants us to know. When we grasp that concept, and when we realize that God is actively guiding our understanding as John describes, we don't look back and give credit to the Scriptures for placing God into our hearts. But we rejoice in the role the Scriptures played in helping us to understand what God is doing in our lives.

Like I said, I am lost. I can't find a disagreement, unless you disagree with my points. Sorry. Maybe it's because I haven't had my cup of coffee yet. If you are willing to try again, if you see any disagreement, I most certainly will try and grasp what you share.

Hopefully what I said above helps fill in the gaps.

 

[GWH]

You prove my point, "It is written". You wouldn't know that fact apart from God's word. Salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

There is no "knowledge of God" apart from the scriptures. They teach us what God has said and meant. It's the "voice" of God" and apart from what has been revealed in His word, there is no knowledge of God and His will anyone can rely on. We have nothing to believe in.

Until you hear "The word of God", Until you hear the "gospel", or read it, you cannot be saved, because you have no idea what the gospel is. The source is the "word of God". Any deviation from the gospel, recorded in the bible, and you are lost and headed for hell, are you not? How could you tell if there were a deviation from the truth without it?

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! 10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. ​

You will know nothing at all about Jesus, or salvation apart from the "Word of God". Why would anyone be discouraged hearing the "Word of God" or studying what God says? It's not a different message, it IS the message. Are you saying people are discouraged by hearing the Word of God? Salvation is discouraging? Salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God? What God has to say in His word is discouraging? The "Bible" the "Word of God" is what tells us that salvation is by faith in Jesus alone. I'm not getting what you are saying, obviously. You love the message, but you hate the fact that the message had to be delivered written down, but you'd never have the message if it wasn't written down first? Help me out here. I don't think I am understanding what you are saying.

Sorry about that, not my intention But ... John 1:1, Heb. 4:12-14

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

I do believe that your disagreement is not with me. If we do not hear exactly the correct gospel from the "Word of God", unless you choose to capitalize the word "word" in this verse, you cannot come to saving faith. Do you disagree? I still am not seeing where you are coming from. There is no "Knowledge of God" apart from the "word of God". It is the "Source" of all revelation from God. There is no salvation apart from it because there is no knowledge of salvation or of God apart from it.

I really have no idea where you are coming from yet. I'd love to understand, Are you disagreeing with Rom. 10:17?

I really am sorry, but I am not getting what you are trying to say.

let me see if I can get a partial handle on this. I really am trying to understand. "If" you are saying the source of salvation is God Himself, I agree. "If" you are saying, the source of salvation is Christ, I agree. "If" you are saying there is salvation apart from the word of God, I disagree. It is the mouth of God. There is no hearing or believing a gospel you can never hear apart from it. But somehow, I don't believe that is what you are saying.

I still don't know what the problem is, "Faith comes by hearing" Yes. So preaching, sharing the "Word of God" is "Essential" for saving faith, "And hearing, by the word of God. Are we disagreeing? I am not seeing disagreement. I agree fully with the scriptures you are quoting, but you would have no scriptures to quote apart from the word of God, and the Word of God, right?

Again, I agree. Those who share the "Word of God" with others, who share the "good news" are a wonderful thing. What can they share apart from the "word of God". I must be very slow. I thought I was smarter than this. Please point out where our difference of opinion is. Is there a different way. Can you come at it from another direction?

Again, I agree. That's the point. Written, or spoken, there is no salvation apart from Jesus, and no salvation apart from the word of God... because that is the only source of the gospel and of knowledge of God.

What ticks me off is that I agree with absolutely everything you have to say. You do know there have been a lot of people saved apart from preachers and evangelists, and people sharing their faith. I do know of those who just read the word of God. No preacher, no pastor, no evangelist, no one sharing their faith. Just by reading through the bible.

Like I said, I am lost. I can't find a disagreement, unless you disagree with my points. Sorry. Maybe it's because I haven't had my cup of coffee yet. If you are willing to try again, if you see any disagreement, I most certainly will try and grasp what you share.

GW is revealed variously but most fully in the NT. Sinners are judged on the basis of the revelation they have been given. I find this truth indicated by the Parable of the Talents.

 

[EmethAlethia]

This forms a chicken and egg dillema. Which came first? Did the Scriptures come first, or did knowledge of God come first? Obviously, God inspired people to write the Scriptures. The source of their inspiration was not the Bible. God Himself was their source. He led them, and they followed. That is the same thing we do. We know God because He lives in our hearts. And He is not a silent God. He speaks to us Spirit to spirit, and we hear Him and we follow Him.

God reveals to us "In time" as it's the only framework we have. We have no concept of God outside what He chooses to reveal to us "in time". Theopnuestos - God breathed the word into existence using men "in time". All men are fully equipped, with this alone, for every good work. To state there is no salvation apart from the word of God is verified by scripture. That God Himself wrote it, using men is also something clearly stated.

