His People He foreknew !
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God did not have a covenant with the Gentiles.
God formerly knew the covenant people of Israel.
Romans 11:1-2
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite,
a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
Paul is not discussing the Gentiles in Romans 11:1-2.
Paul is using, "foreknew", strictly to describe the former covenant people of Israel.
You cannot deny the context.
God formerly knew the covenant people of Israel.
Romans 11:1-2
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite,
a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
Paul is not discussing the Gentiles in Romans 11:1-2.
Paul is using, "foreknew", strictly to describe the former covenant people of Israel.
You cannot deny the context.
@Inquisitor
Thats not what I said, nor is it the point. The point is, Gods foreknowing a people or person isn't connected to ethnicity even though Rom 11:2 is in the context of Paul discussing jews. Ethnic jews aren't the only people God foreknew, He foreknew all who will be conformed to the image of Christ Rom 8:28-30 are telling us that's just for ethnic jews ? God forbid
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Did God only Justify jews ?
Its because of bigoted thinking like yours and the jews, why Jesus and other writers always used the word world, because it was thought God only had a salvific interest in jews.
Thats not what I said, nor is it the point. The point is, Gods foreknowing a people or person isn't connected to ethnicity even though Rom 11:2 is in the context of Paul discussing jews. Ethnic jews aren't the only people God foreknew, He foreknew all who will be conformed to the image of Christ Rom 8:28-30 are telling us that's just for ethnic jews ? God forbid
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Did God only Justify jews ?
Its because of bigoted thinking like yours and the jews, why Jesus and other writers always used the word world, because it was thought God only had a salvific interest in jews.
You openly admit that Romans 11:2 concerns the Jews only but then you attempt to say that Romans 8:29.
Which uses the same word, "foreknew", as in Romans 11:2, saying that Paul is talking about the Gentiles.
Your ignoring the context and you have distorted the text.
The Gentiles were never foreknown by God, the Gentiles were not in covenant with God.
Paul is telling you why he has been discussing the plight of Israel.
Romans 9:1-4
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed,
separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites.
I am stunned that you think Paul is not discussing Israel from chapter 2 to chapter 11?
Which uses the same word, "foreknew", as in Romans 11:2, saying that Paul is talking about the Gentiles.
Your ignoring the context and you have distorted the text.
The Gentiles were never foreknown by God, the Gentiles were not in covenant with God.
Paul is telling you why he has been discussing the plight of Israel.
Romans 9:1-4
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed,
separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites.
I am stunned that you think Paul is not discussing Israel from chapter 2 to chapter 11?
(2) Another word is foreknowledge.19 This word does not refer to a mere foreknowledge whereby God has prior knowledge of all things, including the end of men. “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world” (Act 15:18). It rather refers to a foreknowledge characterized by love and delight. In this manner, Christ is referred to as “the Elect of God,” stating that He “was foreordained before the foundation of the world” (1Pe 1:20). In like manner, “the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous” (Psa 1:6), and “the Lord knoweth them that are his” (2Ti 2:19). Believers are therefore called “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Pe 1:2). It signifies election itself. “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew” (Rom 11:2); “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate” (Rom 8:29). This foreknowledge is contrasted with not being known, that is, being rejected. “I never knew you” (Mat 7:23); “I know you not” (Mat 25:12). By Wilhelmus à Brakel
Unfortunately for you, Israel was the chosen nation.
Romans 9:25-26
As He says also in Hosea,
“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’ And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
“And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
The context is strong in Romans and it dictates that the Gentiles were not known by God.
The Gentiles were called, "not my people", by Paul, " I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people"
The context has shredded your ignorant interpretation.
Romans 9:25-26
As He says also in Hosea,
“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’ And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
“And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
The context is strong in Romans and it dictates that the Gentiles were not known by God.
The Gentiles were called, "not my people", by Paul, " I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people"
The context has shredded your ignorant interpretation.
