How does a person get into the ' body of Christ ' ?

[throughfaith]

"Vacant of spiritual insight, a lost soul or a non believer, many have a hard heart that simply cannot
be reached. I have learned, it is not wise to throw 'religious' idea's upon a person with a hard heart, they are turned off
from the get go. Each personality is unique, and unless you feel adequately and spiritually grounded, a lost
soul requires love and patience. Many paths have crossed my path, I have learned to share how God's principles
of life have changed my life, and it can others, so long as they want it bad enough. I had to change my attitude
and behavior, to come to realize the Holy Spirit within...and this I have shared with many, to be the example, and
not the problem. The choice, being upon each individual...no more...no less."
( my thoughts from this side of the glass )

View attachment 226108

I like this answer . I agree that each person is an individual and we need to hear where they are at . The Gospel isn't a magic spell phrase that we just throw at people. No we may need to spend time with that person .

 

[birdie]

I believe that's an error. If we look at the scriptures we see the apostles reasoning and instructing people from the scriptures how to be saved . And I don't see anywhere in the bible that says man is predestined to be saved . I think this is a mistake some make by being taught a certain set of doctrines . From the scripture we see after a person believes then they are predestined to the Adoption. Eph 1.5 ,Rom 8.23 ( kjv )The bible is clear that God has given the command to people to follow and when that criteria is met ,then he saves . Today this would be the Gospel of grace. If we look at the bereans in Acts for example ,we see they search the scriptures. They are actively seeking out the things they have been told and seeing if they are true. They are reasoned with by the Scriptures on the Gospel. They believe and are saved . This is exactly the same today. We can reason with people from the scriptures. They can believe . My question is what are we telling them on how to be saved ?

Thanks throughfaith. We disagree. I think it is common for man to like to think that he is in control and not God. Further, many groups claiming to be from God, use this idea to say that they are the ones who decide. If you meet their criteria, they say you are saved. But this is really a works philosophy. It is true that those who are saved meet certain criteria, but it is God who who enables them, who created them after himself so to speak. Ephesians 1:5 that you mention does not read in a way that I see as bolstering your point. Rather, the verse before it (Eph 1.4) says that God chose the true believers before the foundation of the world. Remember how scripture mentions that Jacob and Essau, before they had done anything good or bad, were approached differently. God mentions Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated. And so it is by election. Further, Romans 8:23 does not seem to bolster your point either. It simply says we groan in the Spirit waiting for adoption. Such a person has been given the Spirit by God's initiative. The idea of the Sabbath is a case in point. The big deal about what the Sabbath represents is that God does all the work of salvation and we only rest in that sense. There is a case in the Old Testament of a person being stoned to death for just picking up sticks on the Sabbath. This is simply a picture illustrating how if we try to save ourselves or others by our own efforts, we are not saved. It is God who does all of the work of salvation. Now, can a true believer reason with someone from the scriptures and that person be saved. Yes, of course. But it would be an act of God that the person believed the scriptures, not his or the readers own strength that their heart was opened.

 

[throughfaith]

Thanks throughfaith. We disagree. I think it is common for man to like to think that he is in control and not God. Further, many groups claiming to be from God, use this idea to say that they are the ones who decide. If you meet their criteria, they say you are saved. But this is really a works philosophy. It is true that those who are saved meet certain criteria, but it is God who who enables them, who created them after himself so to speak. Ephesians 1:5 that you mention does not read in a way that I see as bolstering your point. Rather, the verse before it (Eph 1.4) says that God chose the true believers before the foundation of the world. Remember how scripture mentions that Jacob and Essau, before they had done anything good or bad, were approached differently. God mentions Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated. And so it is by election. Further, Romans 8:23 does not seem to bolster your point either. It simply says we groan in the Spirit waiting for adoption. Such a person has been given the Spirit by God's initiative. The idea of the Sabbath is a case in point. The big deal about what the Sabbath represents is that God does all the work of salvation and we only rest in that sense. There is a case in the Old Testament of a person being stoned to death for just picking up sticks on the Sabbath. This is simply a picture illustrating how if we try to save ourselves or others by our own efforts, we are not saved. It is God who does all of the work of salvation. Now, can a true believer reason with someone from the scriptures and that person be saved. Yes, of course. But it would be an act of God that the person believed the scriptures, not his or the readers own strength that their heart was opened.

