How many People Think the Jews Could Be Wrong?

[Jocund]

Great points. I had to think about this for a bit.

Context is found in Deut 28:15-64 (Moses in pronouncing this prophecy over Israel just prior to dying and Joshua taking over leadership)

However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known

If I said "I scattered the Easter eggs across all of the rooms of the house, from one end of the house to the other", it could mean each of the rooms have eggs, but that isn't necessarily the case.

The KJV states "all people" instead of "all nations". The LXX has basically the word for "ethnicities" that is often translated to "Gentiles". The question in the context really comes down to what is meant by "scatter you among all people". Is it to indicate that the scattered will appear in any nation? Or is it to indicate the scattered into each nation? I would argue that if it truly were 'each' nation, we wouldn't see Deut 30's specification about "wherever God scattered you". The 'whither' line would be out of place and needless.

But, that said, if we assume it were to genuinely mean each nation/people, does that mean this prophecy could not be fulfilled until there was a member of Israel that joined the isolated tribes of the world that had no prior explosure to the rest of the world? That would mean that the curse wouldn't have been fulfilled yet (as even modernly we occasionally encounter newly discovered isolated tribes). What is meant by people/nations? How would we know at what point the curses would have been completed if it means 'each' peoples would include yet undiscovered tribes?

How is Joshua 21:43 a fulfillment of this if all of Israel is there listening to Moses speak this prophecy to them just prior to being led into the promised land by Joshua? When was Israel punished and scattered after Moses' prophecy but prior to Joshua 21:43?

After taking some time to look over this. I think you're right that Josh 21:43 doesn't line up with Deut 30. Josh 21 acknowledges that it is the possession of land promised to their fathers, where Deut 30 stands as a separate covenant / set of conditions. There could be overlap, but it's not 1:1 necessarily.

If we look at Daniel 9:11, it does appear to point toward that same Deut 28-30 set of curses.

Great counters so far, I'm just curious where you are going with this.

There are a lot of conditional statements in the Deut 28-30 passages. Something that might be worth exploring as a relevant side topic is what is meant by "all Israel" and having one's soul cut off from Israel (i.e. Ex 12:15). It would follow that only those of Israel that have not been cut off would be eligible for the blessings.

If we look at many of the conditional phrases in Deut, the concept of walking in the way of the Lord is required for returning to a good condition. Since Christ has been revealed to the world, surely this would mean walking in His way.

 

[Jocund]

What would be the meaning of the part, "showing himself to be God"?

Much love!

Here's my take on this:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" - 2 Thes 2:3-4 KJV

I think it would be tie in with the "falling away" of the previous verse. And instead of simply falling away by apathetically 'forgetting' about God, it is specifically talking about the something antipathic that is driving people in opposition to the truth, Something that distracts and obstructs from the truth, rather than the truth simply being out of sight. in misleading powers, signs, and lying wonders. A false earthly temple itself could even be seen as a misleading sign or lying wonder that distracts from the fact that the Temple of God is within, not without.

2 Thes 2's Satan sitting in the temple of God might be the same thing as 2 Cor 6's idol sitting in the temple of God.

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." - 2 Cor 6:14-17 KJV

Much love!

 

[Jocund]

There is no spiritual Israel...that is never found in the word. I can tune into the news or my Jerusalem channels and wow there they are. In israel right before my eyes...

'Spiritual' Israel is just an easier way to reference the collective souls that are not cut off from Israel (cf. Ex 12:15).

Any time "all Israel" is referenced, this would refer to 'Spiritual' Israel. But many other lines reference "of Israel" which is inclusive of the souls cut off from Israel. Not all of Israel will be saved, but all Israel shall be saved. If you understand the entire "cut off" bit, Rom 9 and Rom 11 make sense together, and it is then a guarantee that some of Israel are permanently cut off.

"Israel" never referred to a country in the Bible. It was always a people. The use of "Israel" as the name of a country is new and not Biblical. "Land of Israel" was always a reference to a land of a people, not that the land was called Israel. Israel was usually a house and people that were a part of many nations.