The problem is, the vast masses of people believing they are Christians, who trust the Holy Spirit is guiding them into truth are wrong. Most of the time, He is guiding them into something different. 2Th. 2:11 as they love what they "want to believe" "as" truth and God gives everyone, believing they are Christians or not, everything they need to hold fast to whatever beliefs they want to hold fast to "as" truth.

This is why we have 45,000 different belief groups within Christianity, and 10,000 non-Christian belief groups. And Jesus says the vast masses of Christianity, the "Many? Mat. 7:13, 22-23 believing they are Christian are still headed for destruction, not life Mat. 7:14. Am I saying the Mormons who speak in tongues, and the different protestant groups that speak in tongues, and the Roman Catholic groups that speak in tongues are not getting these things from the Holy Spirit? No. 2Th. 2:11 I am stating ALL Faith comes from God.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: Who can know it?
​

Trusting our own hearts that our beliefs are truth is like choosing to get our doctrines and beliefs directly from another being who is a liar and a deceiver and is desperately wicked. And yes, regardless of beliefs, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Christian Science, all believe God lives in their hearts and is guiding them into all truth. Yet Jesus says the truth is almost none of those trusting in their heart they are true Christians is.

This is why almost all belief groups determine who loves truth and who believes the truth when it comes to their core beliefs by alignment with their own beliefs, and those of their own belief group. Yet, everyone always passes their own tests of aligning with their own beliefs. Everyone in the 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 different "Christian" belief groups knows they love truth and have the truth when it comes to their core beliefs. That's 2Th. 2:11 in action.

It's also why God says those using that standard have no understanding at all of truth or how to get to it. 2Co. 10:12 The standard to use is "Figuring out the ongoing Fruits of those who will be saved, and of the opposing group who will be lost, and evaluating the salvation of ourselves and others based on those ongoing fruits. Mat. 7:15-20 True Christians are "warned" by God to evaluate the salvation of themselves and others based on these two totally exclusive sets of Fruits. in that passage.

One fruit is obedience to 2Co. 13:5-6. It's in the present tense, so it's an ongoing habitual, never ceasing process. Also, those who aren't willing to keep on habitually doing so, those who stop, automatically fail thee test. Unfortunately, those evaluating based on beliefs cannot obey this command to keep on continuously evaluate the salvation of themselves and others as they are all evaluating based on alignment with their own beliefs, not fruits. 2Co. 10:12 "Yep. same beliefs as yesterday, same beliefs as last month, same beliefs as a decade ago, ..." Since they can't obey this command, and Paul sites the reason being they fail the test, in 2Co. 13:5 this makes it one of the fruits mentioned in Mat. 7:15

Men trust their own lying deceitful hearts. They trust their feelings, yet there is a way that seems right unto a man, the ends of which are the way of death. Everyone, in every belief group on the planet knows they, and those who believe as they do, both love truth and possess the truth.

Yet the bible commands true Christians to keep on continuously proving all things over an over again always holding fast to what is being proven good/true, and not to any of our beliefs. Those whose beliefs are set in stone have proved their beliefs true and are holding fast to them. One methodology allows everyone to die with their current beliefs intact, proving which side of 2Th. 2:10-13 they fall on whether they believe Jesus is their Lord, God and Savior or not, even if they have the exact same signs and wonders the true Christians of the first century exhibit. Mat. 7:21-22 but these are perishing 2Th. 2:10 and as such, they could never even see the true gospel, no matter how well it was shared, let alone believe in it if they did. 2Co. 4:3-4 (same word perishing)

The things it appears you are trusting in, seem to be the least trustworthy things in all creation. If you stop the ongoing process of proving all things over and over and over again, always holding fast to what is true, on any issue, you are disobedient to 1Th. 5:21 (Present tense) You love your beliefs. Your beliefs are unquestionable truths to you. This means you made the wrong "Choice" in 2Th. 2:10-13, that you will perish, and that you cannot see, let alone believe, the true gospel. 2Co. 4:3-4 Possessing ANY unquestionably true beliefs puts you, me, and everyone else, in this category.

A person who does not think God speaks to him from the intimacy of his own heart would agree with you that we have nothing to believe in outside the Bible.

Oh, I agree. God speaks to the Atheists, Agnostics, Moslems, Buddhists, Jehovah's Witnesses, absolutely everyone and He always gives every last one of them everything they need to hold fast to what they love. Everyone has truth. Just ask them. And yes, this is always confirmed by their own heart.

 

[EmethAlethia]

"What I like to call "The Silent God Theory" is the premise of your final question. It says "God does not speak to us today except through the Bible. If you want to know God's will, you must go find it in the Bible. If you want to obey God, then you must obey the Bible." The problem, of course, is that a person can't believe the Bible and believe that God is not actively involved in our lives, leading, guiding, directing, correcting, and comforting us from the intimacy of our own hearts."