About Foreknowledge:
Ephesians 1:4 says, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world". Men often go to great lengths and contrive explanations as to why the doctrine of unconditional election cannot be true. They will twist and turn its meaning into a form which is more palatable to the fleshly mind, by misusing scriptural terminology, in essence denying that such a doctrine is true except in a very limited sense. The most common explanation of election by those who despise the thought of a sovereign, electing GOD, is to cast it at the feet of GOD's foreknowledge. The two chief verses which are generally used in this so called explanation are found in 1 Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, " and Romans 8:29; "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son. " No one can deny that election is according to the foreknowledge of GOD for the scripture plainly says as much. The scripture says"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." We know that HE is omniscient and omnipresent so it is a rather elementary truth that HE knows the things that will occur before they transpire. Those who wish to explain away GOD's sovereign choice of an elect people, set forth HIS foreknowledge as a simple act of the omniscience of GOD looking down through time to find out what would occur; as if the world was wound up like a big toy and then let loose to run whatever course it may take. Their concept denies the very truth of the fact that GOD is an absolute Sovereign. GOD does not look through time to see future events so that HE might be aware of what is going to occur. Rather the LORD plainly says, "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." GOD is not a reactionary. HE is a sovereign predestinator of all events. "I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." HE knows the end from the beginning because HE declares what will take place and leaves nothing to blind chance or fate. Even the minutest of details are in the hands of this Sovereign; whether it be the results of a game of dice. "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD." or the number of hairs on a mans head. GOD's choice of an elect people is truly based on HIS foreknowledge because HE decreed all things to come to pass exactly as HE desired them. The "determinate counsel and foreknowledge" of GOD are inseparable truths. Where you find one you will always find the other. GOD knows beforehand what will occur because HE marks out what will occur and no one can overturn it. The LORD JESUS CHRIST came into the world for a specific purpose, which was to “save his people from their sins." In order for HIM to save HIS people, HE had to have a people. HE died a substitutionary death for them. In order for HIM to die a sinner's death it was necessary for HIM to be taken by wicked men and slain according to the purpose of GOD as HE revealed in the Prophets, that it would be done. On the day of Pentecost Peter preached the glorious truth of the predestination of every event which brought JESUS CHRIST to die in our stead and take upon HIMSELF our sin. GOD is never bound to use any sort of means in any thing that HE undertakes to do, but HE has revealed very plainly in this matter that HE used the wickedness of these Jewish zealots to deliver HIS only begotten SON up to be slain. HE directed and used the wickedness of Judas to betray HIM into the hands of those who would drive the nails in HIS feet and hands. Every hammer blow and every lash of the whip along with the hands which would hold those instruments of torture, was determined before the foundation of the world by HIM who loved HIS people with an everlasting love. "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.””Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts.”
Piece by Mike Mcinnis https://media-cloud.sermonaudio.com/text/81721213753709.pdf
Ephesians 1:4 says, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world". Men often go to great lengths and contrive explanations as to why the doctrine of unconditional election cannot be true. They will twist and turn its meaning into a form which is more palatable to the fleshly mind, by misusing scriptural terminology, in essence denying that such a doctrine is true except in a very limited sense. The most common explanation of election by those who despise the thought of a sovereign, electing GOD, is to cast it at the feet of GOD's foreknowledge. The two chief verses which are generally used in this so called explanation are found in 1 Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, " and Romans 8:29; "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son. " No one can deny that election is according to the foreknowledge of GOD for the scripture plainly says as much. The scripture says"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." We know that HE is omniscient and omnipresent so it is a rather elementary truth that HE knows the things that will occur before they transpire. Those who wish to explain away GOD's sovereign choice of an elect people, set forth HIS foreknowledge as a simple act of the omniscience of GOD looking down through time to find out what would occur; as if the world was wound up like a big toy and then let loose to run whatever course it may take. Their concept denies the very truth of the fact that GOD is an absolute Sovereign. GOD does not look through time to see future events so that HE might be aware of what is going to occur. Rather the LORD plainly says, "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." GOD is not a reactionary. HE is a sovereign predestinator of all events. "I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." HE knows the end from the beginning because HE declares what will take place and leaves nothing to blind chance or fate. Even the minutest of details are in the hands of this Sovereign; whether it be the results of a game of dice. "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD." or the number of hairs on a mans head. GOD's choice of an elect people is truly based on HIS foreknowledge because HE decreed all things to come to pass exactly as HE desired them. The "determinate counsel and foreknowledge" of GOD are inseparable truths. Where you find one you will always find the other. GOD knows beforehand what will occur because HE marks out what will occur and no one can overturn it. The LORD JESUS CHRIST came into the world for a specific purpose, which was to “save his people from their sins." In order for HIM to save HIS people, HE had to have a people. HE died a substitutionary death for them. In order for HIM to die a sinner's death it was necessary for HIM to be taken by wicked men and slain according to the purpose of GOD as HE revealed in the Prophets, that it would be done. On the day of Pentecost Peter preached the glorious truth of the predestination of every event which brought JESUS CHRIST to die in our stead and take upon HIMSELF our sin. GOD is never bound to use any sort of means in any thing that HE undertakes to do, but HE has revealed very plainly in this matter that HE used the wickedness of these Jewish zealots to deliver HIS only begotten SON up to be slain. HE directed and used the wickedness of Judas to betray HIM into the hands of those who would drive the nails in HIS feet and hands. Every hammer blow and every lash of the whip along with the hands which would hold those instruments of torture, was determined before the foundation of the world by HIM who loved HIS people with an everlasting love. "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.””Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts.”
