How do you reconcile the first Commandment with the trinity?

[Webers.Home]

.
When the Word of John 1:1-3 came into the world as the flesh of John 1:14,
he didn't come here as a divine man, rather, as a Jewish man whose
biological origin can be easily traced all the way back to David and Abraham,
and from them to Eve, and from her to Adam, and from him to the very soil
that was used to create the first man per Gen 2:7, viz: the Word exists as a
divine being and a created being simultaneously, i.e. a spirit being and a
physical being both at the same time.

So then; how do we go about qualifying Mr. Jesus for Heaven and a seat at
God's right hand? . . him a human descended from Adam the same as all
other men?

Well; for those who don't know: try not to feel bad because the experts back
in Jesus' day couldn't figure it out either.

That's not all.

In order for Jesus to qualify for Melchizedek's high priesthood, he has to
be 1) a man, 2) an eternal being who had no beginning and has no end, and
3) had neither father nor mother. How do we deal with that?
_

 

[evyaniy]

Hebrews 1

Eight Points of Jesus’ Divine Reinstatement

In Hebrews one, the writer presents eight points of divine reinstatement. These represent a change of status from all of the things we saw Jesus surrender in Philippians 2:6-8. Philippians two saw him from the standpoint of the incarnation. The Hebrews writer presents him from the standpoint of his resurrection and ascension. The eight points of divine reinstatement will be examined according to the order in which they appear in the text.

• Reinstatement of the Divine Right of Possession – He is “Heir of all things,” verse 3. The ownership of all things has now passed to him. The uniqueness of this heirship resides in the fact that everything already belonged to him by right of creation from the beginning. Now, he is heir not only by right of creation for “He made the worlds,” he also heir by right of redemption, “He made purification for sin.” He not only created all things; he also purchased them back.
• Reinstatement of Divine Equality – “Exact representation of His nature,” verse 3. The equality of which he emptied himself in Philippians 2:6-7 is the same equality that is expressed by the Hebrews writer as representing God. This includes intrinsic attributes as well as moral character. Not only are the limitations of the natural world that were imposed upon his flesh lifted, but his moral character is no longer subject to vulnerability.
• Reinstatement of Divine Dignity – “Sit at My right hand…,” verse 3 and Psalms 110:1. This is the place of honor and authority. It is a place reserved exclusively for deity. The Lord is the one who sits at the right hand. This place is occupied only by divine invitation, “The Lord said…Sit at My right hand.” This is the place where relationship is confirmed for it is the Son who sits.
• Reinstatement of Divine Preeminence – “Today, I have begotten Thee.” verse five and Psalms 2:7. This refers to his resurrection. This is the installation of heavens’ King. The meaning of “Today” has received a number of speculative interpretations by commentators and expositors. In the third century AD, Origen said that “today” spoke of “that timeless ever-present, eternal day that Christ inhabits.” A.W. Pink regarded the use of “today” as a fixed point in linear time. While he was correct in this, I believe him to be incorrect in his application of the fixed point in time. He believed this to be the virgin birth and he applied this to Luke 2:11. But in Acts 13:31-38, the apostle Paul gives us the inspired explanation of Psalms 2:7. Paul quotes the Psalm and specifically points out that “today” refers to the resurrection of our Lord, “In that He raised Him from the dead.” Thus, the expression “today” does not refer to “that timeless ever-present, eternal day that Christ inhabits.” Nor does he link it to the virgin birth. The Hebrews writer qualifies “today” in four related statements that fix the point in time of this appointment. It was the time when he was “appointed heir,” when he “made purification for sin,” when he “sat down at the right hand,” and when he “inherited a more excellent name than they.” All of these were the result of his resurrection from the dead. “Begotten” – γεγέννηκά – is used in reference to men who beget children. It means to engender, to cause to rise. In the Jewish sense, it refers to one who brings others to his way of life. Thus, Jesus is the first in a new order of those who have embraced a new way of life, who share a common relationship with God. These shall also rise from the dead to eternal life, Colossians 1:18, (See Thayer's p 113).
• Reinstatement of Divine Privilege – “And let all the angels of God worship Him,” verse 6. This quote is found in the LXX translation of Deuteronomy 32:43 but is not found in most English translations of the Old Testament. The New American Bible 1971 quotes it as “glorify Him, all you angels of God.” (See also Isaiah 6:1-4 and Revelation 4:15). Receiving worship is a divinely exclusive privilege. Only God justly receives worship.
• Reinstatement of Divine Sovereignty – “Thy God has anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy companions.” verse 9. Who are these companions? I offer three possibilities. It has been suggested that “companions” may refer to the angels of verses four and five, but in relation to Jesus, angels are merely “ministers,” flames of fire.”
  • Could it be Christians? Christians are not any part of the context of chapter one. There is no justification for suggesting that Christians are implied here.
  • The most fitting candidate contextually would have to be fellow kings – This is far more likely. Notice the inferences.
  • “Your throne” as opposed to all other thrones which are temporal and will be left to others.
  • “Your scepter” as opposed to all other scepters whose judgments are not always just.
  • “Your kingdom” as opposed to all other kingdoms, none of which will stand forever.
  • His standard of rule as opposed to all other standards, “You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity….” Thus, he is appointed above all those who possess thrones, scepters, and kingdoms. He is truly King above all kings and Lord above all lords.
• Reinstatement of Divine Authority – “You shalt roll them up,” verse twelve and Psalms 102:26 and Isaiah 34:4. This is a set of contrasts. The nature of creation is temporal and mutable. They shall perish, become old. They shall be rolled up and changed – ἀλλαγήσονται; Not changed as in given a new form but changed and replaced with something else. That which is worn out is discarded. What replaces it is a heavenly dwelling place. In contrast to creation, Jesus is immutable, eternal, and external. He laid the foundations of creation, and he will be here after he brings it to an end, “You remain.” He is constant, never changing – “You are the same.” He is eternal “Your years shall not end.”
• Reinstatement of Divine Adjudication – “Your enemies a footstool for your feet,” verse thirteen. Notice the indicators of sovereignty in Psalms 110:1-7 from which this quote is taken. All of them have judicial implications.
  • “Sit at My right hand.”
  • "Enemies a footstool for Thy feet”
  • “Stretches forth His scepter.”
  • “Rule in the midst of His enemies”
  • “He will scatter the kings.”
  • “He will judge among the nations.”
  • “He will fill them with corpses.”
  • “He will scatter the chief men.”
  • “He will lift up His head.”

