How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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What are you talking about?



Hi Jag,

I am referring to what the topic is supposed to be about..thats why I was asking you what you meant in relation to the topic..once again here it is:


"How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice"

1) what is God's justice, how is God Just
2)what is freewill salvation - mans will
3)how does free will salvation 'pervert' God's justice - it may or may not?
 
How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice ! 4


Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Unbelief is part of the death package for sin. The reason why men are
in unbelief or disobedience as per Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Its an consequence of their sin, for unbelief is a symptom of death spiritual and imprisonment.

When in Unbelief or disobedience we are in a imprisonment, enclosed in, meaning that we are totally separated/alienated from the Life of God. We are enclosed in apart from the life of God. We have no participation of that Life, and that is what spiritual death is, its alienation from the liberty and freedom of the Life of God, and so as long as we are in unbelief, we are but abiding in death, and its a token of the imprisonment due for our sins !

But now, for those whom Christ died and hath satisfied God's Law and Justice, they as an token of that fact, must be set free from sin and death and unbelief, for the Gift of God, through Jesus Christ, has set them free from the penalty of their sins, so unbelief must be reversed as an evidence of it.

That's why Jesus said of those who heard His Ministry and believed not, it meant they were in a condemned state owing to their sins not having been paid for, so in unbelief they must remain, and those who did receive Him, it was an token that they were not condemned by their sins, God's Justice for them having been satisfied, their unbelief is reversed and its given unto them to believe on His Name Phil 1:29.

So again, if any for whom Christ died for, doeth die in their sins and unbelief Jn 8:24, God has been Unjust and is guilty of what is called double jeopardy.

Those who teach that Christ died for anyone and that soul goes to hell in their sins and unbelief Jn 8:24, they are guilty of charging God with double jeopardy !

So bottom line lets change our minds to believing God, and be saved, thus the results through us are works of God through us and that is Love, unconditional, what Mercy. Mercy I have received Mercy shall I give? too simple right?
 
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace

People's life lived is what they really believe. They justify there sinning because of the flesh but when really you deny yourself and no longer live out your flesh but God's Spirit that you received.

When tempted is there not always a way out?

You got it live by the Spirit of God and deny the flesh as reckoning it dead to self at the death of Christ at the cross in order to see the new resurrected life daily
Romans 6:11
 
So bottom line lets change our minds to believing God, and be saved, thus the results through us are works of God through us and that is Love, unconditional, what Mercy. Mercy I have received Mercy shall I give? too simple right?


Can the man imprisoned free himself or does he need someone to unlock the door first? I understand what you are saying Homewardbound, but it doesn't answer the question either?
 
Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
 
Imputed Righteousness without Works !


Rom 4:6

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Now exactly what is this imputed Righteousness without works ? First lets begin by saying that its not a man's faith, meaning its not Righteousness Imputed on account of a man's act of believing. Many false teachers would tell us, because they lack understanding, that ones Righteousness is their Faith Vs 5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Note: [Those in the flesh have no faith !]

Now that is not what Vs 5 means, in fact Righteousness is Imputed without Works, Without Believing, without any act, deed performed by the sinner, but believing Faith is an act performed by us, when we do it. So what does this truly mean, that is to have Righteousness imputed without works ? Remember Works is defined by the greek word ergon:

I.
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
A.
that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking


II.
any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

III.
an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

So its Righteousness Imputed without any of this above that's been defined !

So what does it mean ? It means by an act of Sovereign Grace, all those Chosen in Christ before the foundation and those the same whom He died for, are given to their account a free gift of Righteousness. This Righteousness is Jesus Christ's own active obedience as a Man to all of God's Law in every detail, in Mind, Soul Strength, and Heart, yes even His disposition of Mind, external and internal, even to say without guile, charged or imputed to the account of every chosen sinner, and so it is by the Obedience of One the many shall be made Righteous Rom 5:19. The word Righteous dikaios:

I.righteous, observing divine laws
A.
in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of GodI.

of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined

ii.
innocent, faultless, guiltless

That's what it means !828

Imputed righteousness from God is imputed, put in, given to; period from God a free gift to all those that choose to beleive God when the Holy Spirit calls them, they make their free choice to beleive or not period. Then when beleive God imputes God's righteousness in those that he gives the Mercy of Son to. knowing everyone's motive, this is why God does the choosing knowing our motive behind the scene
So seek as the man in the temple sought, Mercy:
[h=3]Luke 18:9-14[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
 
Can the man imprisoned free himself or does he need someone to unlock the door first? I understand what you are saying Homewardbound, but it doesn't answer the question either?

If a man frees himself then he is free by his own means but how does he know that it were not by divine intervention? Ill tell you how, the means by which he was made free.

Phil lets just say you are a free man. What kind of key would you use to free yourself? Manmade? Natural? Divine? Could you free another? How long after are your understandings to follow?
 
Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.


Yes I agree with those verses aswell Homeward. and it still does not answer the question put forth, I understand the great and ultimate show of mercy in the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus..

However mercy is a result of an action. You are still not answering the question being asked homeward.

At the great judgement, how will God be shown to be just? on the basis of 'man's will' and in particular the belief of 'freewill'? what does the OP title mean in contrast to what the post said?

(all the lists of verses you post all I can say is amen..)
 
