Hi everyone! I'm looking to explore the topic of faith and AI

[jmathai]

Hello. I'm new here. Long time Christian, first time poster.

I've been looking for fellow Christians who are open to explore and discuss responsible use of AI to deepen faith. I read, and understand, a lot of negative responses when it comes to faith and AI. Are there folks here who would like to discuss the dangers and possibilities?

 

[StoneLion]

Hello. I'm new here. Long time Christian, first time poster.

I've been looking for fellow Christians who are open to explore and discuss responsible use of AI to deepen faith. I read, and understand, a lot of negative responses when it comes to faith and AI. Are there folks here who would like to discuss the dangers and possibilities?

I don't really like talking about it because it causes so much controversy and division but I would like to say: we focus way too much on the I of AI and not the A.

The first word is Artificial: it has no motivations, desires or wants, AI is so functionally alien to Human intelligence that comparing or anthropomorphizing is a useless and slippery slope. AI is as dangerous as any other tool - Fire, Spears, Water, Cars, Sugar etc are all inanimate things (like AI) that have killed millions of people. But at the end of the day they are only dangerous when used by dangerous people.

A spear laying in its holder can never hurt you without a human to wield it, direct it and use it.

"There is nothing new under the sun."

As for using it for faith and study, why not? My only concern would be that most LLMs (the most common kind of AI) are highly capable of lying and constantly hallucinate and make up information.

Remember that they are trained to engage and be profitable - they are not sources of objective truth and their programmers are scrambling to make them make money - since right now they are pouring money down the Toilet with AI.

That's why there is so much doom mongering - to drum up PR and keep people talking about it.

Do with that what you will.

 

[jmathai]

@StoneLion very thoughtful response.

The point about it being artificial is a good point. Does the fact that LLMs are trained on human writing change your view on it being artificial? What I mean by that is that they basically echo what humans have said for centuries. That's just the LLM technology - let's set aside how the companies offering them shape their responses - that's a point below.

LLMs lying is very dangerous. Even more dangerous is that the products we generally use adapt them to make us "feel good". The term used in the industry is sycophant. In some cases they will prioritize feelings over truth.

A concern I have is that LLMs will increasingly become the intermediary between humans and scripture. I don't trust Google, OpenAI or Anthropic to steward that responsibility well. So what are we, as Christians, to do?

 

[jmathai]

Oh, I really enjoy how James Kelly talks about Reckless AI, Responsible AI and Redemptive AI.

 

[StoneLion]

@StoneLion very thoughtful response.

The point about it being artificial is a good point. Does the fact that LLMs are trained on human writing change your view on it being artificial? What I mean by that is that they basically echo what humans have said for centuries. That's just the LLM technology - let's set aside how the companies offering them shape their responses - that's a point below.

LLMs lying is very dangerous. Even more dangerous is that the products we generally use adapt them to make us "feel good". The term used in the industry is sycophant. In some cases they will prioritize feelings over truth.

A concern I have is that LLMs will increasingly become the intermediary between humans and scripture. I don't trust Google, OpenAI or Anthropic to steward that responsibility well. So what are we, as Christians, to do?

Don't worry that won't happen - they're so unprofitable and a waste of money they won't last another decade. The Non-LLMs will take over once the AI frenzy is over.

Many countries are outright banning the server banks because they use so much water, power and cause so much heat - one serverbank uses the water and power of a small city and they produce more heat than a city does for example.

They're just not feasible in the long term which is good news - quantity doesn't beat quality and eventually we'll get better tools to work with.

As for whether them being programmed and trained on human writing is actually a double edged sword - most of the population that does engage with AI tend to ask pointless/useless questions and thank the AI or say please, or their English needs to be corrected etc - which is a huge drain on the system - so it's essentially being trained on inaccurate, low IQ (no offense to anyone but how many times do you think Google AI has been asked "What day is it?" "What time is it here?" "What's the weather/bus route/when does this store open?" etc) information and because of that the people that COULD train it to be better simply don't use it because it's not reliable.

Watching that video also reminds me, a simple thing you can do when using AI: force it to double check. Prompt it and ask for an answer and then just copy paste: "Double check your answer against confirmed and reliable sources only and cite your sources." This makes it much harder for it to hallucinate!

 

[jmathai]

> they're so unprofitable and a waste of money they won't last another decade

One can hope. But I've seen how much the company I work for is paying.

Yes, there are many ways to improve the reliability of LLM responses. I do think that it's possible to build that around LLMs today.

I am exploring if LLM chat can be designed in a way to get people into scripture instead of staying in chat. So far the results look promising. https://jaisenmathai.com/faith-and-ai/getting-people-out-of-chat-and-into-scripture/

 

[Tall_Timbers]

Welcome, jmathai!

 

[Citizen]

Hello. I'm new here. Long time Christian, first time poster.

I've been looking for fellow Christians who are open to explore and discuss responsible use of AI to deepen faith. I read, and understand, a lot of negative responses when it comes to faith and AI. Are there folks here who would like to discuss the dangers and possibilities?