 

[Jocund]

View attachment 245414


Here it is in the New Century Version:

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NCV)
4 He will be against and put himself above anything called God or anything that people worship. And that Man of Evil will even go into God’s Temple and sit there and say that he is God.

Do you Know how Many seats Are in that TEMPLE ? ? ?

Only One, the Mercy Seat.

View attachment 245413

I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with the NCV translation, but interpreting 2 Thes 2:4 to necessarily be talking about a literal stone and mortar earthly temple is at least worthy of some scrutiny and discussion.

There are basically 3 theories we can run with:

1) temple refers to a physical earthly temple
2) temple refers to a physical heavenly temple
3) temple refers to a spiritual temple composed of believers in Christ

(or 4, some combination of 2 and 3).

If we look at the rest of 2 Thes 2, we see warnings about powers, signs, and lying wonders. It is at least worthy of consideration that a new earthly temple could be a lying wonder or misleading sign.

 

[markss]

Here's my take on this:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" - 2 Thes 2:3-4 KJV

I think it would be tie in with the "falling away" of the previous verse. And instead of simply falling away by apathetically 'forgetting' about God, it is specifically talking about the something antipathic that is driving people in opposition to the truth, Something that distracts and obstructs from the truth, rather than the truth simply being out of sight. in misleading powers, signs, and lying wonders. A false earthly temple itself could even be seen as a misleading sign or lying wonder that distracts from the fact that the Temple of God is within, not without.

2 Thes 2's Satan sitting in the temple of God might be the same thing as 2 Cor 6's idol sitting in the temple of God.

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." - 2 Cor 6:14-17 KJV

Much love!

I don't understand how that will make a demonstration that the man of sin is God. Isn't that what he's doing sitting in the temple? Showing that he is God? It's like, he's making a presentation of himself as Deity, God Himself.

Do you know what I'm asking? How is that "proof"?

Much love!

 

[VCO]

I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with the NCV translation, but interpreting 2 Thes 2:4 to necessarily be talking about a literal stone and mortar earthly temple is at least worthy of some scrutiny and discussion.

There are basically 3 theories we can run with:

1) temple refers to a physical earthly temple
2) temple refers to a physical heavenly temple
3) temple refers to a spiritual temple composed of believers in Christ

(or 4, some combination of 2 and 3).

If we look at the rest of 2 Thes 2, we see warnings about powers, signs, and lying wonders. It is at least worthy of consideration that a new earthly temple could be a lying wonder or misleading sign.

You know I was talking about the Physical Earthly Temple.

There has never been more that ONE seat in the Jewish TEMPLE.

 

[VCO]

I don't understand how that will make a demonstration that the man of sin is God. Isn't that what he's doing sitting in the temple? Showing that he is God? It's like, he's making a presentation of himself as Deity, God Himself.

Do you know what I'm asking? How is that "proof"?

Much love!

I think the Man of Sin, Antichrist; showed he deserved to be the first one in Hell, because of his actions.

Revelation 19:20 (HCSB)
20 But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

 

[Jocund]

I don't understand how that will make a demonstration that the man of sin is God. Isn't that what he's doing sitting in the temple? Showing that he is God? It's like, he's making a presentation of himself as Deity, God Himself.

Do you know what I'm asking? How is that "proof"?

Much love!

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. I think you understand the interpretation, you're just asking for "proof" that it's necessarily talking about a spiritual temple rather than a physical earthly temple?

I think the man of sin is just presenting himself falsely as the highest power, in a show of display in the temple, like putting an idol on display as though it were the centrepiece of a temple. It's not that he would actually be God, only that he is showing to himself (vainly) that he is the highest power.

If a physical place, it would just be a show of influence, like an unworthy person sitting in a place of high power. If a spiritual temple ("you are the temple"), it would talking about a pollution of someone's heart and mind leading to a falling away.

