Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
thks
HOW CAN I BE 100% SURE THAT I WILL GO TO HEAVEN WHEN I DIE?
- Thread starter seymourclear
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
thks
The only thing you can be 100% sure is going to rise from the dead - right here on earth, NOT in heaven.
Notable supporters or strong advocates include Thomas R. Schreiner, Peter H. Davids, J. Ramsey Michaels, and a number of contemporary Petrine scholars; the interpretation also has deep roots in early Christian interpretation because Genesis 6 was widely read as an angelic transgression. Schreiner's current position is particularly clear: the πνεύματα ἐν φυλακῇ are demonic/fallen angelic spirits associated with the rebellion of Genesis 6:1–4, and Christ's proclamation announces His victory and their defeat—not an offer of salvation.
The Greek is remarkably favorable to the angel interpretation
The crucial expression is:τοῖς ἐν φυλακῇ πνεύμασιν
tois en phylakē pneumasi
“to the spirits in prison”
The important word is πνεύμασιν — pneumasi, dative plural of πνεῦμα, pneuma.
When the New Testament uses πνεύματα, “spirits,” absolutely—that is, without qualifying them as the spirits of human beings—it very commonly means supernatural spirit beings: angels or demons. Schreiner specifically notes this. Examples include Matthew 8:16; 12:45; Mark 3:11; Luke 10:20; Acts 8:7; 19:12–13.
That matters because when Scripture wants unmistakably to identify departed human beings as “spirits,” it normally supplies a qualifier. For example:
Hebrews 12:23:
πνεύμασι δικαίων τετελειωμένων
“the spirits of righteous men made perfect.”
David Gooding makes precisely this observation: Hebrews does not simply call deceased believers pneumata; it identifies them as the spirits of righteous people. In 1 Peter 3:19 Peter simply says the spirits.
So:
That by itself doesn't prove the angel interpretation, but it certainly pushes in that direction.
Then comes φυλακή — phylakē
This may be even more significant.φυλακή means a place of guarding, custody, confinement—hence prison.
Schreiner points out a striking problem for the human interpretation: φυλακή is not otherwise used in the NT as the postmortem abode of deceased human souls, whereas the concept of supernatural beings being held in confinement awaiting judgment is explicitly biblical.
Compare:
Jude 6
And:
2 Peter 2:4
Gooding therefore observes that we already know from Jude and 2 Peter that fallen spirit beings are being held in confinement awaiting judgment, making pneumata en phylakē an extraordinarily natural description of them.
And Peter himself tells us WHEN they sinned
This is where the argument becomes formidable.Peter doesn't merely say:
He continues:
1 Peter 3:20
So Peter gives us:
spirits → disobedience → Noah → Flood.
Now compare Peter's second epistle:
2 Peter 2:4–5
angels sinned → imprisoned → Noah → Flood.
And Jude:
Jude 6
angels → abandoned proper habitation → imprisoned → judgment.
That produces an extraordinary three-text correspondence:
| 1 Peter 3 | 2 Peter 2 | Jude 6 |
|---|---|---|
| πνεύματα spirits | ἀγγέλων angels | ἀγγέλους angels |
| disobeyed | sinned | abandoned proper domain |
| imprisoned | Tartarus/confinement | eternal bonds |
| Noah | Noah | boundary violation |
| Flood | Flood | judgment |
The word κηρύσσω is important too
Peter says:ἐκήρυξεν — ekēryxen
from κηρύσσω — kēryssō
It means to herald, announce, proclaim.
Peter does not say:
εὐαγγελίζομαι — euangelizomai
“to evangelize / announce good news.”
That considerably weakens the idea that Jesus went there offering salvation to dead humans.
Schreiner expressly makes this distinction: kēryssō does not inherently mean evangelistic preaching. Christ may be announcing His triumph and their judgment.
That interpretation also makes excellent sense of the end of the paragraph.
Peter begins:
3:19 — Christ went/proclaimed to imprisoned spirits.
And ends:
3:22
Remarkably, Peter uses the same verb:
πορευθείς — poreutheis, “having gone”
in 3:19 and 3:22.
Schreiner consequently sees the whole thing as a triumphal sequence:
Death → Resurrection → Ascension → proclamation of victory over supernatural powers.