I agree with most of what your saying. And that's a great point you made here // Further, many groups claiming to be from God, use this idea to say that they are the ones who decide. If you meet their criteria, they say you are saved.// Thats a great point and I agree with that.
were we disagree is on this term ' enabling ' . Which probably comes down to a Particular view on the T in Tulip ( correct me if I'm wrong ) ?
The situation with Jacob and Essau seen in a certain light could bolster that view . I read whenever someone is ' Elect ' or chosen Like Jesus , Israel, Jacob , Essau, Paul ect this is all done in time , and its for service ,purpose ect.
The moment I began to see predestination and election separately and District from each other, then I could make sense of them when the word shows up . I used to think I had to pick either the Arminain view or the Calvinist view and that was it . But I realised both are basically following the same error . The error is where we have God choosing to be saved , before we existed .
On rom 8.23 . Yes it says we are waiting for the adoption , then it tells you what the adoption is . The redemption of the body.
The sealing of the Holy Spirit which is the ' Spirit OF ' adoption is the Gurantee until the adoption happens . This of course refutes the idea you can lose your salvation. How can you lose salvation when God has sealed you unto the day of redemption, predestinating you to it ? Impossible.
Again though ,both Calvinism and Arminism teach that the adoption is like the western idea ,where we get adopted at conversion. Like when a family adopts a child .

 

[throughfaith]

Thanks throughfaith. We disagree. I think it is common for man to like to think that he is in control and not God. Further, many groups claiming to be from God, use this idea to say that they are the ones who decide. If you meet their criteria, they say you are saved. But this is really a works philosophy. It is true that those who are saved meet certain criteria, but it is God who who enables them, who created them after himself so to speak. Ephesians 1:5 that you mention does not read in a way that I see as bolstering your point. Rather, the verse before it (Eph 1.4) says that God chose the true believers before the foundation of the world. Remember how scripture mentions that Jacob and Essau, before they had done anything good or bad, were approached differently. God mentions Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated. And so it is by election. Further, Romans 8:23 does not seem to bolster your point either. It simply says we groan in the Spirit waiting for adoption. Such a person has been given the Spirit by God's initiative. The idea of the Sabbath is a case in point. The big deal about what the Sabbath represents is that God does all the work of salvation and we only rest in that sense. There is a case in the Old Testament of a person being stoned to death for just picking up sticks on the Sabbath. This is simply a picture illustrating how if we try to save ourselves or others by our own efforts, we are not saved. It is God who does all of the work of salvation. Now, can a true believer reason with someone from the scriptures and that person be saved. Yes, of course. But it would be an act of God that the person believed the scriptures, not his or the readers own strength that their heart was opened.

On the ' enabling 'thing . Again this is where my past experiences with Calvinism and Arminianism ( which I essentially see as basically a similar system . As it comes from the same pot ) This again is where some are forced into the dichotomy of the either or bubble. Either you have to believe that Grace is irresistible or resistible . This is the same false dichotomy people are led into with 'election '. Either you have to accept unconditional or conditional election . But both errors are made with the assumption of the T in Tulip . That we need a partial regeneration in some sense . As Sproul famously said " At the heart of reformed theology is this axiom , ' regeneration preceds faith '"
Now this turns the Gospel into a magic spell phrase ,where we expect if we are speaking to a 'chosen ' one ,they will be activated by it . The problem is for me is the bible literally doesn't say any of this that Calvinists and Arminians teach .