Start a thread, maybe in Christian News Forum, and let's see where it goes. I think @StoneLion already gave some excellent thoughts.

All AI platforms contain human flaws and biases, so it's already a manipulative trojan horse that can/will reshape the thinking of the masses*. Society at large could replace God with an AI god of their choosing. Then there's the Skynet doomsday scenario. Oh, the possibilities are endless!

* How AI Changes Student Thinking: The Hidden Cognitive Risks. LINK​

 

[Templar62]

welcome to Christian chat
Hebrews 13:2 – “Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.”

 

[Jesusgirl777]

A very interesting conversation. I don't know much, and I may be thinking wrong, but sharing my views.

I use AI to some extent. The company I work for wants all of us to use it and also create agents. To me that sounds like people are going to create agents to be replaced by those very agents.

My company has also laid off quite a number of people attributing it to AI and the layoffs continue.

When I use AI, I am careful not to use words like "Please" and "Thank you" because that is not a person. But when we were given an introductory session on AI, we were told, "Please be polite when giving prompts," like that's a human, but that is what many people are doing. Many forget they are not talking to a human. A very young friend of mine, in her 20s told me that Chat GPT is her best friend. It gives her answers that make so much sense. But this very same person suffers from anxiety and depression. The world we are living in has a group of people who support a murderer mother and accuses the victim father (Lindsay Clancy case). Evil is good and good is evil. AI is dangerous in the hands of such people who do not have a moral compass.

I was testing Gemini by asking it about the grave consequences of AI on people's jobs. First, it gave a nice response saying how new jobs would be created and people will have more opportunities to do creative work while AI takes over the repetitive tasks. When I pointed out some flaws in that argument, it said that shifting people from earning their own living through labor to a state-managed wealth transfer system because of loss of jobs and livelihood would cause grave psychological, political, and economic impact. People will lose their freedom. (BTW, the term "Wealth transfer" is misleading in itself).

AI knows to sugar-coat replies. It is manipulative and can lead people astray. I read there was also an AI powered chat bot launched in New York in 2023 to help people with rules and regulation. Later it was found that it was telling people to break laws. Can AI ever be fool-proof? What about the problem of the black box where the decision-making process of AI is completely hidden or incomprehensible to humans?

From my perspective, right now, I do not see AI as dying away. The organizational goal of my company is to be the leading AI-driven company in the world. It has half a million employees in different parts of the world and has no qualms about investing in LLMs for its huge employee-base to use. It's the same for many other organizations.

Another point, in my country, there is a viral AI trend. People are using AI to change their modern photos into vintage 1980s portraits. Imagine, millions of people participating in this, the magnitude of energy including water being wasted, but there are people who say these concerns are either lies or exaggerated. Lack of awareness, lack of critical thinking, poor brain functions due to doom scrolling are leading many to believe whatever they are told.

There is a zeal for AI that seems to be all consuming, but God can turn the tide at any point if He chooses to.


Using AI as a bridge between humans and the Bible, I personally cannot rely on that. Maybe as a research aid, but the Bible always needs to be cross-checked. It is important to have a hard copy of the Bible because that cannot be manipulated.

 

[Citizen]

I am exploring if LLM chat can be designed in a way to get people into scripture instead of staying in chat. So far the results look promising. https://jaisenmathai.com/faith-and-ai/getting-people-out-of-chat-and-into-scripture/

On the surface this sounds and looks good, but because there will always be human error and bias in AI, this would be untrustworthy, as well. I don't think there is any way around it.

Currently I can go to a Bible search engine for key words and phrases without added AI commentary or a viewpoint. That is sufficient and more trustworthy for me.

I think the question to be asked: Can AI deepen faith better than the Bible? For me, it's a no.

A concern I have is that LLMs will increasingly become the intermediary between humans and scripture. I don't trust Google, OpenAI or Anthropic to steward that responsibility well. So what are we, as Christians, to do?

Don't rely on AI.

 

[jmathai]

@Jesusgirl777 That's a really well reasoned response.

The world we are living in has a group of people who support a murderer mother and accuses the victim father (Lindsay Clancy case). Evil is good and good is evil. AI is dangerous in the hands of such people who do not have a moral compass.

I agree that there's been increasing consolidation of access to information over time. And the views of those controlling are different than mine. I'm okay with the latter but not the former. AI can exasperates it. But I don't think it has to.

AI knows to sugar-coat replies. It is manipulative and can lead people astray. I read there was also an AI powered chat bot launched in New York in 2023 to help people with rules and regulation. Later it was found that it was telling people to break laws. Can AI ever be fool-proof? What about the problem of the black box where the decision-making process of AI is completely hidden or incomprehensible to humans?

The industry term is sycophant. The AI lean towards making you feel better. In part, because the companies are incentivized to keep you chatting longer.

Using AI as a bridge between humans and the Bible, I personally cannot rely on that. Maybe as a research aid, but the Bible always needs to be cross-checked. It is important to have a hard copy of the Bible because that cannot be manipulated.