God speaks to absolutely everyone today. Almost all are hearing from Him in the form of 2Th. 2:11, as we know all who die as non-Christians, and almost all who die believing they were Christians, are still lost and headed for hell, Mat. 7:13-14, 21-22 we know almost all people, "Christian" or not, are hearing exactly what they want to hear. 2Th. 2:11

"I believe you are conflating God and the Bible. You have admitted as much. I am saying that you are wrong on several fronts. First, the Bible is not God."

I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me. Father sanctify them with Thy truth. Thy word is truth.​

While I am not making the bible the 4th person of the trinity, there is no "Knowledge" of God apart from scripture and what He revealed by general revelation Rom 1:19-21 The bible is not God, but it is exhaled by God Himself. It is the ONLY thing guaranteed profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.

God is not silent at all. The Spirit is guiding absolutely everyone to the beliefs they love and desire. 2Th. 2:11

"His voice can be trusted because He is the most trustworthy person in existence. These errors are not independent, but interdependent. If our reality were to include no God or a slient God, then your propositions would make perfect sense. We would need the Bible to guide us into all truth because we would not have Him. But that is not the paradigm that we are operating under."

I can't think of a person in the 5,000 different belief groups within Christianity, all believe God is 100% trustworthy in verifying their core beliefs as truth, and all opposing beliefs to be lies. You believe His voice can be trusted? Trusted to do what? Get you confirmation that whatever beliefs you choose to love are truth? Absolutely. He can be trusted to get Atheists everything they need, Moslems everything they need, absolutely.

Everyone gets everything they need "From God" to hold fast to their beliefs "as" truth. 2Th. 2:10-12 But can anyone trust the answers? How do you know whether or not 2Th. 2:11 is what you are receiving from Him or not? According to scripture almost all are in that category, and not a single one of them will have a clue till the day of judgment. Mat. 7:21-21

While the people in the 10,000 non-Christian belief groups might not even believe in a God, believe they love truth and have come to a knowledge of the truth all the same.

Like I said, I, like you, believe the Holy Spirit is guiding absolutely everyone in the world to the faith they want. You believe God is not silent at all. I agree 100%. He's helping all of us get everything we need to get to, and be able to hold fast to, whatever it is we choose to love... the truth or what we believe. But we also know almost everyone makes the wrong choice. 2Th. 2:10-13 (11)

 

[EmethAlethia]

"The Spirit of God teaches us concerning all things:

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (1 Jn 2:26–27)

God inspired John to write these things to help us grasp the truth that God's Spirit is teaching us. God wants us to be aware that He lives in our hearts and that He is personally is teaching us the things He wants us to know. When we grasp that concept, and when we realize that God is actively guiding our understanding as John describes, we don't look back and give credit to the Scriptures for placing God into our hearts. But we rejoice in the role the Scriptures played in helping us to understand what God is doing in our lives."

God is actively guiding the understanding of the lost, including the vast masses of lost "Christians" teaching them lies are truth and the truth is lies.

10,000 lost non-Christian groups all guided by the Holy Spirit into believing lies are truth and the truth is lies. All "perishing" unless their "Choice" in 2Th. 2:10-13 changes. All completely unable to see the true gospel, let alone believe it. 2Co. 4:3-4. (Same word perishing as in 2Th. 2:10)

45,000 different Christian belief groups, all with different and conflicting core beliefs or they'd be in the same group, ... and I bet there probably isn't a single one who would disagree with you. The Holy Spirit is guiding every last one of the people in every last one of those belief groups to the truth. You are correct absolutely every person in Christianity loves truth and believes the truth. Not a one believes a lie. Just ask them. Yes, they are all listening to a God who is actively playing a part in their lives, guiding them. I agree.

Do I trust what I believe "as" truth? Not for a single second. I know better. Do I obey God's command to keep on continuously proving all things always holding fast to what is being proven good/true, and never holding fast to any beliefs? 1Th. 5:21 Absolutely.

Do I keep on trying to accurately dissect the meaning of everything that "might" apply to every topic at hand with a target to get to the exact meaning of every word? Absolutely. Not doing so results in standing ashamed before God one day.

Do I apply logic and reason, thinking every ramification of every belief or set of beliefs through to make sure everything makes complete logical and reasonable sense, knowing any ramification not making complete sense proves my beliefs wrong, after gathering every bible passage and biblical situation that might apply first? Absolutely. (In 70 out of 82 places where Jesus corrected incorrect beliefs, responses, ... He used strictly logic and reason, thinking every ramification of their beliefs through. The other 12 He still used logic and reason, but He also used bible passages and situations HIs opponents missed or didn't want to consider.

