How should we account for Evil in the Garden?

[Blade]

Without a doubt, there was evil that crept into the a garden of Eden. It took the form of a talking snake. If God+ did not put the evil in the garden, where did it come from and what does your answer imply about the omnipotence and omnipotence of God+?

So much of what we believe at the start of all this.. is not written. As "crept" The word says "more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made". Not like it was ninja like and got in For me the fall had already happened .. so the tree of good and evil was there. Again there is no scripture for saying "God put Satan in the Garden". One can even say the word of GOD does not say that Snake was Satan. Just saying that is lol "technically correct". This is going by the org text. Now going by the NT then yes, but no where does it hint that God put Satan there. That garden was not blocked off .. there is so much here we do not know about.

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

God never temps us. Never puts us in situation where we can be tempted. (But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.) We face tests and trials that help us to grow to move forward. In that temptation .. this song.. God is faithful... just before I wanted to say " God will not allow a situation or temptation to exceed your capacity to endure it, and He will faithfully provide a "way of escape" so you can bear it"

Its what Christ did.. did He not give Adam and Eve "Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”. So man gets tempted to become god like.. to know good and evil yet handed over to Satan was was given to us. Satan told Christ.. "this was given/handed to me to do with what I want". So Christ died rose amen! Was was changed?

 

[Cameron143]

God's plan in creation was to fill the earth with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord. To that end, God created sentient beings in His image, and created all things to foster revelation of Himself. This, incidentally, is why all men are accountable before Him because both the created world and the created conscience God placed in man reveal the existence of God.

Things would have gone swimmingly had sin not entered in. As children were born they would learn of the glory of the knowledge of the Lord, the population would grow because death wouldn't have been present, and, at some point, the knowledge of the glory of the Lord would fill the earth.

When sin entered in, the plan remained the same though the means was altered. Now God had to redeem sinful man to Himself and alter his fallen nature so that the knowledge of the glory of the Lord would fill the earth.

God was always prepared for this as Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. It was always God's plan to send Christ. The question is why? And the answer is that if God's purpose is to reveal Himself so that the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will fill the earth, sending Christ, who is the express image of God, would accomplish this end better than any other method. Who better to reveal the love of God than Jesus? Who better to reveal the way, the truth, the life? Who better to reveal anything concerning God the Father?

 

[Magenta]

The Plan

 

[GWH]

Perhaps I'm not being clear. I am interested in the fact that 99%+ of every human that ever existed never heard of Christ or the God of the Jews. Why would a loving God condemn 117 Billion humans to experience eternal torture in hell? Not out of sinfulness, because without any framework for what is sinful how can any blame be placed? Perhaps there is a path for them as noted in 1 Timothy 4- 10 "In fact this is why we work hard and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers."

Even the Christian community that has 45,000 variations do not agree about what is sinful. Most would agree that mankind is inherently sinful by nature. We are all happy with "generic sin" just not our personal sin. How could anyone expect that the utter majority of all humanity past, present and future would have any concept of one God demanding their eternal torture or submission and call that a loving God? What is there to recommend the world to Christianity. In Christ's name millions have been murdered, burned at the stake, torched, subjugated, exterminated and impoverished. What in the past 2,000 years would invite a truth seeker to join forces and commit their lives and fortunes to a system dedicated to torcher and subjugation for the past 1,726 yrs? If the morality of Christians are the high ground, what is lowest ground? Perhaps that is because morality is what you do and we have left that behind in pursuit of "believing right." God has no interest in our deeds thus our morality.

Jesus said that true Christians are a bright light that all can see, and in so doing we attract others to our Savior. Paul tells us that no matter what Christianity you claim without real love, you are just noise. Jesus said you must take up your cross daily and follow Him. Jesus said you will be judged by what you do and who you become (Matt25). Is that something that 21st Christianity preaches, teaches or even believes? Or do we preach a 60 second prayer agreement guarantees you heaven and a life you can live any way you darned well please. Being useless to God is now the focus of our anti-works theologies. Bizarrely, the more useless we are to God the more Holy we feel being free of works. We have come to believe that we can happily live without any conscience because our God has no interest in what we do just so long as we claim to believe "right." This same detachment of "faith in or dogmas" from real life is what has demeaned Jesus in the eyes of the world. As a result Christianity in North America is rapidly diminishing. Fortunately it is flourishing in the Global South and Africa where being Christian is overcoming nominal Christianity and where real sacrifice is an everyday reality.

IOW, your question is "What is GRFS for those who never have the opportunity to hear the NT Gospel?"

Short answer: Souls are judged justly based on the opportunities they were given per the Parable of the Talents.

Longer answer: Because God loves the world (John 3:16) and wants everyone to be saved (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), He must provide an opportunity. God’s just judgment is illustrated by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents (Matt. 25:14-29), which indicates that God will judge souls on the basis of the truth (Word = Christ per John 1:1f.) they have received.