So, the One who surrendered all is now restored as Lord of all. The mission of the Second Position function for redemption is complete. Having retained his rightful place on heaven’s throne, he promises that all who will attend him will share in his inheritance, and he gives us the Holy Spirit as the certainty of that inheritance.

John declares in Revelation 11:15-19, “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!’ And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: ‘We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is to come, because You have taken Your great power and [have begun to reign]. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come (the day of reckoning is at hand), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Psalm 110 is critical to a number of Passages. It is the Holy Spirit speaking. Even Yeshua told us that David was speaking in the Spirit when He quoted Psalm 110:1. Of course Hebrews also quotes it showing some verses are the Father being quoted speaking to the Son. Here is Who is speaking in the Psalm. It shows Father Son and Spirit in conversation and being quoted.

Psalm 110
A Psalm by David.

(Spirit quotes Father to Son)

110:1 YHVH says to my 'Adown, “Sit at My right hand,
until I make Your enemies Your footstool for Your feet.”

(Spirit to Son)

110:2 YHVH will send forth
the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies.
110:3 Your people offer themselves willingly in
the day of Your power, in holy array.
Out of the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.

(Spirit quotes Father to Son)

110:4 YHVH has sworn, and will not change His mind:
“You are a Priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”

(Spirit to Father about Son)

110:5 The 'Adonay is at Your right hand.
He will crush kings in the day of His wrath.
110:6 He will judge among the nations.
He will heap up dead bodies.
He will crush the ruler of the whole earth.
110:7 He will drink of the brook in the way;
therefore He will lift up His head.

is that not awesome or what?

 

[bluto]

First of all am not a Pentecostal

Second a question

Where was that voice speaking from?

Fair enough your not a Oneness Pentecostal yet you believe the same as they do regarding Jesus being the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The voice according to Mark 1:11 states it came out of the heavens and the voice was that of God the Father. This is based on the fact that the verses says, "Thou are My beloved Son." So if as you say Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit would not the Father be talking to Himself since He is also the Son?