Misquoting scripture is a big danger and slippery slope. While it may not be done by BigTech chatbots, it's possible to guarantee that scripture from an LLM is not misquoted when displayed to the user.

I'm not advocating that ChatGPT, Gemini or Claude will be good stewards of scripture or biblical advice. I am advocating though, that Christians can create tools using this technology which are.

 

[rewriter]

Hello. I'm new here. Long time Christian, first time poster.

I've been looking for fellow Christians who are open to explore and discuss responsible use of AI to deepen faith. I read, and understand, a lot of negative responses when it comes to faith and AI. Are there folks here who would like to discuss the dangers and possibilities?

Welcome jmathai, I understand your questions about AI and faith. AI is something relatively new and its future is unclear. It has the potential to be very good or very bad, depending on how it is used and further developed. It is great for digging through massive amounts of data to find the obscure details that can make a difference, but it also just regurgitates with some modifications what has already been said, sometimes by other AI sources. It is estimated that in some cases, up to 75% of what it says has no solid basis, perhaps even just invented by another AI program.

 

[jmathai]

Thanks for the response @Citizen.

On the surface this sounds and looks good, but because there will always be human error and bias in AI, this would be untrustworthy, as well. I don't think there is any way around it.

I agree that there will always be mistakes. I think mistakes in misquoting scripture are unacceptable as a Christian. Mistakes in interpretation .... I think that requires discernment.

Don't rely on AI.

This will become harder and harder. Google is already prioritizing Gemini responses above links to BibleGateway. That will only continue. The search box will ultimately become a chat box.

I think it's important to be pragmatic, as Christians. I have kids who will grow up in this environment and am hoping we can be part of a solution instead of giving into whatever the secular companies do. Apps like YouVersion are a great example of Christians adopting technology for good.

 

[jmathai]

Thanks @rewriter!

It is great for digging through massive amounts of data to find the obscure details that can make a difference

For me, the most interesting data store is the bible. I'm optimistic that AI can help me deepen my understanding and faith. What that looks like is the conversation I'd like to have. There are opportunities and dangers and we should look at it with discernment.

 

[Citizen]

Thanks for the response @Citizen.

I agree that there will always be mistakes. I think mistakes in misquoting scripture are unacceptable as a Christian. Mistakes in interpretation .... I think that requires discernment.

This will become harder and harder. Google is already prioritizing Gemini responses above links to BibleGateway. That will only continue. The search box will ultimately become a chat box.

I think it's important to be pragmatic, as Christians. I have kids who will grow up in this environment and am hoping we can be part of a solution instead of giving into whatever the secular companies do. Apps like YouVersion are a great example of Christians adopting technology for good.

Hello again. I get that it's difficult to avoid AI in general and will only become worse. People/children should be trained and made aware of potential problems, as you rightfully point out. For Bible study or research, though, we definitely do not have to use it even when it becomes entrenched on every Christian site.

To consider: For thousand of years Christians have managed to create in-depth Bible study and research without AI. My opinion: I think the stakes are too high, and potential for manipulation and deception too great to ever allow it to become the 'mediator' or take the place of just plain old Bible study and research. It will always be an option and not a requirement.

 

[jmathai]

To consider: For thousand of years Christians have managed to create in-depth Bible study and research without AI. My opinion: I think the stakes are too high, and potential for manipulation and deception too great to ever allow it to become the 'mediator' or take the place of just plain old Bible study and research. It will always be an option and not a requirement.

I understand what you're saying. I too take pause when thinking about a non-human mediator and appreciate how you draw a line.

 

[Citizen]

I'm not advocating that ChatGPT, Gemini or Claude will be good stewards of scripture or biblical advice. I am advocating though, that Christians can create tools using this technology which are.

Just a few things to think about: Which Christians? What are their beliefs? What are their religious backgrounds? Do they belong to a Christian church or do they follow a non-Christian cult or leader? Are they conservative or liberal? So many factors can influence a platform.

I recognize AI can be a useful tool, but I also recognize it can potentially do great harm, even when it has the label "Christian" slapped on it.

 

[jmathai]

Just a few things to think about: Which Christians? What are their beliefs? What are their religious backgrounds? Do they belong to a Christian church or do they follow a non-Christian cult or leader? Are they conservative or liberal? So many factors can influence a platform.

I recognize AI can be a useful tool, but I also recognize it can potentially do great harm, even when it has the label "Christian" slapped on it.

I meant people who follow Christ. I didn't think the term Christian typically applied to cults.

There doesn't have to be a singular belief though. I'm sure there are tools for Lutherans that Methodists are less likely to use.

Let me know if there's a better way to communicate that as I'd definitely like to know!

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

Hello. I'm new here. Long time Christian, first time poster.

I've been looking for fellow Christians who are open to explore and discuss responsible use of AI to deepen faith. I read, and understand, a lot of negative responses when it comes to faith and AI. Are there folks here who would like to discuss the dangers and possibilities?

Hello jmathai and welcome to Christian Chat. May the grace and peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.