 

[birdie]

Thanks throughfaith. You seem to be coming up with the notion that the elect is a sub-group of those who are saved, who specifically have a certain task? Correct me if I am putting words in your mouth. When I read Matthew 24:24: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. " I see this as saying that false teachings will almost deceive those who are saved. The term elect to me is synonymous with all those who are saved, not a subgroup of special persons. We can see this a few verses later in Matthew 24:31 where we read that "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. " The elect are all of heaven here, from one end to the other. These are those whom God has predestined to be saved.
Best wishes to you. Do you also agree?

 

[John146]

I like this answer . I agree that each person is an individual and we need to hear where they are at . The Gospel isn't a magic spell phrase that we just throw at people. No we may need to spend time with that person .

The preaching of the cross is powerful and saves. My ability to live it out should not be a convincing factor of someone getting saved. Sometimes, all we have is but a moment. Preach the gospel and let God give the increase.

 

[Scribe]

Galatians 3:26-27
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Faith is a spiritual thing that God can detect. If you have faith in Christ Jesus the Bible says you're spiritually baptized into Jesus. God takes care of the rest.

1 Corinthians 3:1
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Just to make sure we eliminate any possibility that we can earn our ticket into the body of Christ by being "good enough" at least one example is in order.

1 Cor. 3:1 says that even worldly Christians are still in Christ. Paul refers to worldly, unspiritual, Christians as babies who are in Christ. The only qualifier to be in Christ is having faith. The Holy Spirit will gradually transform those who are baptized into Christ from one glory to another by progressive sanctification. (2 Cor. 3:18, Hebrews 10:14)

The reason Paul said they were carnal was that their were divisions among them not because they were worldly. I am not trying to split hairs but sometimes I hear people talk as if they think that Paul said willfully indulging in the lusts of the flesh because you don't want to give up the pleasure of sin is a carnal Christian. But that is not what he was talking about.

1 Cor 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

So it is true that many of those who fall into the sin of arguing with strangers on the internet here on CC are carnal Christians, it is not true that this is OK.

 

[throughfaith]

Thanks throughfaith. You seem to be coming up with the notion that the elect is a sub-group of those who are saved, who specifically have a certain task? Correct me if I am putting words in your mouth. When I read Matthew 24:24: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. " I see this as saying that false teachings will almost deceive those who are saved. The term elect to me is synonymous with all those who are saved, not a subgroup of special persons. We can see this a few verses later in Matthew 24:31 where we read that "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. " The elect are all of heaven here, from one end to the other. These are those whom God has predestined to be saved.
Best wishes to you. Do you also agree?

In both cases the term ' elect ' refers to Israel / Jews .
Again you have Predestinated to salvation. No verse says that . Its predestined to the redemption of the body AFTER one is converted ( saved/ regenerated)

 

[throughfaith]

Thanks throughfaith. You seem to be coming up with the notion that the elect is a sub-group of those who are saved, who specifically have a certain task? Correct me if I am putting words in your mouth. When I read Matthew 24:24: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. " I see this as saying that false teachings will almost deceive those who are saved. The term elect to me is synonymous with all those who are saved, not a subgroup of special persons. We can see this a few verses later in Matthew 24:31 where we read that "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. " The elect are all of heaven here, from one end to the other. These are those whom God has predestined to be saved.
Best wishes to you. Do you also agree?

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

 

[pottersclay]

Is that what you tell a lost person?

Saint we are the body of Christ. Now to be found in Christ now that's a different story.

 

[throughfaith]

Saint we are the body of Christ. Now to be found in Christ now that's a different story.

The op is how does a person ( who is not a believer) Get into the body of Christ ?

 

[birdie]

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

Thanks throughfaith. This seems to be the area that we disagree about what the term election means. I'll quote you: "
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)" I looked up those 3 verses and I don't see them as saying that they do not pertain to salvation. Isa 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. " This is talking about Jesus. It is also including those who are a part of Jesus through the spirit, but emphasizing Jesus here. It does not say elect is not about salvation. It says the elect is the one who has the spirit, brings judgment to the Gentiles, who is upheld by God, who God delights in - all characteristics of a saved person.
Acts 9:15: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: " This also is describing a saved person. The person is chosen meaning saved. Remember how many are called but few chosen. In other words, few are saved. Remember how those who are saved enter the narrow gate and are few, but those who don't are many.