And then Genesis 6 suddenly makes perfect sense
Without the angel interpretation, Peter's sudden reference to Noah is rather peculiar:But under the Genesis 6 interpretation there is a continuous thought:
Genesis 6 angelic rebellion
↓
fallen spirits confined
↓
Noah/Flood judgment
↓
eight humans delivered through water
↓
Christ's resurrection
↓
Christ ascends victoriously
↓
angels, authorities and powers subjected to Him
Schreiner explicitly says the Genesis 6 interpretation explains why Peter suddenly introduces Noah at all.
And there is another important background piece: 1 Enoch. Peter's Jewish audience would have known a widespread interpretation in which the “sons of God” of Genesis 6 were rebellious heavenly beings who violated their assigned order and were subsequently bound/imprisoned awaiting judgment. Jarvis Williams notes that this same interpretive tradition appears in 1 Enoch, Jubilees, Jude and 2 Peter.
So I would rank the linguistic evidence roughly this way:
πνεύματα — favors supernatural spirits.
ἐν φυλακῇ — strongly fits supernatural beings confined for judgment.
ἀπειθήσασίν ποτε — they committed a particular former rebellion.
ἐν ἡμέραις Νῶε — explicitly locates it in Noah's era.
ἐκήρυξεν — proclamation, not necessarily evangelization.
πορευθείς in vv.19 and 22 — links the proclamation with Christ's victorious ascension.
ἀγγέλων...ἐξουσιῶν...δυνάμεων in v.22 — concludes the passage with Christ's supremacy over precisely the sort of supernatural beings introduced in v.19.
Put 1 Peter 3:19–22 + 2 Peter 2:4–5 + Jude 6 + Genesis 6:1–4 beside one another, and the fallen-angel interpretation becomes, in my assessment, exegetically very strong. It also arguably gives pneumata en phylakē its most straightforward meaning: supernatural spirits held in confinement because of their antediluvian rebellion.
One correction to my previous answer is warranted: Schreiner definitely supports this view; the current Logos discussion with him states it explicitly.
??? Which of These?
Three Tenses Of God's Eternal Salvation
Additional study:
The Bible: The BIG Picture
Amen.
Power my 3 words are
Aman
Parah
Rauch.
Them 3 words cover Any of God Glory Them are Know God Is Love!
Aman
Parah
Rauch.
Them 3 words cover Any of God Glory Them are Know God Is Love!
Got to go deep hear my surface of much more meaning than generic word that make One look good but inside are therse ,3 glorified words and a punch line
here
When Jesus preached, these three action words were the core building blocks of his message: you must trust (Aman), so that you can bear fruit (Parah) by the power of the Holy Spirit (Ruach).
The works that Paul talks about in Eph. 2 are “our” works ; how else could we BOAST if they were not ours? These are BOASTFUL works which men do that originate with themselves—not God. We cannot “BOAST” about doing the works of God. Luke 17:10 explains it perfectly: “ when you have done all those things which you are COMMANDED, say we are unprofitable servants, we have done what was our DUTY to do.” You see no boasting there. You cannot BOAST about doing what you are commanded to do by God. You can only boast about your own works—works of men. It specifically says “not of “WORKS” lest anyone should BOAST.” That tells you the kind of works that are being discussed in this passage.
I know the “boastful works” in Eph 2 are not talking about baptism because:
1) baptism is a WORK OF GOD Colossians 2:12: “Buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith ( through believing) in the WORKING OF GOD.”
FAITH also is a work of God according to John 6:28-29. So if Eph 2 eliminates all works, both of men and of God, then Eph. 2 eliminates “faith” and that means faith is not essential to salvation either. That is more consistent with saved by GRACE ALONE. That means totally by grace alone—not by baptism and NOT. BY FAITH! That which proves too much, proves nothing.
Then, also, you have man contradicting Jesus the Son of God, because He says in Mark 16:16 that BOTH faith and baptism together save us. If you look up the conjunction “AND” it means it connects things of EQUAL value or importance. Jesus used the conjunction “and” to join “faith” and “baptism” together. That means they are equal in value or importance. That was no “accident.” The Holy Spirit has already stated that they are BOTH WORKS OF GOD ( Col. 2:12, John 6:29) so it is no surprise that Jesus joins them together in Mark 16:16. Two WORKS OF GOD that are necessary to be saved. Beware! The devil is going to attack this and try to make you believe a lie —just like he did Eve in the garden in the beginning.