The lost "Christians" all trust the Holy Spirit to be doing "for" them what God commands true Christians to be doing for and by themselves. They trust God to get them a job, while sitting at home in front of the T.V.. Yes, they are all trusting the Holy Spirit is getting them to the truth. The Mormons speak in tongues, many protestant groups speak in tongues, Roman Catholics speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit validates all beliefs. 2Th. 2:11

I can't think of anyone, in any "Christian" belief group who would disagree with you. And I agree with you. The Holy Spirit is working with absolutely everyone in this world. And, as a result of His express working in each one of them, absolutely everyone knows they love truth and have the truth. And those believing they are "Christians" all give Him the credit for it, and rightfully so. That said, almost all believe lies are truth and the truth is lies, according to the scriptures.

While all within "Christianity" would agree with you that the Holy Spirit is revealing truth to them and their belief group. There's a problem. Would you agree the Holy Spirit is getting the Mormons to the truth? Jehovah's Witnesses? How about Roman Catholics? ... While everyone agrees the Holy Spirit is guiding them into truth, all the opponents to your beliefs believe you are being guided completely incorrectly, if at all. Same as you believe of them.

The truth, according to scripture, is that you, me, and everyone else, is believing lies are truth and the truth is lies. Almost all non-Christians right now, will die as non-Christians, they are lost and headed for hell. That's more than 2/3 of the earth's population. Almost all people believing they are "Christians" are lost and headed for hell (Mat. 7:13-14, 21-22) All receive help from the Holy Spirit to hold fast to what the "want to believe" "as" truth, if they don't choose to receive a love of the truth.

Almost all those believing they are true "Christians", those who fail the ongoing fruits tests, are headed for destruction and not life. Not a single one will never have a clue till they stand in judgment before Him. But then it's too late. Mat. 7:21-22 Do they believe the Holy Spirit is guiding them into all truth? Absolutely. But they do not understand or believe what God has to say in those other passages that apply to the topic. Every one of them, in absolutely all the different belief groups has everything they need.

1.) They have everything they need to prove their beliefs true.

2.) They have everything they need to prove all opposing beliefs false.

3.) Since their beliefs = truth, the only correct interpretations of all "valid
data must align with their own beliefs, or at least not negate them.

4.) All data that might seem to contradict is ignored or explained away, it was written by evil monks, it meant something else, ...

Hopefully what I said above helps fill in the gaps.

Oh, it filled in the gaps alright. If we are true Christians, or are on our way to becoming one, and we possess all the correct ongoing Fruits of those who will become true Christians, and we possess none of the wrong ones, then yes, we can trust the Holy Spirit to get us to truth. But ... most who trust have absolutely no reason to do so.

 

[GWH]

"The Spirit of God teaches us concerning all things:

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (1 Jn 2:26–27)

God inspired John to write these things to help us grasp the truth that God's Spirit is teaching us. God wants us to be aware that He lives in our hearts and that He is personally is teaching us the things He wants us to know. When we grasp that concept, and when we realize that God is actively guiding our understanding as John describes, we don't look back and give credit to the Scriptures for placing God into our hearts. But we rejoice in the role the Scriptures played in helping us to understand what God is doing in our lives."

God is actively guiding the understanding of the lost, including the vast masses of lost "Christians" teaching them lies are truth and the truth is lies.

10,000 lost non-Christian groups all guided by the Holy Spirit into believing lies are truth and the truth is lies. All "perishing" unless their "Choice" in 2Th. 2:10-13 changes. All completely unable to see the true gospel, let alone believe it. 2Co. 4:3-4. (Same word perishing as in 2Th. 2:10)

45,000 different Christian belief groups, all with different and conflicting core beliefs or they'd be in the same group, ... and I bet there probably isn't a single one who would disagree with you. The Holy Spirit is guiding every last one of the people in every last one of those belief groups to the truth. You are correct absolutely every person in Christianity loves truth and believes the truth. Not a one believes a lie. Just ask them. Yes, they are all listening to a God who is actively playing a part in their lives, guiding them. I agree.

Do I trust what I believe "as" truth? Not for a single second. I know better. Do I obey God's command to keep on continuously proving all things always holding fast to what is being proven good/true, and never holding fast to any beliefs? 1Th. 5:21 Absolutely.

Do I keep on trying to accurately dissect the meaning of everything that "might" apply to every topic at hand with a target to get to the exact meaning of every word? Absolutely. Not doing so results in standing ashamed before God one day.

Do I apply logic and reason, thinking every ramification of every belief or set of beliefs through to make sure everything makes complete logical and reasonable sense, knowing any ramification not making complete sense proves my beliefs wrong, after gathering every bible passage and biblical situation that might apply first? Absolutely. (In 70 out of 82 places where Jesus corrected incorrect beliefs, responses, ... He used strictly logic and reason, thinking every ramification of their beliefs through. The other 12 He still used logic and reason, but He also used bible passages and situations HIs opponents missed or didn't want to consider.