Romans 1128: "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. " This also is contrasting the saved with the unsaved, not a service issue. Those who are unsaved in nation of Israel do not discredit the fact that there were those who were saved from the nation of Israel, so that those who are saved of that nation are still beloved and saved, even if presently there are those of that nation who are unsaved. Paul said God forbid that some people in Israel couldn't be saved or else he wouldn't be able to.

 

[Scribe]

Simple question .
How we tell others this crucial thing of how to get into the body of Christ?

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

 

[John146]

The reason Paul said they were carnal was that their were divisions among them not because they were worldly. I am not trying to split hairs but sometimes I hear people talk as if they think that Paul said willfully indulging in the lusts of the flesh because you don't want to give up the pleasure of sin is a carnal Christian. But that is not what he was talking about.

1 Cor 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

So it is true that many of those who fall into the sin of arguing with strangers on the internet here on CC are carnal Christians, it is not true that this is OK.

The Corinthians were allowing fornication among them as well and failed to address it properly.

 

[Scribe]

Simple question .
How we tell others this crucial thing of how to get into the body of Christ?

Now pay attention:

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Even though it will be argued about I will follow the scriptural pattern and teach that Baptism in water is included in these references to Baptism in the scriptures as it relates to being added to the church. We see that in Acts 2 which sets the pattern. Though it is definitely the invisible faith related spiritual aspect of that act that is also emphasized nevertheless the reference to baptism in water is included and often simply assumed since baptism in water was a normal thing that was taught, practiced and every Christian took part, There is of course an invisible spiritual reality of what the Spirit does in the heart of the believer in adding him/her to the church. As a matter of fact baptism in water was a matter of immediate urgency in the New Testament but has become almost a "when you get around to it" option today that should be restored without putting more emphasis on the act than faith in Jesus. Now y'all can go ahead and argue about it, I am not confused and I won't waste time arguing about it. I will just baptize new converts and let the arguers argue about it until Jesus comes, meanwhile new converts will be getting baptized in water in my church every Sunday, or at least that is one of the goals.

 

[throughfaith]

Thanks throughfaith. This seems to be the area that we disagree about what the term election means. I'll quote you: "
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)" I looked up those 3 verses and I don't see them as saying that they do not pertain to salvation. Isa 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. " This is talking about Jesus. It is also including those who are a part of Jesus through the spirit, but emphasizing Jesus here. It does not say elect is not about salvation. It says the elect is the one who has the spirit, brings judgment to the Gentiles, who is upheld by God, who God delights in - all characteristics of a saved person.
Acts 9:15: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: " This also is describing a saved person. The person is chosen meaning saved. Remember how many are called but few chosen. In other words, few are saved. Remember how those who are saved enter the narrow gate and are few, but those who don't are many.

Romans 1128: "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. " This also is contrasting the saved with the unsaved, not a service issue. Those who are unsaved in nation of Israel do not discredit the fact that there were those who were saved from the nation of Israel, so that those who are saved of that nation are still beloved and saved, even if presently there are those of that nation who are unsaved. Paul said God forbid that some people in Israel couldn't be saved or else he wouldn't be able to.

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect,
Whos elect ? Who's chosen ? and to do what?

 

[throughfaith]

Thanks throughfaith. This seems to be the area that we disagree about what the term election means. I'll quote you: "
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)" I looked up those 3 verses and I don't see them as saying that they do not pertain to salvation. Isa 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. " This is talking about Jesus. It is also including those who are a part of Jesus through the spirit, but emphasizing Jesus here. It does not say elect is not about salvation. It says the elect is the one who has the spirit, brings judgment to the Gentiles, who is upheld by God, who God delights in - all characteristics of a saved person.
Acts 9:15: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: " This also is describing a saved person. The person is chosen meaning saved. Remember how many are called but few chosen. In other words, few are saved. Remember how those who are saved enter the narrow gate and are few, but those who don't are many.

