Hillsong, Bethel and Elevation, not churches?

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I’m still scratching my head on this one. Wasn’t Islam started in the 7th century, meaning New Testament times?

It was yes but they CLAIM to be descendants of Abraham and Ishmael. Mohammed or "The Prophet" claimed his Satanic revelations were from Gabriel. (Jibril). There is a false tradition that Abraham even travelled to Mecca. Islam is a twisted patchwork of false religious claims and satanic inspiration. It isn't even clear that Mohammed is "The Prophet" who inspired all the confused babble that makes up the Koran.

But the god Allah can be identified as an impostor. It's good to hear that many Christians are objecting to this "multicultural" deception.

 

[oyster67]

In the end we will see that there is only one true Church. All denominations have their flaws.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Was difficult to watch the entire interview but I made it through. I don’t even know where to start but it seems this fella has a higher view of himself, his colleagues and his “church” than God and scripture.

I agree...

 

[EliBeth]

@NOV25, @7seasrekeyed, @Rosemaryx thank you all for your responses. Please do forgive me if I am digressing too far from the original posting. But I have had reoccurring questions regarding that video and I would really appreciate other believers' perspectives.

I just happened upon that show one day several months back. I was not familiar with Elijah Streams, nor am I now. The subject of Bethel I found interesting though. As I listened and watched, I became disturbed. Mr. Silk's demeanor disturbed me for one thing. But as he talked about the approach he took toward the members' fornication I really began to have questions... God is for reconciliation, yes. But He is also just and He hates sin. And Hebrews talks about how God chastens those He loves.

I think about pastors who have committed adultery and then lost their pastorate. Is this not an appropriate consequence of their action? Because while sin can indeed be forgiven, sometimes there are still legitimate negative consequences incurred. Those in leadership positions in the body of Christ (e.g. teachers and pastors) are held to a higher accounting. Their example is important.

So what about these worship leaders at Bethel? Is it appropriate that they didn't lose their positions? I think the thing that really gets me is when Mr. Silk asked one of the other leaders to come up and forgive them on behalf of the class right after the class found out the news...

But then what sin is "bad enough" to lose your position over? I do believe sexual sins are especially grievous to God.

How far do we take grace?

God has been doing a work in me regarding not being so judgmental and critical and harsh. But God has called us to holiness and in the Old Testament especially God caused some fierce results to take place because of sin. He is the same God now! His call to holiness must be upheld and not overlooked or minimized. Right?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

@NOV25, @7seasrekeyed, @Rosemaryx thank you all for your responses. Please do forgive me if I am digressing too far from the original posting. But I have had reoccurring questions regarding that video and I would really appreciate other believers' perspectives.

I just happened upon that show one day several months back. I was not familiar with Elijah Streams, nor am I now. The subject of Bethel I found interesting though. As I listened and watched, I became disturbed. Mr. Silk's demeanor disturbed me for one thing. But as he talked about the approach he took toward the members' fornication I really began to have questions... God is for reconciliation, yes. But He is also just and He hates sin. And Hebrews talks about how God chastens those He loves.

I think about pastors who have committed adultery and then lost their pastorate. Is this not an appropriate consequence of their action? Because while sin can indeed be forgiven, sometimes there are still legitimate negative consequences incurred. Those in leadership positions in the body of Christ (e.g. teachers and pastors) are held to a higher accounting. Their example is important.

So what about these worship leaders at Bethel? Is it appropriate that they didn't lose their positions? I think the thing that really gets me is when Mr. Silk asked one of the other leaders to come up and forgive them on behalf of the class right after the class found out the news...

But then what sin is "bad enough" to lose your position over? I do believe sexual sins are especially grievous to God.

How far do we take grace?