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, (Deu 30:19)

So we get a choice?
Yes we all get the choice as to choose believe or not, and those that do not receive by belief only saqid that they do, yet did not, because it was for their own selfishness, God knowing ones motive behind the scene, so have no other reason but to want to know God, God's Mercy and love to all
Thanks Bro
 
When Adam and Eve sinned all humanity was suppose to die and go to hell for their sin. Yet, Jesus Christ came and saved us all sinners from this condemnation.

Jesus Christ's Crucifixion reconciled us with God. BUT it takes ONE for reconciliation because reconciliation is about restoring a broken thing. Now comes the second part which is forgiveness. Forgiveness takes TWO. You must forgive to be forgiven. So when you forgive you will be forgiven your sin.

And if you have already been forgiven past tense, won't one respond with automatically forgive because they are forgiven already?
 
If a man frees himself then he is free by his own means but how does he know that it were not by divine intervention? Ill tell you how, the means by which he was made free.

Phil lets just say you are a free man. What kind of key would you use to free yourself? Manmade? Natural? Divine? Could you free another? How long after are your understandings to follow?


Hi Jag,

I don't believe my nature is 'free'. I believe I can make choices every second of the day freely but they are not free from who I am..my nature.


Phil lets just say you are a free man. What kind of key would you use to free yourself? Manmade? Natural? Divine? Could you free another? How long after are your understandings to follow?[/


Jag, the above is a great point and its here that the OP is referring to God's Justice being perverted. (not literally but by the teachings of man)

My own belief from scripture is that I was not free in the sense of making choices that are not natural to me or morally good choices pleasing to God. I would say we have free agency. So in order for me to be free from enslavement from the sin nature.. a divine act had to occur, for dead men don't bring themselves back to life.. so God does something to open my heart.. .

But if I believed that accepting the gospel offer was solely my 'free' choice, do I do God an injustice..

Excellent points Jag.. I may not agree.. but good points.
 
Hi Jag,

I don't believe my nature is 'free'. I believe I can make choices every second of the day freely but they are not free from who I am..my nature.





Jag, the above is a great point and its here that the OP is referring to God's Justice being perverted. (not literally but by the teachings of man)

My own belief from scripture is that I was not free in the sense of making choices that are not natural to me or morally good choices pleasing to God. I would say we have free agency. So in order for me to be free from enslavement from the sin nature.. a divine act had to occur, for dead men don't bring themselves back to life.. so God does something to open my heart.. .

But if I believed that accepting the gospel offer was solely my 'free' choice, do I do God an injustice..

Excellent points Jag.. I may not agree.. but good points.


Would you think that God would want you to make new keys and pass them out? You are standing there looking at this new place with a key in your hand. How would you know what to do? Give out hints on how to find the key? No help, it is up to everyman to pass himself?
 
Are you teaching us the thoughts of the Lord again? How do you know that the purpose of God for the pure in heart only to abide in Genesis 1? God rest on the 7th day. My understanding is FOR ME, he did nothing there after.

So are you saying you are rested from your works as God is rested from his since the foundation?
 
rested is keeping the Sabbath
go look it up.

you are in his rest
when you keep the Sabbath

when you break the Sabbath you have not entered into his rest

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day


that is god's rest day

He wont change that for any man's false doctrine...
He is god
 
King James sunday keeping commitee had a hard time with the Sabbath
so they actually changed the words to REST
when they should have said SHABBAT

they konw it

but the king would have cut their heads off if they told the truth.

look it up
 
rested is keeping the Sabbath
go look it up.

you are in his rest
when you keep the Sabbath

when you break the Sabbath you have not entered into his rest

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day


that is god's rest day

He wont change that for any man's false doctrine...
He is god

Honestly, what does this have to do with the OP?
 
King James sunday keeping commitee had a hard time with the Sabbath
so they actually changed the words to REST
when they should have said SHABBAT

they konw it

but the king would have cut their heads off if they told the truth.

look it up

Don't be a derailer. It is rude.

P.S. Nevermind. I see another person already derailed the thread.....
 
Would you think that God would want you to make new keys and pass them out? You are standing there looking at this new place with a key in your hand. How would you know what to do? Give out hints on how to find the key? No help, it is up to everyman to pass himself?


Another great point jag. But it does presume that those who have the 'key' (heard the gospel message) want to be released from the nature that they actually love. I don't make a new key, we proclaim the same 'key' and it works like this:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[SUP][c][/SUP] must be born again.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” (John 3)


If you are the prisoner locked up or enslaved.. you don't have the key to open the door yourself, someone else has.. as above..we just proclaim the message the Spirit renews the heart.. we cannot open hearts ourselves, I could not open my own heart..the Spirit did through the word.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” (Romans 1)

We don't know who those are who 'will' believe, but it is the Spirit who goes were he will opens the heart.


So the OP is referring to the fact that some believe that they can freely choose outwith their natural self to morally choose good. But the OP is putting forth a case that this is not the case (I would agree), for we do not have free will but rather free agency.. and something needs to change that first..to bring back a yearning for God so that we can respond in faith (even faith is a gift) and repent.

So how does that reflect on God being Just? that's the big question.
 
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;
and he
rested (SHABBATHED) which is defined as the seventh day rest exactly

on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.


Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day,

1 Chr 17:27 N for thou blessest, O LORD, and it shall be blessed for ever.




case closed
court dismissed.

2 Sam 7:29 Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O Lord GOD, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever.

Psa 21:6 For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.