Piece by Mike Mcinnis https://media-cloud.sermonaudio.com/text/81721213753709.pdf
So much philosophy and accusation in your reply.
Back to the text itself.
Here is a simple paragraph from Romans and a foundational text for Calvinism.
Romans 9:6-13
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Here is the question I asked AI.
Using only the N.T.
Can you provide an analysis of Romans 9:6-13.
Please pay particular attention to the words, "works", "the promise".
Also, "the older will serve the younger". Given some say Romans 9:12-13 regards salvation.
I would say it regards the promise.
ChatGPT Replied:
Here is a clear, NT-only analysis of Romans 9:6–13, focusing precisely on:
4️⃣ “The Older Will Serve the Younger” (v12)
5️⃣ Does Romans 9:12-13 regard salvation or the promise?
You are correct:
✅ It regards the promise.
Evidence from the NT:
Back to the text itself.
Here is a simple paragraph from Romans and a foundational text for Calvinism.
Romans 9:6-13
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Here is the question I asked AI.
Using only the N.T.
Can you provide an analysis of Romans 9:6-13.
Please pay particular attention to the words, "works", "the promise".
Also, "the older will serve the younger". Given some say Romans 9:12-13 regards salvation.
I would say it regards the promise.
ChatGPT Replied:
Here is a clear, NT-only analysis of Romans 9:6–13, focusing precisely on:
- “works”
- “the promise”
- “the older will serve the younger”
- whether the passage concerns salvation or the promise.
- v6: “It is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.”
- v7: “Nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: ‘Through Isaac your offspring will be named.’”
- v8: “It is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.”
- v9: “For this is what the promise said: ‘At this time I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.’”
- v10-12: “Rebekah conceived by one man, Isaac, though not yet born, not having done any works, ‘the older will serve the younger.’”
- v13: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
- The word “works” (ἔργα) here is explicitly contrasted with God’s calling and purpose:
“though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls.” - In Romans:
- “Works” typically refer to human effort, observance of Torah, or personal merit (Romans 3:20, 4:2, 4:4-6, 11:6).
- Paul insists election and calling are not grounded in human works but in God’s purpose, to uphold God’s freedom to fulfill His promise.
- In this passage, “works” are not the basis for God’s covenantal choice of Jacob over Esau.
- The “promise” (ἐπαγγελία) in Romans refers to God’s sovereign word to continue the covenantal line through Isaac (not Ishmael) and then through Jacob (not Esau).
- Paul quotes:
“At this time I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” (Genesis 18:10,14) - “Promise” in Romans 4:13-21 refers to God’s word to Abraham that he would become “heir of the world” through faith, not law.
- In Romans 9:8, “children of the promise” = those who are counted as the true offspring of Abraham because God’s word of promise creates the line, not physical descent alone.
4️⃣ “The Older Will Serve the Younger” (v12)
“She was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’” (Genesis 25:23)
- This statement precedes the birth and any “works” of Jacob and Esau.
- It is about the divine reversal in covenantal inheritance, consistent with God’s choice:
- Isaac over Ishmael
- Jacob over Esau
- David over his older brothers
- The “last will be first” (Matthew 19:30; 20:16).
- In Genesis context, it concerns nations (Israel and Edom), not individual salvation.