God has been doing a work in me regarding not being so judgmental and critical and harsh. But God has called us to holiness and in the Old Testament especially God caused some fierce results to take place because of sin. He is the same God now! His call to holiness must be upheld and not overlooked or minimized. Right?

well there is a difference when we are ourselves critical and harsh of others and when we use discernment and what the Bible calls right judgement. I would agree that we personally need our ease with which we judge others to be toned down, have forgiveness in our hearts and even love for those caught up in sin...but none of that means we excuse sin. God certainly does not think lightly of sin nor does He over look it...whether or not we are believers...sin is sin and it separates us from God. in fact, people will often develop a negative attitude towards God because of their sin and that includes Christians

yes God is the same now...He has provided all we need to have forgiveness of sin . a guilty conscience is not from the Holy Spirit..the devil is the accuser, not God. however we should have in place the practice of a clear conscience between us and God. I do not believe, nor would I participate in, nor encourage others, to believe some of the modern practice of never asking God to forgive me if I should sin

some teach that we just need forgiveness once...but then why does John say God will forgive our sin if we confess it? he goes as far as to say that we make God a liar if we say we have no sin and God's word is not in us

so that is very clear and sheds God's light on those who think sin is not serious if you are a believer

…8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.…

I don't think you have gone off track with your concerns in the least

many are leading people astray, but the Bible is absolutely clear and that is why we need to KNOW God's word and thereby have some discernment regarding all these things that are being taught that are not from God

never feel shy about asking questions

 

[NOV25]

@NOV25, @7seasrekeyed, @Rosemaryx thank you all for your responses. Please do forgive me if I am digressing too far from the original posting. But I have had reoccurring questions regarding that video and I would really appreciate other believers' perspectives.

I just happened upon that show one day several months back. I was not familiar with Elijah Streams, nor am I now. The subject of Bethel I found interesting though. As I listened and watched, I became disturbed. Mr. Silk's demeanor disturbed me for one thing. But as he talked about the approach he took toward the members' fornication I really began to have questions... God is for reconciliation, yes. But He is also just and He hates sin. And Hebrews talks about how God chastens those He loves.

I think about pastors who have committed adultery and then lost their pastorate. Is this not an appropriate consequence of their action? Because while sin can indeed be forgiven, sometimes there are still legitimate negative consequences incurred. Those in leadership positions in the body of Christ (e.g. teachers and pastors) are held to a higher accounting. Their example is important.

So what about these worship leaders at Bethel? Is it appropriate that they didn't lose their positions? I think the thing that really gets me is when Mr. Silk asked one of the other leaders to come up and forgive them on behalf of the class right after the class found out the news...

But then what sin is "bad enough" to lose your position over? I do believe sexual sins are especially grievous to God.

How far do we take grace?

God has been doing a work in me regarding not being so judgmental and critical and harsh. But God has called us to holiness and in the Old Testament especially God caused some fierce results to take place because of sin. He is the same God now! His call to holiness must be upheld and not overlooked or minimized. Right?

If a pastor or leader commits adultery or fornication they should be removed temporarily or maybe even permanently.
Those who teach must meet biblical criteria being above reproach for the sake of the gospel.

When this type of sin occurs the elders must help find the root of sin. We must first ask whether or not this person is in the faith. Did he succumb to a “moment of weakness” as a new creation in Christ or is he a goat unaware? To bypass this crucial first step in the name of tolerance is non biblical. We are to remove the speck from our eye then help our brother with the branch in his. Those who are called are commanded to judge, but judge rightly, guided by the Spirit through scripture.

 

[Lanolin]

I would stay away from those names. Yep wolves.
CCM is just trying to make a buck out of christian music, they have been successful at it, especially hillsong but personally I wouldnt buy any of their music. You wonder where all that money is going, its not actually being used for good causes or charities. Most of its keeping the owners of these religious enterprises rich.

