How corrupt is the human heart?

[Ariel82]

??? Jesus calls us clean and pure, washed by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Ariel82]

Let me summarise

1. Adam sinned so was separate from God, and doomed to die.
2. We inherit Adams condition.
3. Christ restores us to a pure heart with communion with God.

Some use the word corruption, original sin, but in essence innocence is removed.
The fly in the ointment is Pauls assertion children from believers are Holy, ie
redeemed before the age of responsibility.

My question was about the purity of believers.
Two aspects to this are a purified heart where the Holy Spirit dwells and the
defilement from sin which a believer commits. The spiritual war of sanctification
and obedience to the law of Christ is very real, and we all experience it.

Our language as to this description varies, but we are all agreed new converts
are a long way from walk in "righteousness" and the mature are much closer to
Christs footsteps. Instant perfectionism is absurd and not seen, while licentiousness
as a walk is also rejected.

The idea I am asking is, is real purity possible. It would appear, yes.
I say this because no one has produced a scripture that says we cannot be like
Christ as disciples, rather this is our hope and walk.

The word used for "perfect" is also translated as "mature".

We discussed the different types of righteousness in a another thread.

Foreign righteousness of Christ that is outside of ourselves that is imputed upon us.

And the righteousness that God created in our own hearts and lives.

Some are talking of the first, while you want to talk about the second.

 

[Ariel82]

Ephesians 4
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

 

[PeterJens]

This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
Romans 4:22-24

This is the relationship between God and Abraham is credited as righteousness.
Equally our faith is credited as righteousness to us.
But this is not Christs righteousness, this is the relationship we have with God.
Man by walking righteously is not righteousness that God accepts as a relationship,
but the fruit of the relationship.

Christs righteousness made His sacrifice for sins eternal and complete.

So your theology and justification is wrong.
This is a truth hard for you to face, because you have built your position on sand,
which is being now shaken. And it is God who is shaking it through His word.

And His word is our only foundation. What was once hidden is being made plain,
what was once a shadow is coming into the light. I can both see it and feel it.

Most followers of Christ followed Christ without all these words, it was theologians
who constructed them, and then justified how they taught without knowing why.

You cannot stop the heart of God or His word or His kingdom.

 

[Grace777x70]

We are not a new evolution or becoming a new creation. We are a new creation in Christ when we receive Christ. We don't make ourselves a new creation.

We do not create our own righteousness - this is called self-righteousness. We have become the righteousness of God in Christ.

Get this wrong and we create a works-based humanistic mindset that actually denies the very grace of God in our lives that is needed to renew our minds to the realities of Christ that is already in our new heart.

It's the same principle as a baby is not becoming a human and when it grows up it will be then a real human. It's identity when born is that it is already a human. Feed the human what it needs to grow and it will mature to be what is already inside of it. To manifest what it truly is.

This too is how we grow in Christ by grace and the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and beholding the Lord as in a mirror - the Holy Spirit transforms us as we participate with Him in reflecting the life and grace of God towards others. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

 

[Ariel82]

Brakes!!!

I haven't moved away from imputed righteousness and instant justification. That is the GOSPEL message: Jesus died on the cross for your sins so that you can become born again children of God. He imputed His righteousness upon us to allow us to be adopted.he took our sins to die upon the cross.

I believe in that AFTER being born again people will develop their own righteousness but that can only happen because of Christ IMPUTED righteousness that took our sins upon the cross and place His righteousnes on us so we could be born again children of God.

 

[PeterJens]

The word used for "perfect" is also translated as "mature".

We discussed the different types of righteousness in a another thread.

Foreign righteousness of Christ that is outside of ourselves that is imputed upon us.

And the righteousness that God created in our own hearts and lives.

Some are talking of the first, while you want to talk about the second.

This is an interesting distinction.
We are justified through Christs righteousness that washes us clean and purifies us.
This could be termed as Christs righteousness put within us.

The imputed righteousness concept I am against is saying God only looks at Christ when
he looks at us, so how we walk or our behaviour is not something God sees.