And notice Mark 1:12, the next verse. "And immediately the Spirit/Holy Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness." Now you have the Holy Spirit (who you say is Jesus) sending Himself out into the wilderness. So tell me, do you see anything wrong with this picture? Remember this, "God is "NEVER" illogical."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[evyaniy]

we should always be gentle with anyone who does not comprehend Father, Son and Spirit. Most of us do not understand it myself included. We are all learning and in various places in our development. What matters most is that we believe in the Son for the forgiveness of sins and what He did to save us. When we are getting ready to leave this world that is what is essential. There will be plenty of time to learn the rest in Eternal Life.

 

[TheLearner]

It appears to me that there is sufficient evidence to show that the supreme
being is capable of wearing more than one hat; and I suspect that maybe we
shouldn't be thinking of the supreme being as a person, rather, as an
extremely complex form of life that the human mind may not be able to
comprehend no matter how carefully it's explained in the simplest possible
language.

For example The Word-- as depicted in the Bible prior to its coming into the
world as a creature --is somehow a sentient form of radiance. (John 1:4-9,
cf. 1Tim 6:16, Heb 1:3, & Rev 21:23)

* According to the Bible, when Jesus returns; every eye shall see him. (Rev
1:7) I rather suspect he will be glowing very bright with an illumination
similar to the illumination that his friends saw radiating from him during the
so-called transfiguration; which Jesus explained was a glimpse of his
appearance during the kingdom age. In other words; when people see his
arrival, they won't actually see the man himself. Instead; they will see him
cloaked in something akin to a second Sun.
_

Nothing like the old JW, Arian lack of understanding.

John 1:1
K leist-Lilly New Testament: “When time began, the Word was there, and the Word was face to face with God, and the Word was God.”
Montgomery New Testament (Helen Brett Montgomery): “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was face to face with God, and the Word was God.”
New Testament in Plain English: “In the beginning the Word of God was there. And the Word was face to face with God, and the Word was God.”

Thayer in his lexicon or another work sees the "face to face" as correct in John 1:1.

1Co 13:12 - For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.

“not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.” ‭‭John‬ ‭6:46‬ ‭

https://scholar.csl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2998&context=ctm

If no one has seen the Father according to Jesus Himself

“No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.” ‭‭John‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭​

And

“not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.” ‭‭John‬ ‭6:46‬ ‭​

How then can the OT texts be reconciled where God was seen by multiple men over many ages and Jesus’ words remain true?
Jacob

“So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”” ‭‭Genesis‬ ‭32:30‬ ‭​

Job

“I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;” ‭‭Job‬ ‭42:5‬ ‭​

Isaiah

“In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord (Adonai) sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:1‬ ‭​

Micaiah

“And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord יהוה sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left;” ‭‭1 Kings‬ ‭22:19‬ ‭​

“The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭​

Jesus has sat in the Father’s throne whilst having His own. Daniel confirms there are thrones (plural) for God (Echad)

““As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.” ‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:9​

https://www.academia.edu/38318570/Defending_the_Deity_of_Christ_in_John_1_1a_and_1_1b
Williams New Testament: “In the beginning the Word existed; and the Word was face to face with God; yea, the Word was God Himself.”

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Listen to David

Psalm 110:1 The Lord (God the Father) said unto my Lord(Yeshua or SALVATION), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

So, God the Father is one Lord and Good the Redeemer is another Lord, he is Lord the Redeemer. Where those who can't seem to grasp the trinity concept go wrong is they are all ONE, but in essence only. They are Love, Hope, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Honor, Trustworthiness et al. But the Father has the abundance of the Glory.

If I knew where 50 million pounds of molten lava was at and threw a tree in it, it would be consumed, if I took one ounce of that lava and flicked it on the tree, nothing would happen except a smidge mark, then the lave would cool quickly. God the Father has the abundance of the Glory, until you grasp tat Jesus is not God the Father you will never get it.

Actually, the English Language Translation + prior translations butchered this up.

In the Hebrew, David is the the second lord, but it should read with lower case [M] for master.