5️⃣ Does Romans 9:12-13 regard salvation or the promise?
You are correct:
✅ It regards the promise.
Evidence from the NT:
- Romans 9:4: “to them belong the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.”
- Romans 9:6-13 unfolds how the word of promise has not failed despite Israel’s rejection by showing that God’s promise always worked through sovereign selection within Israel (Isaac, Jacob), not all Israelite lineage.
- Romans 9:30-32 clarifies salvation is by faith, while 9:6-13 addresses the mechanism of the promise and God’s freedom in election.
- “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” (Malachi 1:2-3) is a post-nation formation statement regarding Israel’s covenant status over Edom, not about personal eternal destiny.
- “Works” here are human efforts/merit, explicitly excluded as the reason for God’s election.
- “The promise” refers to the covenantal promise made to Abraham’s seed, working through God’s sovereign choice, not natural descent.
- “The older will serve the younger” is about God’s sovereign choice in the covenantal line, not about salvation.
- Romans 9:6-13 is about the promise and God’s sovereign choice in establishing His covenant, not directly about individual salvation.
God overrides His justice in your case Sipsey.
God should have destroyed you and not saved you.
God destroyed the world once already.
So we are not trying to separate, "justice from mercy and grace".
God through His justice into the bin and amplified His divine love for you.
Love is the primary attribute of God and not justice.
This is not a contest between interpretations or a philosophical discourse.
Divine Love is the gift of the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts.
Only in divine love will there be any unity in our faith.
God should have destroyed you and not saved you.
God destroyed the world once already.
So we are not trying to separate, "justice from mercy and grace".
God through His justice into the bin and amplified His divine love for you.
Love is the primary attribute of God and not justice.
This is not a contest between interpretations or a philosophical discourse.
Divine Love is the gift of the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts.
Only in divine love will there be any unity in our faith.
You agree that Paul's usage of, "foreknew", in the text (Romans 11:2) is racial, that is, covenant Israel.
Then you flip the switch in the text (Romans 8:29) and say that, "foreknew", means something else.
It is beyond your comprehension that Paul is talking to the Jews and about the Jews, in Romans 2-11.
You cannot use two different definitions for the word, "foreknew".
That is prohibited.
You are directly twisting the text of Romans to advance the philosophy of determinism.
Both I and AI are in agreement regarding the definition of, "foreknew".
You are guilty as charged.
Then you flip the switch in the text (Romans 8:29) and say that, "foreknew", means something else.
It is beyond your comprehension that Paul is talking to the Jews and about the Jews, in Romans 2-11.
You cannot use two different definitions for the word, "foreknew".
That is prohibited.
You are directly twisting the text of Romans to advance the philosophy of determinism.
Both I and AI are in agreement regarding the definition of, "foreknew".
You are guilty as charged.
The point is, Gods foreknowing a people or person isn't connected to ethnicity even though Rom 11:2 is in the context of Paul discussing jews. Ethnic jews aren't the only people God foreknew, He foreknew all who will be conformed to the image of Christ Rom 8:28-30 are telling us that's just for ethnic jews ? God forbid
He foreknew all the vessels of mercy Rom 9 which some were called out from the jews and Gentiles Rom 9:23-24
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
He foreknew all the vessels of mercy Rom 9 which some were called out from the jews and Gentiles Rom 9:23-24
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Well, you’re trying to make an argument for predestination, which some on here have made that a religion in and of itself.
Jesus said in John 21:22 “Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
Basically, everyone has their own life to work out and follow Jesus. God has a plan for each person. Should I worry or try to discern if someone is predestined before i help them? Thats completely ridiculous.
So, if this crusade that you’re on doesn’t provide any benefit to anyone, then what’s the point?
Jesus said in John 21:22 “Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
Basically, everyone has their own life to work out and follow Jesus. God has a plan for each person. Should I worry or try to discern if someone is predestined before i help them? Thats completely ridiculous.
So, if this crusade that you’re on doesn’t provide any benefit to anyone, then what’s the point?
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Rabbit Trail? Y’all are just talking about stuff that doesn’t mean anything, and doesn’t do anything for anybody. You need to close these topics that way all you guys who agree can just continue humping each other’s legs in your own topic or whatever you want to do.
Then you won’t be distracted by reality.
Then you won’t be distracted by reality.
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