 

[EliBeth]

well there is a difference when we are ourselves critical and harsh of others and when we use discernment and what the Bible calls right judgement. I would agree that we personally need our ease with which we judge others to be toned down, have forgiveness in our hearts and even love for those caught up in sin...but none of that means we excuse sin. God certainly does not think lightly of sin nor does He over look it...whether or not we are believers...sin is sin and it separates us from God. in fact, people will often develop a negative attitude towards God because of their sin and that includes Christians

yes God is the same now...He has provided all we need to have forgiveness of sin . a guilty conscience is not from the Holy Spirit..the devil is the accuser, not God. however we should have in place the practice of a clear conscience between us and God. I do not believe, nor would I participate in, nor encourage others, to believe some of the modern practice of never asking God to forgive me if I should sin

some teach that we just need forgiveness once...but then why does John say God will forgive our sin if we confess it? he goes as far as to say that we make God a liar if we say we have no sin and God's word is not in us

so that is very clear and sheds God's light on those who think sin is not serious if you are a believer

…8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.…

I don't think you have gone off track with your concerns in the least

many are leading people astray, but the Bible is absolutely clear and that is why we need to KNOW God's word and thereby have some discernment regarding all these things that are being taught that are not from God

never feel shy about asking questions

If a pastor or leader commits adultery or fornication they should be removed temporarily or maybe even permanently.
Those who teach must meet biblical criteria being above reproach for the sake of the gospel.

When this type of sin occurs the elders must help find the root of sin. We must first ask whether or not this person is in the faith. Did he succumb to a “moment of weakness” as a new creation in Christ or is he a goat unaware? To bypass this crucial first step in the name of tolerance is non biblical. We are to remove the speck from our eye then help our brother with the branch in his. Those who are called are commanded to judge, but judge rightly, guided by the Spirit through scripture.

Thank you kindly for the responses!

 

[Guojing]

This video came across my feed and I listened on the way to work this morning. The speakers claim that Hillsong, Bethel and Elevation are not churches, they teach a false Jesus, false gospel and the shepherds are leading folks down the wide road to hell. Thoughts?

The Apostle Paul had some good advice in Romans 14 regarding this, esp in vs5

Romans 14 King James Version (KJV)

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 

[DesertWanderer]

I find this video extremely hypocritical. Here are two guys, probably brought up Baptist, railing against the Charismatic movement. I saw a similar video by John McCarthur, where he basically declares all Charismatics doomed to hell. I dearly love all three of these church leaders, but I have to say, I am very disgusted with their viewpoint.

First, they say these are not "real" churches. If by that they mean going to a separate building, sitting with 30 people whose average age is 100, and listening to one guy rail about "those liberal Democrats"-- then yes, Hillsong, and others, are not "real" churches. But neither are theirs. The church is housed in each believer, not in a separate building. Those pastors who declare that we must go to their "church" are preaching a false gospel. There is no church building that is sacred. Only God is sacred.

The early church looked a lot different than what we have today:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. Acts 2: 44-47

Today it would read: "They took up a collection, burdening the few people gathered. They built a big building with comfortable chairs, a stage, and a really cool sound system. They made sure to be quiet for an hour while the pastor talked. They gathered more money to keep the lights on and the pastor's kids enrolled in private school. They left and came back the following week."

And that's just the mainstream, country church in America. Don't get me started on the mega-churches! The way we have been "doing church" for the last 1700 years has been completely antithetical to what Jesus envisioned for His church.

I don't think any pastor in any church in the US has any room to talk about "real" VS "false" churches. When pastors and church leaders start actually shepherding their flock instead of worrying about paving the parking lot, then they'll have room to talk.

The second point in the video was concerning false doctrines. This is a bit trickier. I have to say that I don't always agree with everything the Charismatic church espouses. For example, I know for a fact, I do not have the gift of tongues. However, should I condemn someone to hell just because they believe they do? I think not! I see people from all denominations lifting their hands and singing to the Lord-- some more extravagantly than others. Should I get upset when they jump up and down a little at the same time? Of course not! It's better than what I've seen some mainstream pastors do-- stand with their hands in their pockets or read their e-mails on their phones, all while the rest of the congregation is worshipping.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I find this video extremely hypocritical. Here are two guys, probably brought up Baptist, railing against the Charismatic movement. I saw a similar video by John McCarthur, where he basically declares all Charismatics doomed to hell. I dearly love all three of these church leaders, but I have to say, I am very disgusted with their viewpoint.