1 Of David a psalm.
The word of the Lord to my master; "Wait for My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet."
אלְדָוִ֗ד מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר נְאֻ֚ם יְהֹוָ֨ה | לַֽאדֹנִ֗י שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י עַד־אָשִׁ֥ית אֹֽ֜יְבֶ֗יךָ הֲדֹ֣ם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ:

The English translation, of the 10th Century Latin Vulgate to Greek and then to English [Erasmus/Textus Receptus] severely messed a few key Verses up.

 

[TheLearner]

https://christiandefense.org/tag/john-11/
https://carm.org/about-god/what-doe...n-it-says-that-they-will-see-the-face-of-god/
No one has ever seen God. Except 74 ancient Hebrews. https:https://religion.masto.host/@txab//www.christalmighty.net/2018/07/seen.html
https://religion.masto.host/@txab
A possible solution: https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/has-anyone-seen-god-or-not/
https://apologeticspress.org/seeing-god-face-to-face-2682/
https://bible.org/question/light-gen-38-10-and-exo-3317-33-how-can-you-say-“no-man-can-see-god”
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1301.cfm
Watchtower screws up by claiming they saw G_d via vision. The texts themselves rules that out. https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/see-god/ None of the texts say they saw G-d in a vision.
https://www.gotquestions.org/seen-God.html
more possible solutions https://answersingenesis.org/contradictions-in-the-bible/has-anyone-seen-god/
Personally, it may be one in sinful flesh, unsaved can not see God.

 

[TheLearner]

https://www.forananswer.org/ABC_index.htm

 

[TheLearner]

does the Son being a Man distinguish Him from the Father and Holy Spirit?

Me: while on earth, yes being fully God and fully Man. I am not sure after the Resurrection.

A couple verses that come to mind.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For EL, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of EL in the face of Yeshua Messiah.

Me: Cool

Colossians 1

15 He(the Son) is the image of the invisible EL, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, visible things and invisible things, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together. 18 He is the head of the body, the assembly, Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might have the preeminence. 19 For all the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by Him, whether things on the earth or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Me: firstborn in this case has the meaning of preeminent over all that was created.
More insights:
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians 1:15
"The first-born of every creature - I suppose this phrase to mean the same as that, Phi 2:9 : God hath given him a name which is above every name; he is as man at the head of all the creation of God; nor can he with any propriety be considered as a creature, having himself created all things, and existed before any thing was made. If it be said that God created him first, and that he, by a delegated power from God, created all things, this is most flatly contradicted by the apostle’s reasoning in the 16th and 17th verses. As the Jews term Jehovah becoro shel olam, the first-born of all the world, or of all the creation, to signify his having created or produced all things; (see Wolfius in loc.) so Christ is here termed, and the words which follow in the 16th and 17th verses are the proof of this. The phraseology is Jewish; and as they apply it to the supreme Being merely to denote his eternal pre-existence, and to point him out as the cause of all things; it is most evident that St. Paul uses it in the same way, and illustrates his meaning in the following words, which would be absolutely absurd if we could suppose that by the former he intended to convey any idea of the inferiority of Jesus Christ (Clarke). "
https://www.forananswer.org/Colossians/Col1_15.htm
https://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/Keay.Col1_15.htm


Your understanding is appreciated. Thank you for the time you spent and explanations you provided on the previous posts as well.
Your welcome friend, brother. Daniel

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I don't cherry pick Verses to make a Doctrine, because, it's always taken out of Original Context, to begin with. Verses like Psalms 110:1 and many many others.

Why I believe God is Triune, not because of Persons, Manifestations, or making something fit that you gotta be rounding off the edges, because, The WORD, the Physical Image, to the Invisible God, SAID: Father-Son-Holy Spirit.

I, because I truly will never know, THIS SIDE of Heaven, don't care, HOW, God exists as Father-Son-Holy Spirit. I just CARE, because God, is My God, and I know He is My Father, My Lord and Savior, and He [God] lives inside of me and is connected to me through His Spirit.

And I have His Promises and Blessings!

I don't need to know What God is, I just need to Know I am One of His.