There are two main ways God/Christ is encountered:

1. General revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work and moral conscience. Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8). He also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture via common sense/logic, beginning with the Golden Rule (Matt. 7:12).

2. Special revelation (1Pet. 1:8-12), which refers mainly to divinely inspired Scripture regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1Cor. 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (John 14:6, Acts 24:14, Phil. 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.

 

[Magenta]

All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Matthew 11 v 27

 

[GWH]

All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Matthew 11 v 27

Yes, and God the Father and Son choose to reveal the Truth to everyone (1Tim. 2:3-4, John 12:32).

 

[biblestudent78]

IOW, your question is "What is GRFS for those who never have the opportunity to hear the NT Gospel?"

Short answer: Souls are judged justly based on the opportunities they were given per the Parable of the Talents.

Longer answer: Because God loves the world (John 3:16) and wants everyone to be saved (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), He must provide an opportunity. God’s just judgment is illustrated by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents (Matt. 25:14-29), which indicates that God will judge souls on the basis of the truth (Word = Christ per John 1:1f.) they have received.

There are two main ways God/Christ is encountered:

1. General revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work and moral conscience. Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8). He also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture via common sense/logic, beginning with the Golden Rule (Matt. 7:12).

2. Special revelation (1Pet. 1:8-12), which refers mainly to divinely inspired Scripture regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1Cor. 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (John 14:6, Acts 24:14, Phil. 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.

Thoughtful. Optimistic.

 

[Magenta]

Yes, and God the Father and Son choose to reveal the Truth to everyone (1Tim. 2:3-4, John 12:32).

Neither of those verses claim what your wishful thinking indicates.

John 18 v 37b John 8 v 47 Matthew 13 v 11b For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice. Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Plus 2 Timothy 1 v 9, He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began.

 

[biblestudent78]

Neither of those verses claim what your wishful thinking indicates.

John 18 v 37b John 8 v 47 Matthew 13 v 11b For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice. Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Plus 2 Timothy 1 v 9, He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Jesus came into the world to testify about the truth of the God. I think you are making my point. One must "belong to the truth" they can then listen to the God of the Bible speak." If you "belong to the God of the Bible, God talks to you and you hear His words. If God does not talk to you, it is because you do not "belong" to the God of the bible. So, if the God of the Bible does not talk to you, He will take everything you have away from you. Please tell me about what God has spoken to you recently. I'm not particularly interested in bible quotes because even satan can read the bible. I am more interested in what God has spoken to you personally about lately. I'm sure the world would like to know as well.

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 12 v 30 (Mark 9 v 40 & Luke 11 v 23), John 8 v 47 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.

 

[biblestudent78]

You quote John 18: but what does that have to do with your point? Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world.
36 Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish authorities. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.” 37 Then Pilate said, “So you are a king!” Jesus replied, “You say that I am a king. For this reason I was born, and for this reason I came into the world – to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” 38 Pilate asked, “What is truth?”

Obviously, Pilot did not get what world Jesus was talking about or what his unique truth was was testifying about. Jesus was not the truth, but one sent to testify to the truth. Apparently many listened to His voice, but none tried to save Him. None thought he was himself the Truth. None believed in His resurrection before it happened. So, exactly who were there with Jesus who "belongs to the truth." Thus who believed what to Jesus said." Today there are at least 45,000 different Christian denominations all claiming to have listened to Jesus but come up with conflicting theologies. Which is hearing His voice?

In your John 8 citation Jesus specifically says He knows God. He come from God and obeys God's teachings. The only teachings from God at that point was compliance with the Jewish law.
Then they said to Jesus, “We were not born as a result of immorality! We have only one Father, God himself.” 42Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me. 43Why don’t you understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot accept my teaching. 44You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I am telling you the truth, you do not believe me. 46Who among you can prove me guilty of any sin? If I am telling you the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47The one who belongs to God listens and responds to God’s words. You don’t listen and respond, because you don’t belong to God.”

48 The Judeans replied, “Aren’t we correct in saying that you are a Samaritan and are possessed by a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I am not possessed by a demon, but I honor my Father – and yet you dishonor me. 50 I am not trying to get praise for myself. There is one who demands it, and he also judges. 51 I tell you the solemn truth, if anyone obeys my teaching, he will never see death.”

52 Then the Judeans responded, “Now we know you’re possessed by a demon! Both Abraham and the prophets died, and yet you say, ‘If anyone obeys my teaching, he will never experience death.’ 53 You aren’t greater than our father Abraham who died, are you? And the prophets died too! Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory is worthless. The one who glorifies me is my Father, about whom you people say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 Yet you do not know him, but I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know him, and I obey his teaching. 56 Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.”