It is a version of all future sin is forgiven doctrine, so sin is no longer the issue.

I have been grappling with the idea of faith being credited as righteousness, and how
sanctification while falling into sin and working this through takes time, and God in His
grace gives us time. This overcomes the issues with gaining and loosing salvation many
talk about as an alternative to imputed righteousness. It is why I talk about a direction
of travel, rather than achievement.

I also have an image of the new creation in us is like an area of influence in our hearts,
that grows into more areas of who we are as we walk. In eternity these dark areas will
be blown away and what remains is the kernal.

Linked with this I have found people are often total contradictions, held in tension, that
if released would cause total nervous breakdown. It reminded me of a house built on sand
in a storm, collapses. So I wonder without the core plant of Gods word in our hearts, we
are just chaff. Based on who I have met and getting to know them, this appears to be the
case.

I lay this in the light, because all is open and before the Lord, glory to His name.

 

[garee]

How do we grow in grace?

Christ died once for all, according to you we died already to sin, we don't die daily & subdue the old man every day, we don't repent anymore, we don't get convicted of sin anymore, we don't confess sin anymore..... so how do we grow/mature?

I would offer. God is not served by human hands/will. I don't think anyone said Him calling us to repent is not part of the growth He causes as new creatures. Others can bring the gospel by planting the seed of it and another can water it with the water of the word as led by the Spirit. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. He makes our yoke easier as He does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure .(imputed righteousness )

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 1Co 3:6

 

[Grace777x70]

Brakes!!!

I haven't moved away from imputed righteousness and instant justification.

I believe in that AFTER being born again people will develop their own righteousness but that can only happen because of Christ IMPUTED righteousness that took our sins upon the cross and place His righteousnes ion is so we could be born again children of God.

If Christians try to live from their "own righteousness" - they will fail miserably.

Perhaps it is the "phrasing" of the term used? I think you are getting the manifestation of the deeds of being righteous in Christ mixed up with "developing their own righteousness".

 

[Ariel82]

When you talk of chaff, do you talk of yourself?

 

[Ariel82]

If Christians try to live from their "own righteousness" - they will fail miserably.

Perhaps it is the "phrasing" of the term used? I think you are getting the manifestation of the deeds of being righteous in Christ mixed up with "developing their own righteousness".

Why do I have to change the way I speak to accommodate?

It is tiring.

I speak of God developing godliness in His people. We also call that righteousness.

I speak of it as our "own" in the sense our bodies our are "own" yet both body and righteousness are really God's because our bodies are His temple. Our righteousness or godliness is built on faith and wisdom that He gives.

 

[PeterJens]

Brakes!!!

I haven't moved away from imputed righteousness and instant justification. That is the GOSPEL message: Jesus died on the cross for your sins so that you can become born again children of God. He imputed His righteousness upon us to allow us to be adopted.he took our sins to die upon the cross.

I believe in that AFTER being born again people will develop their own righteousness but that can only happen because of Christ IMPUTED righteousness that took our sins upon the cross and place His righteousnes on us so we could be born again children of God.

I agree with you on the above.
This is why such discussions can easily get confusing, because certain concepts
are subtle, and if the boundaries are not acknowledged, others extend them beyond
where they should be.

It is also why often these discussion take time for people who wish to disguise there
position, can be brought into the open, and distinctions made.

In love I accept all, until I have reason to say, no you have gone too far.
So praise the Lord, because great strides have been made, theological foundations
shaken, and glory brought to our King.

 

[Ariel82]

When you tell folks you have "moved away from imputed righteousness" they are going to assume you try and justify yourself instead of trust in what Jesus did on the cross.

I only knew differently because we hashed it out in previous threads.

It's tiresome but you have to be aware that how you phrase something may be misunderstood and work on being clearer with your words.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If Christians try to live from their "own righteousness" - they will fail miserably.

Perhaps it is the "phrasing" of the term used? I think you are getting the manifestation of the deeds of being righteous in Christ mixed up with "developing their own righteousness".