Even if this verse were necessarily talking about a spiritual temple, it wouldn't necessarily rule out the possibility of an earthly structure being erected, it's just that the earthly structure wouldn't actually be the real temple of God.

Lots of ways to look at it. I just don't see an earthly temple as something that is necessitated by scripture. Everyone might see this a bit differently, and in those differences comes the enjoyment of communal Bible study. I enjoy being proven wrong because then that means I'll be wrong about one less thing afterward. And if by the end of the day I've tested something and see that it proves true, that's something to hold fast onto.

Much love!

 

[Jocund]

View attachment 245452

You know I was talking about the Physical Earthly Temple.

There has never been more that ONE seat in the Jewish TEMPLE.

View attachment 245450

I suppose my curiosity is focused more on the origin of the concepts. Where does the idea of a single solitary seat come from? Where do any of the 3rd earthly temple concepts come from?

 

[cv5]

I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with the NCV translation, but interpreting 2 Thes 2:4 to necessarily be talking about a literal stone and mortar earthly temple is at least worthy of some scrutiny and discussion.

There are basically 3 theories we can run with:

1) temple refers to a physical earthly temple
2) temple refers to a physical heavenly temple
3) temple refers to a spiritual temple composed of believers in Christ

(or 4, some combination of 2 and 3).

If we look at the rest of 2 Thes 2, we see warnings about powers, signs, and lying wonders. It is at least worthy of consideration that a new earthly temple could be a lying wonder or misleading sign.

Three theories.....one reality.

You sure are full of questions. And very few answers.

 

[Yahshua]

There are a lot of conditional statements in the Deut 28-30 passages. Something that might be worth exploring as a relevant side topic is what is meant by "all Israel" and having one's soul cut off from Israel (i.e. Ex 12:15). It would follow that only those of Israel that have not been cut off would be eligible for the blessings.

Definitely worth exploring. Are they eligible to be regathered? Who determines their eligibility?

If we look at many of the conditional phrases in Deut, the concept of walking in the way of the Lord is required for returning to a good condition. Since Christ has been revealed to the world, surely this would mean walking in His way.

100% Agree.

Great counters so far, I'm just curious where you are going with this.

Just focusing on the point of contention which is, whether there are promises specific to ethnic Israel (i.e natural branches). I offered for your consideration the promise of gathering them back to their land and restoring everything they lost.

If I said "I scattered the Easter eggs across all of the rooms of the house, from one end of the house to the other", it could mean each of the rooms have eggs, but that isn't necessarily the case.

The KJV states "all people" instead of "all nations". The LXX has basically the word for "ethnicities" that is often translated to "Gentiles". The question in the context really comes down to what is meant by "scatter you among all people". Is it to indicate that the scattered will appear in any nation? Or is it to indicate the scattered into each nation? I would argue that if it truly were 'each' nation, we wouldn't see Deut 30's specification about "wherever God scattered you". The 'whither' line would be out of place and needless.

But, that said, if we assume it were to genuinely mean each nation/people, does that mean this prophecy could not be fulfilled until there was a member of Israel that joined the isolated tribes of the world that had no prior explosure to the rest of the world? That would mean that the curse wouldn't have been fulfilled yet (as even modernly we occasionally encounter newly discovered isolated tribes). What is meant by people/nations? How would we know at what point the curses would have been completed if it means 'each' peoples would include yet undiscovered tribes?

These are very good questions and replies...but I think we should first settle the issue at hand which is (to borrow your analogy) whether or not they are actual eggs to scatter across your house - regardless of where they are scattered or whether you're finished. Accordingly, we would need proof that verifies they are authentically eggs that you (a) claimed ownership of, and then (b) intended to scatter.

a) Of course, ethnic Israel was claimed by the living God (Exodus)
b) Moses pronounced the blessings & curses over ethnic Israel (Deut)

The Living God (through Moses) says if/when they disobey that a list of curses will fall on ethnic Israel which include (or better said "which concludes with") their scattering from their land where they are together as one nation/ethos/ethnic group to among all "ethnicities" from one end of the earth to the other.

