Historical evidence for the existence of Jesus

[Sharp]

Alright.

The creeds in the new testament.

It is constantly said that scholars date these creeds back to the mid 30s. I've seen that said so many times.

But how do they know this? And who are these scholars - I can't find them anywhere.

It seems like every time someone says "scholars date these creeds back to the mid 30s", that acutually counts as a scholar saying that these creeds date to the mid 30s, but no-one wants to say how they know these creeds are so early.

 

[Stuey]

What do you mean by creed here?

 

[Artbox]

I understand that the Jewish-Roman historian Josephus makes two references to Jesus, one of which (the Testimonium Flavianum) is considered to be partially authentic and the other (from the Antiquities) to be fully authentic.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I think for historical apologetics that Josh McDowell is a good source--he gives extensive references in "Evidence That Demand a Verdict." For philosophical apologetics I like C.S. Lewis. some others are Paul Little, Francis Schaeffer, J.B. Philips, etc....

 

[Slepsog4]

We have several forms of documentation:

The 4 gospels
The early church fathers
The Romans
The Jews

The idea that the NT writers were "unknown" is stupid. Stephen King was also an unknown until he wrote something, duh.
Virtually the entire NT writings were completed within 35 years of Jesus' death.

Eusebius did not monkey with official Roman documents or with the Jewish documents. Goofy argument.

If Jesus' enemies had kept quiet about him in their writings, one might actually suspect something about the gospel accounts.

 

[Angel888]

Jesus Never Existed?​

By​

ANGEL 888​

Some critics are not satisfied with the Biblical evidence, and want first century extra-Biblical references to Jesus. The fact is that are there at least six extra-Biblical testimonies to Jesus’ existence. The most famous and controversial of these is from the first century Jewish historian Josephus. The citation from Josephus is controversial because in one passage known as the "Testimonium Flavianum" (Ant. 18.3.3) contains language that appears to be much too favorable towards Jesus for a first century non-Christian Jew. However, even when you remove the possible interpolations, the passage still reads as follows:​

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."
Here is an extra-Biblical first century source that affirms, (1) Jesus existed, (2) He did "great" things, (3) He was executed under Pilate, and (4) He had a known group of followers who were being killed for their faith. Even aside from the Testimonium Flavianum, there is still another reference to the historical Jesus from Josephus found in Antiquities 20.9.1 which references the trial of James, the brother of Jesus who was the leader of the early Jerusalem church.
There are several other commonly cited sources as well which will be briefly cited. One of the most reliable is from the very early second century Roman historian Tacticus (Annals, 15.44). He was a vehement critic of Christianity and places widespread Christian persecution as early as the Roman emperor Nero (37–68AD). An undisputed paragraph from his Annals reads:
"But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind."
If Christianity was just based on rumors and lies, certainly Tacticus, who claims Christians practiced "pernicious superstition," would have pointed this out or at least argued in favor of such a theory. Nevertheless,
Tacticus asserts that Christianity was widespread by the time of Nero, which assumes that the movement must be older than Nero if it had any time to develop into such a recognizable entity. He affirms that "Christus" was put to death by Pilate. There are no known textual variants of Tacticus that omit this account. Other historical writings and claims of Tacticus are rarely if ever called into dispute. Doubt can only be cast on this reference to the historical Jesus if one purposely blinds him or herself to the evidence.
Pliny the Younger, a late first century and early second century figure who was also governor of Bithynia, is also a commonly referred to extra-Biblical source pointing towards a real existence of Jesus (Pliny, X. 96). In one of his correspondences with the Roman emperor Trajan, Pliny details Christian practices and explains his method of forcing Christians to curse and renounce Christ. Before describing means of punishment, Pliny had this to say about Christian practices:
They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up.
This correspondence can probably be dated to around 110AD. Here it is seen that Christians were meeting together on a "fixed day" which agrees with the book of Acts, that believers were worshipping Christ like a god (so much for the idea that a divine Christ was invented much later or at the Council of Nicea) and had a committed moral code. Later in this section, Pliny details how he interrogated Christians and put them to death if they did not renounce their faith.
The extra-Biblical evidence of Christian martyrdom at the hands of the Romans goes back even forty years earlier based on Tacticus’ citing of persecution under Nero in the early sixties. It would indeed be peculiar that so many people were sacrificing their lives, less then a generation after Christ’s death and resurrection, for something that they did not truly believe in beyond a shadow of a doubt. Of course, the common counter argument is that these early believers were just morons or deluded about the historical Jesus and His death and resurrection. It is curious that skeptics almost 2,000 years after the fact are more well informed than the contemporaries of Jesus’ own generation who were sacrificing everything for something they were unsure or incorrect about.
Another reference point is a first century Hellenistic historian Thallus who alludes to the darkness that followed the crucifixion. Another possible reference to Christ comes from Suetonius who makes reference to Jews who were expelled from Rome on account of the "instigation of Chrestus." Chrestus was a common misspelling of Jesus’ name in some circles. This is a less likely, but plausible source. If Suetonius wasn’t referring to Christ, it’s not known who he was referring to with any certainty. Thus Jesus is still a reasonable candidate.
Jesus' enemies wrote about him, for they wrote in the Talmud, that Jesus was a sorcerer,
"Yeshua, whom they hanged on the eve of the passover". this still admts that Jesus was there & was crucified.
Less important examples can also be given, but the information above suffices for a compelling evidence for the extra-biblical evidence of the existence of Jesus. ....Angel 888

 

[Angel888]

there is the writtings of Sunetus, rea my post

 

[charisenexcelcis]

there is the writtings of Sunetus, rea my post

Nice post.

 

[Sharp]

What do you mean by creed here?

1 Corinthians 15:3-7.

1 Corinthians 11:23-25

Philippians 2:5-11

These are supposed to be creeds that were spoken by christians in the 30s and 40s.

But I want to know how we know this.