The lost "Christians" all trust the Holy Spirit to be doing "for" them what God commands true Christians to be doing for and by themselves. They trust God to get them a job, while sitting at home in front of the T.V.. Yes, they are all trusting the Holy Spirit is getting them to the truth. The Mormons speak in tongues, many protestant groups speak in tongues, Roman Catholics speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit validates all beliefs. 2Th. 2:11

I can't think of anyone, in any "Christian" belief group who would disagree with you. And I agree with you. The Holy Spirit is working with absolutely everyone in this world. And, as a result of His express working in each one of them, absolutely everyone knows they love truth and have the truth. And those believing they are "Christians" all give Him the credit for it, and rightfully so. That said, almost all believe lies are truth and the truth is lies, according to the scriptures.

While all within "Christianity" would agree with you that the Holy Spirit is revealing truth to them and their belief group. There's a problem. Would you agree the Holy Spirit is getting the Mormons to the truth? Jehovah's Witnesses? How about Roman Catholics? ... While everyone agrees the Holy Spirit is guiding them into truth, all the opponents to your beliefs believe you are being guided completely incorrectly, if at all. Same as you believe of them.

The truth, according to scripture, is that you, me, and everyone else, is believing lies are truth and the truth is lies. Almost all non-Christians right now, will die as non-Christians, they are lost and headed for hell. That's more than 2/3 of the earth's population. Almost all people believing they are "Christians" are lost and headed for hell (Mat. 7:13-14, 21-22) All receive help from the Holy Spirit to hold fast to what the "want to believe" "as" truth, if they don't choose to receive a love of the truth.

Almost all those believing they are true "Christians", those who fail the ongoing fruits tests, are headed for destruction and not life. Not a single one will never have a clue till they stand in judgment before Him. But then it's too late. Mat. 7:21-22 Do they believe the Holy Spirit is guiding them into all truth? Absolutely. But they do not understand or believe what God has to say in those other passages that apply to the topic. Every one of them, in absolutely all the different belief groups has everything they need.

1.) They have everything they need to prove their beliefs true.

2.) They have everything they need to prove all opposing beliefs false.

3.) Since their beliefs = truth, the only correct interpretations of all "valid
data must align with their own beliefs, or at least not negate them.

4.) All data that might seem to contradict is ignored or explained away, it was written by evil monks, it meant something else, ...

Hopefully what I said above helps fill in the gaps.

Oh, it filled in the gaps alright. If we are true Christians, or are on our way to becoming one, and we possess all the correct ongoing Fruits of those who will become true Christians, and we possess none of the wrong ones, then yes, we can trust the Holy Spirit to get us to truth. But ... most who trust have absolutely no reason to do so.

There is this gap in your reasoning: Yes, everyone has everything they need to prove their beliefs true or false
[which are truth and the image-of-God ability to love truth aka MFW] (2Thes. 2:10).

That truth fills the [gap], does it not?

 

[EmethAlethia]

There is this gap in your reasoning: Yes, everyone has everything they need to prove their beliefs true or false
[which are truth and the image-of-God ability to love truth aka MFW] (2Thes. 2:10).

That truth fills the [gap], does it not?

If we receive a love of the truth and thus possess the ongoing fruits of those who are doing absolutely everything they can to discover their incorrect beliefs and alter them to fit what is being proven good/true, THEN, and only THEN is God seeking you and will guide you into the truth ... eventually ... But ONLY if you never stop. The moment ANY belief becomes an unquestionable truth, that process ended, and you receive everything you need from God Himself to keep on believing the belief you love more than truth. But that guarantees you are believing lies.

Am I guaranteed to have the faith that results in salvation at this exact moment? Nope. Nor is anyone else. I am only guaranteed to get there ... eventually ... if I never stop. "If" the ongoing "fruits" are there, the likelihood of having the correct base beliefs resulting in salvation is much greater. And if I never stop, it is guaranteed by God. That's what I see.

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

My goal in this thread is to discuss how we can answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity among his followers that is found in John 17:20-23.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Jesus' prayer starts way before John 17:20 so why not consider all the Lord is saying in His prayer???

John 17:1 is where Jesus starts His prayer as He lifted up His eyes to heaven and began speaking to the Father in prayer:

Starting in John 17:6 and John 17:8 Jesus is speaking in His prayer how He has given His followers God's Word, and in John 17:14 Jesus says:

I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

In John 17:17 Jesus says "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth"

The foundation of unity in the Body of Christ is the Truth of God's Word and those who are not walking and abiding in the Truth of God's Word will never ever be in unity with the Body of Christ as one cannot even be a Christian without abiding in the Truth of God's Word.