[It's not quite valued today, but in the past, a unified nation meant power while a scattering of that nation's people meant certain destruction of that nation's power.]

Ethnic Israel has been "evicted" a couple of times that we know of:

1. Northern Kingdom exiled to Assyria
2. Southern Kingdom exiled to Babylon (they later returned)
3. 70AD destruction of Jerusalem leading to The Diaspora

If we set aside for a moment questions about whether ethnicity or nation is meant, note that if we focus on geography there is only one of these instances that satisfies the notion of a "worldwide" scattering:

1. Exiled to a territory in the Middle East
2. Exiled to a territory in the Middle East
3. Dispersed Worldwide

Regarding Daniel, note what was prophesied to him by "the man in linen" (I believe He to be Messiah since those are a High Priest's garments) in Daniel 12:

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


Note the order of events:

1. A time of trouble for the "children" [descendants] of Daniel's people [Jews] such as never was since there was "a nation".

2. Daniel's people [Jews} shall be delivered

3. The Resurrection of just and unjust

4. The wise will shine

And when someone asked how long this prophecy would take, the man in linen said in Daniel 12:7...

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


So during exile in Babylon, there was prophesied ANOTHER punishment to fall upon ethnic Israel that would be such as was never experienced by a nation that would result in their scattering...and this punishment would happen AFTER Daniel but BEFORE the resurrection.

Now with the benefit of hindsight, we know that The Diaspora occurred AFTER Daniel - following the decimation of the Temple and Jerusalem - and BEFORE the resurrection (clearly), and it was worldwide.


This brings us to Messiah's own words...

Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 are parallel chapters recording the same series of punishments prophesied upon "the children of Daniel's people". Please read them on your own as I'm trying to save space. Luke 21:22-24 reads...

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Key points:
1. The punishments are a fulfillment of what was "written" (Daniel...Deut...?)

2. It is wrath upon "this" people (Daniel's people again; an ethnic group)

3. They will be led into all nations & Jerusalem overrun until Gentiles' time is finished (a distinction is made between these ethnic groups)

4. (The Messiah even mentions "remember Daniel" during this prophecy.)

5. The nations/ethnos will go through turmoil, signs will occur, and then the "Son of Man" will appear

6. He will gather His elect "from the four winds"

So during a time when Daniel's "scattering" prophecy hadn't happened yet, there was a prophesied punishment to fall upon ethnic Jews that would be such a great tribulation upon them that it would result in them being led into all nations and their land trampled on by Gentiles...and this punishment would happen AFTER Messiah left but BEFORE He returned.

Moses...Daniel...Messiah...The scattering of ethnic Israel and their land being taken from them is one of the most repeated prophecies in scripture, with it also including ethnic Israel's gathering back together as one nation in their land.

 

[VCO]

I don't understand how that will make a demonstration that the man of sin is God. Isn't that what he's doing sitting in the temple? Showing that he is God? It's like, he's making a presentation of himself as Deity, God Himself.

Do you know what I'm asking? How is that "proof"?

Much love!

He is not GOD, he is Pretending to be God, Complete with MIRACLES TO PROVE IT.

Satan loves to imitate GOD, look at Pharoah's Magicians they turned their Staffs to snakes too. That was by the Power of Satan. He laid low for a long time, especially his power to do miracles. There was a Hindu Guru, that send flyers out in the early 90s in Northern California, yes I got one too when I lived in Northern California, too. He said "2000 years ago, Christ was a person, and you have to forget about Jesus Christ, and Follow Me. Because I now have the Power of Christ, and I" will go on International TV, to do miracles to Prove I am now the CHRIST." He Called himself Lord Maitreya, the one who was Promoting Lord Maitreya Benjamin Creme (1922–2016), a follower of Alice Bailey and founder of Share International, but He died in 2016. Lord Maitreya, probably died also, but no one know where he went.