Romans 1128: "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. " This also is contrasting the saved with the unsaved, not a service issue. Those who are unsaved in nation of Israel do not discredit the fact that there were those who were saved from the nation of Israel, so that those who are saved of that nation are still beloved and saved, even if presently there are those of that nation who are unsaved. Paul said God forbid that some people in Israel couldn't be saved or else he wouldn't be able to.

What does THIS text actually say though ?
Acts 9:15: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: "
Again,
1 who is chosen ?
2To do what?

 

[throughfaith]

Thanks throughfaith. This seems to be the area that we disagree about what the term election means. I'll quote you: "
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)" I looked up those 3 verses and I don't see them as saying that they do not pertain to salvation. Isa 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. " This is talking about Jesus. It is also including those who are a part of Jesus through the spirit, but emphasizing Jesus here. It does not say elect is not about salvation. It says the elect is the one who has the spirit, brings judgment to the Gentiles, who is upheld by God, who God delights in - all characteristics of a saved person.
Acts 9:15: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: " This also is describing a saved person. The person is chosen meaning saved. Remember how many are called but few chosen. In other words, few are saved. Remember how those who are saved enter the narrow gate and are few, but those who don't are many.

Romans 1128: "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. " This also is contrasting the saved with the unsaved, not a service issue. Those who are unsaved in nation of Israel do not discredit the fact that there were those who were saved from the nation of Israel, so that those who are saved of that nation are still beloved and saved, even if presently there are those of that nation who are unsaved. Paul said God forbid that some people in Israel couldn't be saved or else he wouldn't be able to.

Again what does the text say ?
Romans 1128: "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

So we have touching the ' election ' they are beloved for the fathers sake .
So about the election THEY are beloved . But concerning the Gospel they are enemies. So we have those elected because of the fathers sake ,enemies reguarding the Gospel .
The primary understanding is within the surrounding text , the chapter within the book first ,then we can look outside that book for scripture to support . Your doing the reverse. Your coming to the text with baggage. " we know this means that because of this wayyyyyyy over here in this book wayyyyyyy over here that this means that "

 

[Scribe]

The Corinthians were allowing fornication among them as well and failed to address it properly.

That was one of the issues he addressed but it does not change the sentence structure of what I posted as to what he referred to as carnal. The context was 1) they were dividing over schisms such as trying to make differences between what Paul, Apollos, and Peter taught and this was the examples he gave about them being carnal. The actual full context and this requires a little background knowledge, was that they were getting carried away about the Greek sophists an their love for philosophical wisdom and rhetoric and puffed up about their "knowledge" that was not the knowledge of the Spirit at all, and Paul spent quite a bit of time making his point that they were not as wise as they thought and had missed the target and were carnal in their reasoning.

These threads where people argue over stupid things are much more an example of the kind of Carnal Paul was talking about when he references the word carnal if you look at the immediate sentences and context where he uses it.

 

[John146]

That was one of the issues he addressed but it does not change the sentence structure of what I posted as to what he referred to as carnal. The context was 1) they were dividing over schisms such as trying to make differences between what Paul, Apollos, and Peter taught and this was the examples he gave about them being carnal. The actual full context and this requires a little background knowledge, was that they were getting carried away about the Greek sophists an their love for philosophical wisdom and rhetoric and puffed up about their "knowledge" that was not the knowledge of the Spirit at all, and Paul spent quite a bit of time making his point that they were not as wise as they thought and had missed the target and were carnal in their reasoning.

These threads where people argue over stupid things are much more an example of the kind of Carnal Paul was talking about when he references the word carnal if you look at the immediate sentences and context where he uses it.

Agreed, to be a carnal Christian is to be immature in the word, babes in Christ. Being carnal will not allow one to understand the deeper things of God.