God and His Word cannot be separated. If one rejects what God has said, then they are rejecting God and are walking with the devil as they are an anti-christ.

Now in modern times we see the so called ecumenical movement which is a movement started by the devil to deceive the masses in to believing that all religions lead to the same God and all of mankind must accept all other religions which is the start of the coming one world religion.

So beware of so called teachings on "unity" because theses people have already departed from the Truth of God's Word failing to follow the Doctrine of Christ as taught in the New Testament meaning the unity they subscribe to includes accepting those claiming to be Christians who teach doctrine not taught by Jesus or His Apostles as laid out in the Word of God.

 

[GWH]

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Jesus' prayer starts way before John 17:20 so why not consider all the Lord is saying in His prayer???

John 17:1 is where Jesus starts His prayer as He lifted up His eyes to heaven and began speaking to the Father in prayer:

Starting in John 17:6 and John 17:8 Jesus is speaking in His prayer how He has given His followers God's Word, and in John 17:14 Jesus says:

I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

In John 17:17 Jesus says "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth"

The foundation of unity in the Body of Christ is the Truth of God's Word and those who are not walking and abiding in the Truth of God's Word will never ever be in unity with the Body of Christ as one cannot even be a Christian without abiding in the Truth of God's Word.

God and His Word cannot be separated. If one rejects what God has said, then they are rejecting God and are walking with the devil as they are an anti-christ.

Now in modern times we see the so called ecumenical movement which is a movement started by the devil to deceive the masses in to believing that all religions lead to the same God and all of mankind must accept all other religions which is the start of the coming one world religion.

So beware of so called teachings on "unity" because theses people have already departed from the Truth of God's Word failing to follow the Doctrine of Christ as taught in the New Testament meaning the unity they subscribe to includes accepting those claiming to be Christians who teach doctrine not taught by Jesus or His Apostles as laid out in the Word of God.

I agree completely. Thanks for sharing.
That is why I am glad my initials are GW.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

The things it appears you are trusting in, seem to be the least trustworthy things in all creation. If you stop the ongoing process of proving all things over and over and over again, always holding fast to what is true, on any issue, you are disobedient to 1Th. 5:21 (Present tense) You love your beliefs. Your beliefs are unquestionable truths to you. This means you made the wrong "Choice" in 2Th. 2:10-13, that you will perish, and that you cannot see, let alone believe, the true gospel. 2Co. 4:3-4 Possessing ANY unquestionably true beliefs puts you, me, and everyone else, in this category.

Oh, I agree. God speaks to the Atheists, Agnostics, Moslems, Buddhists, Jehovah's Witnesses, absolutely everyone and He always gives every last one of them everything they need to hold fast to what they love. Everyone has truth. Just ask them. And yes, this is always confirmed by their own heart.

I see a great deal of irony here. You're pushback against trusting the Spirit of God as He leads, guides, directs, corrects, and comforts us from the intimacy of our own hearts is that what I am proposing to trust in is the "least trustworthy" thing in all creation. And this is in spite of the fact that you cling to the Bible and cite verses that support your contention while at the same time refusing to believe the Bible when it says He is the most trustworthy person inside and outside creation and that walking in lock step with the Spirit is the only way to live a successful Christian life.

 

[GWH]

I see a great deal of irony here. You're pushback against trusting the Spirit of God as He leads, guides, directs, corrects, and comforts us from the intimacy of our own hearts is that what I am proposing to trust in is the "least trustworthy" thing in all creation. And this is in spite of the fact that you cling to the Bible and cite verses that support your contention while at the same time refusing to believe the Bible when it says He is the most trustworthy person inside and outside creation and that walking in lock step with the Spirit is the only way to live a successful Christian life.

I have noticed similar irony because of pushback against applications of 2Thes. 2:10, to which verse he pointed me recently.
Hopefully he will soon practice the willingness to amend beliefs that he preaches.

 

[EmethAlethia]

I see a great deal of irony here. You're pushback against trusting the Spirit of God as He leads, guides, directs, corrects, and comforts us from the intimacy of our own hearts is that what I am proposing to trust in is the "least trustworthy" thing in all creation. And this is in spite of the fact that you cling to the Bible and cite verses that support your contention while at the same time refusing to believe the Bible when it says He is the most trustworthy person inside and outside creation and that walking in lock step with the Spirit is the only way to live a successful Christian life.

Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, Christian Science, ... all the vast masses of people in the 45,000 different Christian belief groups, all trust that the Holy Spirit is guiding every last one of them into truth. Yet Jesus says the vast masses of these believe lies are truth and the truth is lies. They are the "Many" on the broad path leading to destruction who will not see life. "Few" out of the vast masses are actually saved. Am I saying that the Holy Spirit is not working in them, that He isn't guiding them into what they believe? Absolutely not. I guarantee the vehemence of their assurance of the correctness of their beliefs God as its source. 2Th. 2:11 All who die as non-Christians, are lost. Almost all who believe they are Christians are lost. The vast majority of the people in this world 99.9% are receiving the Holy Spirits assistance, not in getting "to" truth "from" lies, but to hold fast to lies as truth and the truth to be lies.

It is only those who are dedicated to getting from erroneous beliefs, to truth, who also possess the ongoing habitual fruits resulting from loving truth and not their beliefs, who will keep on doing those things till the day they die, who are guaranteed by God to get "to" truth ... eventually, and to be saved ... eventually. Everyone else gets whatever they need, from God, to hold fast to the beliefs they love "as" truth.

 

[GWH]

Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, Christian Science, ... all the vast masses of people in the 45,000 different Christian belief groups, all trust that the Holy Spirit is guiding every last one of them into truth. Yet Jesus says the vast masses of these believe lies are truth and the truth is lies. They are the "Many" on the broad path leading to destruction who will not see life. "Few" out of the vast masses are actually saved. Am I saying that the Holy Spirit is not working in them, that He isn't guiding them into what they believe? Absolutely not. I guarantee the vehemence of their assurance of the correctness of their beliefs God as its source. 2Th. 2:11 All who die as non-Christians, are lost. Almost all who believe they are Christians are lost. The vast majority of the people in this world 99.9% are receiving the Holy Spirits assistance, not in getting "to" truth "from" lies, but to hold fast to lies as truth and the truth to be lies.

It is only those who are dedicated to getting from erroneous beliefs, to truth, who also possess the ongoing habitual fruits resulting from loving truth and not their beliefs, who will keep on doing those things till the day they die, who are guaranteed by God to get "to" truth ... eventually, and to be saved ... eventually. Everyone else gets whatever they need, from God, to hold fast to the beliefs they love "as" truth.

I agree. The font of faith is love/desire for truth, which is the way that leads to the Way/Gospel/Christ,
even though only foreshadowed or proto-gospel for those who never have the opportunity to learn NT revelation, which teaches that God loves and wants to save everyone (1Tim. 2:3-4), implying that everyone is enabled to exercise MFW by cooperating with His plan of salvation (John 3;16, Rom. 3:21-5:10), even the genrev version (Rom. 1:20). Denying this truth results in the tulip heresy that teaches God loves/favors only a few, which perverts the Gospel (Gal. 1:6-9, 2:16).

 

[GWH]

The font of saving faith is love/desire for truth, which is the way that leads to the Way/Gospel/Christ,
but the font of atheism and heresy is love of lies, which leads to murder and the way to hell (2Thes. 10:10-13).

Adam and Eve used God's enabling of faith wrongly by choosing to ignore His truth and believe the lie, which resulted in spiritual death or separation from fellowship with God's Holy Spirit, but we can discern the possibility of sinners being saved by the shedding of blood to cover their nakedness, which foreshadowed Christ's atonement.

The New Testament revealed that God loves and wants to save everyone (1Tim. 2:3-4), implying that even those who had no opportunity to learn Scripture could perceive how to satisfy His condition for salvation via creation and conscience aka general revelation or the proto-gospel (Rom. 1:20).

Denying this truth implies God loves/favors only a few who happen to hear preaching of the New Testament,
which atheists may cite as an excuse for rejecting the real Gospel of an all-loving God.

 

[GWH]

A biblical hermeneutic or parameters for interpreting the Bible might well begin with the instruction of Paul (1Thes. 5:21) to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” A truthseeker is guided by the question: What is most true or closest to the truth, especially the Truth of God’s Word (2Thes. 2:10)?

The method for discerning truth employs subjective logic that is made as objective as possible by learning from Scriptural and other truthseekers. Two NT teachings may be deemed key points from which to triangulate or use to guide an interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements.

First, God loves and wants to save everyone. Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, heretics).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). God does not show favoritism (Rom. 2:9-13&16, Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (Psa. 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.”

 

[GWH]

Testing and harmonizing Scripture correctly necessitates using logic and semantics, including the following:

1. Both-and logic instead of only either-or. Sometimes the truth involves choosing one or the other of a binary option,
such as in Deut. 30:19, but sometimes it requires combining two truths, such as God is omnipotent (Rom. 9:18-29) and
God is omniloving (1Tim. 2:3-4) and just (Rom. 3:3-6, 21-26, 4:5, 5:1, 9:14).

2. Understanding that saving faith frequently is expressed/indicated by use of the present progressive/persevering tense,
so verses speaking of believers having eternal life such as John 10:28 assume persevering faith or desire to cooperate with
God's Word/Holy Spirit/Love (Rom.5:5) rather than to commit apostasy, which is blasphemy (Heb. 6:4-6).