2) another reason that I know Eph. 2 is not talking about baptism is because BAPTISM IS A COMMANDMENT OF GOD. MATTHEW 28:18-19, in the Great Commission, JESUS Himself commanded baptism., “Go into all the world…baptizing them…”. The apostle Peter commanded it in Acts 2, “Repent and be baptized…”. And he again COMMANDED it in Acts 10:48 “And he COMMANDED them to be baptized..”. Ananias commanded it when he told Saul to “arise and be baptized in Acts 22:16. Since baptism is a commandment of God, I know it cannot be a “boastful” work. We certainly cannot boast about being baptized; as Luke 17 says, “we have only done what was our DUTY to do.” We have obeyed the commandment of God.
Please deal HONESTLY with the scriptures. Don’t make Eph. 2 mean any and all works when it clearly is talking about only 1 kind of works— BOASTFUL works of men.
When you drive a car down the highway, do you have a 100% guarantee someone else will not wreck into you, or a tire blow out? Is that a reason to drive recklessly? Does safe driving and awareness reduce the chance of an accident or amount of damage?
Ephesians 2 is very clear. The works come once we have been saved. Ephesians 2:10 tells us that good works were prepared by God for the person saved by grace through faith to walk in, not to do good works in order to be saved.
You are exactly rightly!
Yet certain folks will still try to spin Ephesians 2 and teach we are saved by "these" works, but just not "those" works. Such folks end up trying to smuggle works into salvation through faith, not works.where does this say saved by grace?
eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
thks
Amen!
kinds of works
((unfruitful works))
(works of the law)
Refer to the works of the mosaic covenant
(works of the flesh)
Listed in Gal 5:19-21 & Eph 5:3-5
these cause the loss of grace and the bar us from salvation in the kingdom of God. the unfruitful works of darkness
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. eph 5:6
(dead works) or (works alone) or (natural works)
Works that are good in and of themselves but are not in union with Christ and grace and have power to accomplish perseverance unto eternal salvation! unfruitful works
Apart from Christ: NOTHING! Jn 15:5
((fruitful works))
Living works or deeds of rightousness!
(living works) (faith & works)
Supernatural good works (gifts of God) accomplished in union with Christ and empowered by His grace with perseverance to the end of our life unto eternal salvation!
fruitful works! Lk 3:9 Jn 15:5 bear fruit
2 cor 9: And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
With Christ & empowered by grace:
I CAN DO ALL THINGS! Phil 4:13
1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Living works:
1 pet 2:15-16 good works
1 pet 2:20 acceptable to God
1 pet 2:21-22 suffer as Christ suffered
righteousness implies & requires acts (volition) of righteousness
just deeds unto faithfulness in the new covenant!
mt 3:15
mt 10:22
mt 25
mt 6:33
mt 7:7
mt 26:41
mt 7:14
Lk 1:75
acts 10:35
rom 3:21
rom 5:21
rom 6:18
1 tim 6:11
1 tim 2:22
2 tim 3:16
heb 11:33
2 pet 2:21
1 Jn 2:29
1 Jn 3:7
1 pet 2:24
mt 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Practices)
Luke 1:75
In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
(acts / deeds)
Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: (works of the flesh) but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (living works of righteousness)
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, (works of the flesh) or of obedience unto righteousness? (living works of righteousness)
Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; (works of the flesh) even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. (living works of righteousness)
1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (living works of righteousness)
1 tim 6: 11-14
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(Living works of righteousness)
thks
Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Romans 2:6-7
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
thks
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.You are exactly rightly!
thks
In regard to Acts 10:35, working righteousness is the result of having been saved through faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are the fruit of, not the means of obtaining salvation. God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness from a right principle, and to a right end, yet their fear of Him and working righteousness are not the origin of their acceptance; but are to be considered as descriptive of the persons, who are accepted by Him in Christ.
You error by reading the Bible through the lens of works salvation/works righteousness.
In regard to Acts 10:35, obeying the works of righteousness (Matthew 3:15) is the avenue to which one is saved through faith. We are not saved simply by works of faith which we have done (James 2:24) but works of God (Acts 2:38-41) in connection to this other acts of obedience. God accepts those who fear and obey Him, period. Their fear and obedience is not the reason for their salvation but the pathway to it. Following this pathway is nothing to boast about but simply the result of a desire for eternal life.In regard to Acts 10:35, working righteousness is the result of having been saved through faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are the fruit of, not the means of obtaining salvation. God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness from a right principle, and to a right end, yet their fear of Him and working righteousness are not the origin of their acceptance; but are to be considered as descriptive of the persons, who are accepted by Him in Christ.
You error by reading the Bible through the lens of works salvation/works righteousness.
You are in error because of your insistence that all acts of obedience are acts of merit unless you believe you have already obtained salvation.