If you've come to know Ariel, you know what she thinks and how she meant when she said it.

 

[Grace777x70]

Why do I have to change the way I speak to accommodate?

It is tiring.

I speak of God developing godliness in His people. We also call that righteousness.

I speak of it as our "own" in the sense our bodies our are "own" yet both body and righteousness are really God's because our bodies are His temple. Our righteousness or godliness is built on faith that He gives.

They are 2 different things entirely. Righteousness and godliness are different things.

Developing godliness is completely different from creating one's only righteousness.

This is where people get the idea that they need to create their own righteousness by saying that we develop our "own" righteousness.

This is what creates this self-righteousness/holiness mindset that is against the grace of God from operating in our lives like it should in order to develop in godliness. That will bring devastation to the Christian life that is in us.

That's why it is important to speak sound words like Paul says so that there is a clear sound. This helps for people to differentiate truths and help them to live by the life of Christ in them.

 

[Grace777x70]

If you've come to know Ariel, you know what she thinks and how she meant when she said it.

I know what she means because of other posts of hers in the past which is why I was shocked at the wording of "developing our own righteousness". I know she doesn't believe in us developing our own righteousness as a works-based mindset would believe it to mean.

 

[PeterJens]

When you talk of chaff, do you talk of yourself?

Yes my sister. You are talking to someone who from the age of 13 had to face
mental illness in the face, and a family who did not know how to express love, yet they
felt it.

If you realise how fragile the human condition is, how much turmoil we have within that
can tear us apart, you start to wonder what is solid and good and what is just fluff.

Now if I am just saying I am righteous, which is absurd, because only through Christs
work am I anything, then I would be chaff.

My heart is that we might walk deeper with each other as brothers and sisters in
Christ and know this one mind to love and serve one another to His glory. It is
my passion to form in words this reality to help lay the path that others might
follow and walk.

 

[PeterJens]

Developing godliness - walking righteously

We live in difficult times. I saw a video of a preacher saying, "Do not say I am blaspheming..."
and then continued into blasphemy.
I am not being a spiritualist but this dead brother wishes to tell you...
You may believe you are ok, but you are possessed by demons as believers...
We have authority in our words to bind illness to us by admiting we are ill...
The Lords prayer is old covenant and not for believers...

I have from conversion just followed Christ and His word. So all of the above is alien to me.
So I have a hard time linking anyone who opens their heart to these heresies as anything
but a false teacher. Jesus implies they are just rotten.

I am called to walk like Jesus. That seems simple and straight forward a proposition.
I am called to love those I would call enemies. This takes time to work through, because
it is not natural to me. But above all the light of my life, Jesus, asks me to be honest about
who I am, a saint who was a sinner saved by grace.

So does developing godliness mean walking righteously.
With the amount of antagonism and rejection raised by those who claim this path
I doubt this is their meaning.

In long conversations, they believe a righteous walk is impossible. I therefore have
good reason to doubt their pleadings, unless they have shifted their position,
which I am always hopeful of and desire that all men might be saved.

 

[Ariel82]

Yes my sister. You are talking to someone who from the age of 13 had to face
mental illness in the face, and a family who did not know how to express love, yet they
felt it.

If you realise how fragile the human condition is, how much turmoil we have within that
can tear us apart, you start to wonder what is solid and good and what is just fluff.

Now if I am just saying I am righteous, which is absurd, because only through Christs
work am I anything, then I would be chaff.

My heart is that we might walk deeper with each other as brothers and sisters in
Christ and know this one mind to love and serve one another to His glory. It is
my passion to form in words this reality to help lay the path that others might
follow and walk.

Well I love and call you brother..

But they want us to say "godliness" instead of "self righteousness" sigh...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I know what she means because of other posts of hers in the past which is why I was shocked at the wording of "developing our own righteousness". I know she doesn't believe in us developing our own righteousness as a works-based mindset would believe it to mean.

She never meant it that way. She meant it in the way of moving on and past imputed righteousness to actually walking uprightly. She never meant it as in any way apart from Christ and the Spirit in her.