 

[TheLearner]

this passage also

Hebrews 2

5 For He(the Father) didn’t subject the world to come, of which we speak, to angels. 6 But one has somewhere testified, saying,
“What is man, that You think of him?
Or the Son of man, that You care for Him?
7 You made Him(the Son) a little lower than the angels.
You crowned Him with glory and honor.
8 You have put all things in subjection under His feet.”*
For in that He(the Father) subjected all things to Him(the Son), He left nothing that is not subject to Him(the Son). But now we don’t yet see all things subjected to Him. 9 But we see Him Who has been made a little lower than the angels, Yeshua, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of EL He should taste of death for everyone.
10 For it became Him, for Whom are all things and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Again, your understanding of these passages would be appreciated. Thank you

People position wise are lower than the angels, who daily travel to heaven.

In the end, he was


Philippians 2

Easy-to-Read Version



Be United and Care for Each Other
2 Think about what we have in Christ: the encouragement he has brought us, the comfort of his love, our sharing in his Spirit, and the mercy and kindness he has shown us. If you enjoy these blessings, 2 then do what will make my joy complete: Agree with each other, and show your love for each other. Be united in your goals and in the way you think. 3 In whatever you do, don’t let selfishness or pride be your guide. Be humble, and honor others more than yourselves. 4 Don’t be interested only in your own life, but care about the lives of others too.
Learn From Christ to Be Unselfish
5 In your life together, think the way Christ Jesus thought.
6 He was like God in every way,
but he did not think that his being equal with God was something to use for his own benefit.
7 Instead, he gave up everything, even his place with God.
He accepted the role of a servant, appearing in human form.
During his life as a man,
8 he humbled himself by being fully obedient to God,
even when that caused his death—death on a cross.
9 So God raised him up to the most important place
and gave him the name that is greater than any other name.
10 God did this so that every person will bow down to honor the name of Jesus.
Everyone in heaven, on earth, and under the earth will bow.
11 They will all confess, “Jesus Christ is Lord,”
and this will bring glory to God the Father.

 

[TheLearner]

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

John/Yahanan 17:17-24, “Set them apart in Your truth – Your Word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world. And for them I set Myself apart, so that they too might be set apart in truth. That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me, I have given them; that they may be in unity, just as We are in unity. I in them, and You in Me--so that they may be made perfect in unity; and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them, as You have loved Me. Father, it is My will that they, whom You gave Me, also be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”

1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

Being in Him we can do His will;

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."

I understand greater than me as being Rank in the Godhead. It could also be Rank related to Jesus being fully God by nature and fully human.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

does the Son being a Man distinguish Him from the Father and Holy Spirit?

Me: while on earth, yes being fully God and fully Man. I am not sure after the Resurrection.

A couple verses that come to mind.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For EL, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of EL in the face of Yeshua Messiah.

Me: Cool

Colossians 1

15 He(the Son) is the image of the invisible EL, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, visible things and invisible things, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together. 18 He is the head of the body, the assembly, Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might have the preeminence. 19 For all the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by Him, whether things on the earth or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Me: firstborn in this case has the meaning of preeminent over all that was created.
More insights:
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Colossians 1:15
"The first-born of every creature - I suppose this phrase to mean the same as that, Phi 2:9 : God hath given him a name which is above every name; he is as man at the head of all the creation of God; nor can he with any propriety be considered as a creature, having himself created all things, and existed before any thing was made. If it be said that God created him first, and that he, by a delegated power from God, created all things, this is most flatly contradicted by the apostle’s reasoning in the 16th and 17th verses. As the Jews term Jehovah becoro shel olam, the first-born of all the world, or of all the creation, to signify his having created or produced all things; (see Wolfius in loc.) so Christ is here termed, and the words which follow in the 16th and 17th verses are the proof of this. The phraseology is Jewish; and as they apply it to the supreme Being merely to denote his eternal pre-existence, and to point him out as the cause of all things; it is most evident that St. Paul uses it in the same way, and illustrates his meaning in the following words, which would be absolutely absurd if we could suppose that by the former he intended to convey any idea of the inferiority of Jesus Christ (Clarke). "
https://www.forananswer.org/Colossians/Col1_15.htm
https://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/Keay.Col1_15.htm


Your understanding is appreciated. Thank you for the time you spent and explanations you provided on the previous posts as well.
Your welcome friend, brother. Daniel

the Son is the WORD made flesh.
and we know the Father dwells inside the WORD made flesh doing the works.
and we know if this is how the Father did it in the New Testament, He probably did is the same in the Old Testament. The WORD made flesh before Creation like Moses, Abraham, etc, but the Father is dwelling in the WORD doing His Works.