3. Exercising discernment by recognizing implication and generalization instead of Scripture to state everything explicitly.
For example, just because it is stated that Jesus prayed for his present and future disciples in John 17:9&20 does not imply
that Jesus did not love everyone in the world and pray for them to be evangelized by his disciples (John 3:16, Matt. 28:19-20).

4. Loving truth that motivates willingness to learn new truth and amend previous wrong understanding (2Thes. 2:10),
especially heresy that corrupts the Gospel and demeans divine omnilove (1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14,
Eph. 3:17b-19, EPH 5:2, 1TM 2:3-4) and justness (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3).

Are there other types of divine/loving logic that right hermeneutics requires/includes?

 

[Roger316]

My goal in this thread is to discuss how we can answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity among his followers that is found in John 17:20-23.
It seems to me that a lot of chat by Christians tends to ignore Jesus' concern, but for those who share it the question is how to achieve it, and the answer involves agreeing on one interpretation of Scripture.

Thus, I would like to begin by sharing a way of interpreting Scripture that is based on the instruction of Paul in 1THS 5:21 to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” As I have been seeking ultimate truth and testing what I have learned, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements, but before I share them I would like to ask y'all to tell which two most guide your thinking and chatting.

Thanks and love in Christ (LIC)

Thanks for the invitation to this thread. And although you started the thread a couple of years ago, I think I can answer your two questions without retracing previous ground.

Two basic hermeneutical principles:
A. Context.

a. Author​

b. Audience​

c. Background material - history, culture​

d. Subject matter​

e. Argument - structure, premise, conclusion​

f. Idiomatic expressions and words.​

B. Textual Disconance.

a. Weird-sounding word construction​

b. Non-sequitur​

c. Run-on Sentences.​

I could explain more fully if needed.

 

[GWH]

Thanks for the invitation to this thread. And although you started the thread a couple of years ago, I think I can answer your two questions without retracing previous ground.

Two basic hermeneutical principles:
A. Context.

a. Author​

b. Audience​

c. Background material - history, culture​

d. Subject matter​

e. Argument - structure, premise, conclusion​

f. Idiomatic expressions and words.​

B. Textual Disconance.

a. Weird-sounding word construction​

b. Non-sequitur​

c. Run-on Sentences.​

I could explain more fully if needed.

That seems good. Would you want to apply these principles and what I listed in #796 to some problematic passages?

 

[Roger316]

That seems good. Would you want to apply these principles and what I listed in #796 to some problematic passages?

I don't have time to deal with them all, but I can make a general observation about your list. I noticed that many of your citations are single verses. The first responsibility in exegesis is to let a verse speak from within its immediate context. When someone cites a single verse, we cannot begin by importing ideas from elsewhere; we begin by asking what the author is actually doing at that moment in the argument. What is the subject he is addressing? What is the emphasis he is pressing? Only after we have located the verse inside its paragraph, its flow of thought, and its rhetorical purpose can we responsibly move outward to larger canonical connections. Good interpretation starts with the author’s own voice before it considers anyone else’s.

 

[CS1]

My goal in this thread is to discuss how we can answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity among his followers that is found in John 17:20-23.
It seems to me that a lot of chat by Christians tends to ignore Jesus' concern, but for those who share it the question is how to achieve it, and the answer involves agreeing on one interpretation of Scripture.

Thus, I would like to begin by sharing a way of interpreting Scripture that is based on the instruction of Paul in 1THS 5:21 to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” As I have been seeking ultimate truth and testing what I have learned, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements, but before I share them I would like to ask y'all to tell which two most guide your thinking and chatting.

Thanks and love in Christ (LIC)

any method used to interpret the word of God without a personal relationship with Christ, that don't Place Christ as the Supreme Authority on which all scriptures are built on, and help of the Holy Spirit, will never come to understand the word of God.

In the context of Orthodox Christianity, we do agree on all Essentials of the word of God that have been established as a normative with Genisis to Rev.

John 14: 6 Jesus is speaking what is an imperative.

Jesus said : I am the way. the truth, and the Life. No one goes to the Father but through Him.

the Greek says :
I AM the Hodos , the Alētheia and the Zōē

The Greek it is Jesus saying I am the Only way , The Only truth, and the Only Eternal life.

Jesu is saying I am not a way among many, "I am the only way." Jesus is not saying I am a truth among many truth's, "I AM only Truth."

Jesus is saying I AM not a life among many lives "I AM the Only Enteral Life."

There is no Other Way, Truth, or Life to MY FATHER but by ME!

Please send 19.95 to CS1 Po Box: Read your Bible. Grant rapids MNN. JN316
J/k send to CC