 

[biblestudent78]

As a general rule when folks get sticky about how a single verse with zero context validates a dogma, I get suspicious. And now for context on Matthew 13. This is about Jesus disciples trying to understand Jesus parable of the Sower of seed. They did not understand the parable. Jesus quoted Isaiah 6:9-10 to illustrate that some things are always hidden. However, at some point in the Christian life the true meaning of this and other parables will become obvious. There is an extreme warning from Jesus that is almost never spoken about in our featherweight Christian cosplay.
1. If you hear the words about the kingdom and don't understand it, satan comes and snatches it away.
2. Some will hear the word and immediately receive it in their hearts with joy but when the trouble of life come he falls away
3. Some will hear the word in their hearts, but worldly cares and temptations choke out the word so it produces nothing
4. Some will hear the word and produce 30, 60 or 100 times what was sown into their hearts.
Lesson - if you hear the word you will produce. Your life will matter. Your behavior will matter. You heart matters.

Matthew 12
22 Then they brought to him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute. Jesus healed him so that he could speak and see. 23All the crowds were amazed and said, “Could this one be the Son of David?” 24 But when the Pharisees heard this they said, “He does not cast out demons except by the power of Beelzebul, the ruler of demons!” 25 Now when Jesus realized what they were thinking, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed, and no town or house divided against itself will stand. 26So if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you. 29 How else can someone enter a strong man’s house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can thoroughly plunder the house. 30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Mark 9:
33Then they came to Capernaum. After Jesus was inside the house he asked them, “What were you discussing on the way?” 34But they were silent, for on the way they had argued with one another about who was the greatest. 35After he sat down, he called the twelve and said to them, “If anyone wants to be first, he must be last of all and servant of all.” 36He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37“Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me.”

38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, because no one who does a miracle in my name will be able soon afterward to say anything bad about me. 40 For whoever is not against us is for us. 41 For I tell you the truth, whoever gives you a cup of water because you bear Christ’s name will never lose his reward.

Luke 11 same story.

I did not read anywhere that God talks to special people and that they recognize His voice. When the voice of God talks does He add or detract anything already in the Word of God? Is the written Word of God incomplete requiring a special verbal interaction with each believer?

 

[Magenta]

John 10 verses 27-28 My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

 

[Magenta]

“Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.” The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. John 8 v 47; Matthew 13 v 11; 2 Corinthians ch 4 v 4; Romans 8 v 9b

 

[PaulThomson]

If sin was the enemy and God knew what would happen if He put sin in the garden, either He did not know what would happen, or He planned for it to happen. There is no biblical basis in Genesis that mankind was created with a "free will" and that God did not know exactly what would happen when He put Satan in the garden.

You are not considering a third option. That God knew what could happen and is wise enough to deal with whatever man would choose to do.

 

[PaulThomson]

Tablet,
If God knew in advance (Omnipotent) what would happen to in the two creation stories....that the evil God+ put in the garden would cause mankind to sin, how are Adam and Eve doing anything more than carrying out (fulfilling) the will of God+?

You are assuming that God put evil in the garden. Scripture does not say that He did. You seem to think that if someone is omnipotent, they should always force their will onto others. Maybe you are imagining a false God who just is a bigger form of you.

 

[PaulThomson]

How could anyone expect that the utter majority of all humanity past, present and future would have any concept of one God demanding their eternal torture or submission and call that a loving God?

He doesn’t demand eternal torture or submission. You are railing against a God you have invented for yourself, or someone has invented HIm for you.

 

[PaulThomson]

I did not read anywhere that God talks to special people and that they recognize His voice. When the voice of God talks does He add or detract anything already in the Word of God? Is the written Word of God incomplete requiring a special verbal interaction with each believer?

Yes. The written word of God is incomplete and not sufficient to give us life. Jesus said “You search the scriptures because you think in by them you have aeonous life. But they speak of Me, and you will nor come to Me."

We need a relationship and conversation with the risen Saviour that the scriptures point us to. Yes, He does have a special; verbal interaction with each of His disciples.

 

[GWH]

Thoughtful. Optimistic.

Well, this insight affirms God's sovereignty, omnilove and justness by connecting some dots in GW.

 

[GWH]

Jesus came into the world to testify about the truth of the God. I think you are making my point. One must "belong to the truth" they can then listen to the God of the Bible speak." If you "belong to the God of the Bible, God talks to you and you hear His words. If God does not talk to you, it is because you do not "belong" to the God of the bible. So, if the God of the Bible does not talk to you, He will take everything you have away from you. Please tell me about what God has spoken to you recently. I'm not particularly interested in bible quotes because even satan can read the bible. I am more interested in what God has spoken to you personally about lately. I'm sure the world would like to know as well.

Well, even though you do not believe those verses, you should make an artistic panel that quotes them in order to balance those you prefer. Everything I share on CC is what God has spoken to me during my lifetime. What He has taught me via interaction with you is humility, which is why I keep apologizing for offending you.