First, they say these are not "real" churches. If by that they mean going to a separate building, sitting with 30 people whose average age is 100, and listening to one guy rail about "those liberal Democrats"-- then yes, Hillsong, and others, are not "real" churches. But neither are theirs. The church is housed in each believer, not in a separate building. Those pastors who declare that we must go to their "church" are preaching a false gospel. There is no church building that is sacred. Only God is sacred.

The early church looked a lot different than what we have today:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. Acts 2: 44-47

Today it would read: "They took up a collection, burdening the few people gathered. They built a big building with comfortable chairs, a stage, and a really cool sound system. They made sure to be quiet for an hour while the pastor talked. They gathered more money to keep the lights on and the pastor's kids enrolled in private school. They left and came back the following week."

And that's just the mainstream, country church in America. Don't get me started on the mega-churches! The way we have been "doing church" for the last 1700 years has been completely antithetical to what Jesus envisioned for His church.

I don't think any pastor in any church in the US has any room to talk about "real" VS "false" churches. When pastors and church leaders start actually shepherding their flock instead of worrying about paving the parking lot, then they'll have room to talk.

The second point in the video was concerning false doctrines. This is a bit trickier. I have to say that I don't always agree with everything the Charismatic church espouses. For example, I know for a fact, I do not have the gift of tongues. However, should I condemn someone to hell just because they believe they do? I think not! I see people from all denominations lifting their hands and singing to the Lord-- some more extravagantly than others. Should I get upset when they jump up and down a little at the same time? Of course not! It's better than what I've seen some mainstream pastors do-- stand with their hands in their pockets or read their e-mails on their phones, all while the rest of the congregation is worshipping.

and that's the other side of this story

I believe in the gifts as described in scripture, speak in tongues and sometimes exercise the gift of a word of knowledge.

it is the excess and unbiblical practices that occasion the backlash but you are right in what you say

frankly, I do not love the ranting of MacArthur nor anyone else and that includes the people in this forum who love to start threads that go something along the lines of 'why we should all put the Holy Spirit to bed'

I firmly believe these people are speaking 'from another spirit' and MacArthur, who seems so full of hate, should practice the casting out of demonic spirits and he could start with himself

and yes that is what I said

 

[oyster67]

I finally stopped and took the time to watch the video. These men are sound like (trying not to personally attack or judge them as individuals) dry, dead, hateful, and envious Pharisees. The thought of any sort of personal relationship with the Lord via The Holy Spirit really agitates them and they actually go so far as accuse us of wanting a sexual relationship with God! These men really stand in the need for prayer.

"...and He walks me and He talks with me and He tells me I am Him own, and the joy we share..."

This is my testimony and I refuse to be shamed by men of low degree who would rather smash and bash than to just praise the Lord.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I finally stopped and took the time to watch the video. These men are sound like (trying not to personally attack or judge them as individuals) dry, dead, hateful, and envious Pharisees. The thought of any sort of personal relationship with the Lord via The Holy Spirit really agitates them and they actually go so far as accuse us of wanting a sexual relationship with God! These men really stand in the need for prayer.

"...and He walks me and He talks with me and He tells me I am Him own, and the joy we share..."

This is my testimony and I refuse to be shamed by men of low degree who would rather smash and bash than to just praise the Lord.

just so

I would look, act and feel like an old prune by now if all I had was a Bible and bunch of cessationists telling me "that's all there is folks" while judging my walk like the scribes and Pharisees that threw the woman supposedly caught in adultery at Jesus feet

we are all Jesus feet but I think the cessationists are crawling away while Jesus looks sadly after them

 

[presidente]

This video came across my feed and I listened on the way to work this morning. The speakers claim that Hillsong, Bethel and Elevation are not churches, they teach a false Jesus, false gospel and the shepherds are leading folks down the wide road to hell. Thoughts?