It's ALWAYS the WORKS of the FATHER being fulfilled and the Father dwelling in the WORD made flesh carrying out the Plan.

 

[Rondonmon]

Actually, the English Language Translation + prior translations butchered this up.

In the Hebrew, David is the the second lord, but it should read with lower case [M] for master.

1 Of David a psalm.
The word of the Lord to my master; "Wait for My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet."
אלְדָוִ֗ד מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר נְאֻ֚ם יְהֹוָ֨ה | לַֽאדֹנִ֗י שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י עַד־אָשִׁ֥ית אֹֽ֜יְבֶ֗יךָ הֲדֹ֣ם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ:

The English translation, of the 10th Century Latin Vulgate to Greek and then to English [Erasmus/Textus Receptus] severely messed a few key Verses up.

We know Jesus sits at the Right Hand of the Father, so all of your effort is just wasted effort brother. Jesus is God the Redeemer, not God the Father. It is that simple.

 

[TheLearner]

If the Son is the "Image of the invisible EL(God, Theos, Elohim, etc)" does that also mean He, the Son, as a Man, is the visible Image of EL(God, Theos, Elohim, etc)?

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

I understand image simply meaning his divine, God Nature.

https://www.forananswer.org/Colossians/Col1_15.htm

 

[TheLearner]

Just mentioning this more about Calvary Chapel than their explanation of the trinity.
I live in a State that is Left Winged and does not promote anything Godly. However, the biggest Church Denomination is Calvary Chapel and it's supportive enough to have a Radio Station and broadcast. So, any time I am driving, I am listening to several of the Preachers and how they go from Genesis to Revelation and do it again and again until they die. How Chuck Smith did it. He, obviously, was their Top Dog of this Movement.

Personally, I don't think this Movement represents the Book of Acts, and many of the Scriptural Interpretations don't align and in some places just Out There.

I see how they took out of context meaning and applied the Greek Meaning to many Old Testament references. Most of their Churches use the KJV or NKJV and the Septuagint translation is an adulterated 10th Century Latin Vulgate, that had already destroyed the Work of Jerome, by adding baloney in both Testaments [CATHOLIC PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE]. Even Erasmus pointed this out because his Textus Receptus was based upon the 10th Century Version of the Latin Vulgate.

So, I don't buy a great portion of this explanation AT ALL!

It really does not align to even the 385 AD, and definitely NOWHERE close to the 325 AD, Creeds.

Brother Bowman is not part of their church. I use that link because it gives the full pdf of his outline.
https://wit.irr.org/search/node/outline trinity
https://irr.org/search/node/bowman
"
My name is Robert M. Bowman Jr., and I generally go by the name Rob. I am an evangelical Christian biblical scholar and apologist (the two are not mutually exclusive!), married with four children. In the far right column under “All Rob’s Links” you can find me and my work on various other websites including IRR.org, Facebook, and more.

I am also the president of Faith Thinkers. This blog is part of Faith Thinkers, a nonprofit ministry. Please visit our website and consider supporting our work."
https://robertbowman.net/about/

https://robertbowman.net/

 

[TheLearner]

He is also an apologetics author https://www.amazon.com/stores/Rober...ramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true

 

[TheLearner]

There are considerable problems here.

Why did you not consider Gen. 1:26, just one verse prior to the passage you’re commenting on, which places the word “likeness” in juxtaposition to “image”? Neither of these two terms are used in Ezekiel 1:5, therefore, why bring it up?

Genesis 1:26-28
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image [b-tsal’menu], according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

God created man in His own image [b-tsal’mow], in the image of God [b-tselem Elohim] He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.

Further, in the Greek versions (LXX, Aquila, Symmachus, etc.) of the OT, the term used is εἰκών ("image"), from which we get the word, “icon.” However, in the Greek witnesses of Ezekiel, completely different Greek terms are used.

The problem you face is quite a common one: You're conflating ideas into terms, and thereby, losing all meaning and nuances.