No thanks to the Pentecostal and Charismatic Movement, we now have a generation that thinks, everything Miraculous has to be of GOD. They know longer even check where these miracles are coming from, GOD or the Devil himself. So Satan has set up most if the Charismatics and Pentecostals TO FALL FOR SATAN's Miracles. There is the Great Falling Away that was Prophesied. It will happen, because people have forgotten that GOD is not only person that can do miracles.

 

[Lanolin]

Didnt Shirley Maclaine claim she was God at one point?

 

[markss]

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. I think you understand the interpretation, you're just asking for "proof" that it's necessarily talking about a spiritual temple rather than a physical earthly temple?

No, what I'm saying is this. The man of sin sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God.

He sits in the temple of God giving evidence that he himself actually is God. What is the evidence, or proof, that he is God as he "sits in the spiritual temple"? It sounds like you are describing something else, apostasy, like that.

Much love!

 

[VCO]

Didnt Shirley Maclaine claim she was God at one point?

It wouldn't surprise me. You cannot use one verse to contradict another. One or both are a mistranslation.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 (HCSB)
33 since God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.
35 And if they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church meeting.

1 Timothy 2:9-12 (HCSB)
9 Also, the women are to dress themselves in modest clothing, with decency and good sense, not with elaborate hairstyles, gold, pearls, or expensive apparel,
10 but with good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God.
11 A woman should learn in silence with full submission.
12 I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

I will not mention the Denomination, but one time while we were living in California, when we had just moved to California, we tried an Church that we thought we were familiar which. To my surprise a woman, came to the Pulpit to preach the Sermon. My wife and I got up and WALKED OUT.

 

[VCO]

I suppose my curiosity is focused more on the origin of the concepts. Where does the idea of a single solitary seat come from? Where do any of the 3rd earthly temple concepts come from?

You know you have a weird twist in your Theology.

I have learned not to question GOD's Will, which is part of my spiritual growth.

You kind of remind me of Red Skelton's "Mean Little Kid".

You seem to always ask our Heavenly Father, "Why do you want me to do that? Why do you want it your way? Why do you have a different plan for Israel?

Don't be surprised if you HEAR a Booming Voice in your heart yell: "BECAUSE I SAID SO!"

 

[Jocund]

View attachment 245498

You know you have a weird twist in your Theology.

I have learned not to question GOD's Will, which is part of my spiritual growth.

You kind of remind me of Red Skelton's "Mean Little Kid".

You seem to always ask our Heavenly Father, "Why do you want me to do that? Why do you want it your way? Why do you have a different plan for Israel?

Don't be surprised if you HEAR a Booming Voice in your heart yell: "BECAUSE I SAID SO!"

You pretend like I'm questioning scripture itself when I'm not. I am questioning your dubious interpretations that you purport scripture to necessarily mean.

Your beliefs appear to be largely informed by Talmudism rather than by Christian scripture alone. You take the word of antiChrists and ironically refuse to reflect on how and why that could possibly lead you to mistruths.

Are you a Dispensationalist?

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

Didnt Shirley Maclaine claim she was God at one point?

It's funny that you brought that up.
I just saw the clip of her stupid movie or whatever it was where some stupid guru on a beach. She kept saying it until I said, hear comes the giant tidal wave. Let's see you stop that....then turned off the YouTube video. That was the most annoying thing I saw all week and I have been annoyed.
Thought I was listening to a Furtick concert.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

 

[Jocund]

I don't know this person. But...

Consider the fact that God spoke through Moses's lips when He said to Pharaoh "Let my people go". And again with the Mosaic ten commandments in Exodus 19&20 God spoke through Moses's lips stating, "I am the Lord your God"

Something coming out of someone's lips in a self referential way isn't necessarily a person making claim about the mortal shell that it was heard from. Moses wasn't actually calling himself God even though the people would have heard it through his lips. It could be argued that this person in the video also wasn't actually referring to himself as God when the words "I am God" were heard.

I don't know the full context of this person and maybe this person is blaspheming, but the real takeaway is that hearing the words "I am God" from mortal lips doesn't necessarily mean those words are referencing the mortal form it came from.