Though “likeness” may contain some of the nuances of “image/icon”; one cannot just turn the blind eye to the data points where the two diverge. Yes, εἰκών may carry some of the “baggage,” but it does not quite carry all of it. In order to say they are equivocal, they need to be able to check off all the boxes. You’re only concerned about the data points where the two terms agree; I’m simply pointing at the disparities (the data points where the terms disagree).

For example, take the word “appearance,” and the word, “aura.” “Aura,” though it may contain some nuances akin to that of “appearance,” it is not a semantical one-to-one equivalent. Whereas “appearance” may refer to the manner in which someone visibly appears to the minds eye; “aura,” on the other hand, may reflect ones perception of qualities that emanate from a person.

Think of it like this: Imagine (pun intended!) a sliding scale that goes 0 to 100, and as it gets closer to 100, the deeper its color gets. If we place both terms (“appearance” and “aura”) on that scale their shades may differ in hue. One term’s hue may shade deeper than the other.

Further, imagery from the Genesis creation mandate permeates the letter to the Colossians. In v. 6, Paul declares that “in all the world” the gospel is “bearing fruit and growing.” Similarly, in v. 10 Paul exhorts the Colossians to “bear fruit” in their efforts and “grow” in their knowledge. If you aren’t catching what Paul is laying down: This language echoes the commission of Genesis 1:28 to “be fruitful and multiply.” Likewise, in 1:15 and 3:10, Paul picks up on Imago Dei language to coincide with Gen. 1:26. In ancient correspondences such as “Letters from Assyrian Scholars to the Kings Esarhaddon and Assurbanipal,” King Esarhaddon is addressed as, “the very image of Bel.” In Wisdom 14:15-21, the distant king is represented locally through the presence of his “image.” The Macedonian (Ptolemaic) king Philopator was referred to as “the image of god.” In Themistocles 125, the Persian king is also referred to as, “the image of god.”

Paul’s use of the Imago Dei is consistent with the Ancient Near East practice of referring to kings, authorities, or rulers as the “image” of the one whom they represent.

With all that said, why do you find it necessary to run to Ezekiel 1:5, when what you should be doing is trying to demonstrate some kind of formal connection (thematic, verbal, or intertextual) back to Gen. 1? You made the common man’s mistake of intending to flip to another occurrence (where a term may or may not have been used in such manner), and tried to import that meaning back into the text when there are no conceptual ties. But first, you should try citing a text (not Ezekiel 1:5) that uses the same terms. And then you need to demonstrate the conceptual ties. Only then would you’d be able to import that meaning back into the text.

How did he confuse a Hebrew word with a Greek word?
https://www.forananswer.org/Colossians/Col1_15.htm

 

[TheLearner]

I didn;t run to Ezekiyl, a member here posted Ez verse and I commented on their post that the word tselem could mean physical but could also mean other charicteristics.

Genesis 1:26-27, “And Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image (H6754), according to Our likeness (H1823), and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the livestock, and over all the earth and over all the creeping creatures that creep on the ground. And Elohim created the man in His image (H6754), in the image (H6754) of Elohim He created him – male and female He created them.”

H6754 צֶלֶם tselem (tseh'-lem) n-m.
1. a phantom., 2. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance., 3. (hence) a representative figure., 4. (especially) an idol. [from an unused root meaning to shade] KJV: image, vain shew.

#H1823 - demuth: likeness, similitude, Original Word: דְּמוּת, Part of Speech: noun feminine, Transliteration: demuth, Phonetic Spelling: (dem-ooth'), Definition: likeness, similitude,

I didnt go further becaue it is not a topic I have spent a long time on, I study something out, find a conclusion, then leave it alone for 6 or more months and come back to it, study it from the beginning like I have no prior knowledge and if I come to the same conclusion I will speak on it and continue to study it. If I have not done this I usually dont go too deep unless its a very simpe topic

Sorry about my last post Brother, friend. I thought you confused the two words. image in Col 1:15 the the Hebrew words for image.

 

[TheLearner]

Easy: This one (and the Other associated texts listed in the post).

John 1:1 "the Word face to face with God"
Everywhere where Jesus says God is his Father.
Check out Bowman's outline on the Trinity https://bib.irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity