How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Runningman]

He is talking to Christians about what will happen between that time and His return at a future time.

I agree. Matthew 24 and Mark 13 speak of a prophecied future return of Christ that has yet to be fulfilled up until this present day. Therefore, it certainly includes the church as people who are His elect. The gathering of the elect from the earth to the heavens, after the tribulation, is the rapture.

That's the strength of the post-tribulation rapture, it's plainly stated and doesn't require interpretation to understand. Whereas the pre-tribulation rapture often defers to Daniel's 70th week, causing much speculation and debate about what it means.

Furthermore, no where does it say a pre-tribulation gathering of the elect occurs in the Bible. If that existed, it would create a myriad of contradictions and theological errors that are difficult for pre-tribbers to reconcile without altering their hermeneutics of the Bible to try to shoehorn in the pre-trib.

As a result, the pre-tribs greatest weaknesses are: isn't plainly stated in scripture, isn't intuitive from reading the Bible, and isn't present in the earliest church teachings.

Pre-trib doesn't pass the smell test. 💩

 

[lamad]

When anyone asked the question WHEN in responding to the rapture, our first thought should be:

WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES SAY?

Well, what DO they say?

Who in the bible received the REVELATION of the rapture? It was Paul. Up until then, the fact that those alive and In Christ would be caught up and changed was a MYSTERY. Paul received His revelation YEARS (perhaps ten years) after Christ gave His end times discourse.

Question: if Jesus was thinking of the rapture when He mentioned the gathering, how then could Paul have written that it was a mystery when He received it?

What is Paul's order of events in 1 Thes. 4 & 5? It is the RAPTURE, then the DAY and then WRATH. However, we know the DAY is the day of WRATH. From Paul then, we know that the rapture PRECEDES the start of the Day of the Lord.

Where does John start the Day of the Lord in Revelation? AT the 6th seal, in Revelation chapter 6.

Where in Revelation would Jesus be when He stated "after the tribulation of those days?" "The tribulation" would certainly include the days of great tribulation, and those days of GT will be started and caused by the Beast and False Prophet forcing people to take their mark or lose their head. Where in Revelation will that begin? Certainly AFTER God warns people not to take the mark - in chapter 14. We see the beheaded (from the days of GT caused by the Beast) beginning to show up in heaven in Rev. 15. We see the 70th week END at the 7th vial. Therefore, when Jesus stated "after the tribulation of those days" He would be speaking of after the 7th vial in Revelation.

Since Paul's rapture must come before wrath, or before the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal, Revelation chapter 6, how in the world can the gathering in Matthew 24 sometime late in chapter 16, be the same gathering as a gathering sometime before the 6th seal start of Wrath?

Answer? It cannot be the same gathering.

As further proof, John SAW the raptured chuch in heaven shortly AFTER the 6th seal start of the Day of His Wrath.

Post-tribbers desparately need for John to have seen the great crowd of the raptured church somewhere in chapter 19 of Revelation to prove their theory. It is not there. It proves pretrib because John saw the raptured church before he started the 70th week.

 

[DavidTree]

Instead of accusing the Brethren, which is what Satan does, why not prove with scripture where I am wrong?

Case in point: FIND references in Matthew 24 that proves Jesus was talking to Gentiles.

Perhaps you have overlooked this:
Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

It was a mystery until Paul revealed it: God is waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in.

Luke 21:24
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Do you see it? We are in the TIME of the Gentiles.

Did you not know that YOU will be judged by PAUL's GOSPEL?

Romans 2:16
in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Did you not know that Paul was sent to the GENTILES?

Galatians 2:9
and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

Satanism - separate the Jew from the Gentile in Christ. This is error and MYTH. Did you not understand the difference of the two realms? There is a spiritual realm and there is a physical realm. Our fleshly bodies are physical. If Jew is born again, his or her body is still a Jewish body. If a Gentile is born again, his or her body is still a Gentile body.

Why is it, anyone that disagrees with YOU is a heathen in your sight?

The "Times of the Gentiles" is NOT the Body of Christ.

The ToG is the Gentile Rule on earth until the LORD Returns = His Second Coming.

Reject the Vatican lie of a 'Gentile Church'.

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24which things are symbolic. For these are [g]the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

hen all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13And after they had [c]become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the [d]Lord who does all these things.’

 

[DavidTree]

When anyone asked the question WHEN in responding to the rapture, our first thought should be:

WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES SAY?

Well, what DO they say?

Who in the bible received the REVELATION of the rapture? It was Paul. Up until then, the fact that those alive and In Christ would be caught up and changed was a MYSTERY. Paul received His revelation YEARS (perhaps ten years) after Christ gave His end times discourse.

Question: if Jesus was thinking of the rapture when He mentioned the gathering, how then could Paul have written that it was a mystery when He received it?

What is Paul's order of events in 1 Thes. 4 & 5? It is the RAPTURE, then the DAY and then WRATH. However, we know the DAY is the day of WRATH. From Paul then, we know that the rapture PRECEDES the start of the Day of the Lord.

Where does John start the Day of the Lord in Revelation? AT the 6th seal, in Revelation chapter 6.

Where in Revelation would Jesus be when He stated "after the tribulation of those days?" "The tribulation" would certainly include the days of great tribulation, and those days of GT will be started and caused by the Beast and False Prophet forcing people to take their mark or lose their head. Where in Revelation will that begin? Certainly AFTER God warns people not to take the mark - in chapter 14. We see the beheaded (from the days of GT caused by the Beast) beginning to show up in heaven in Rev. 15. We see the 70th week END at the 7th vial. Therefore, when Jesus stated "after the tribulation of those days" He would be speaking of after the 7th vial in Revelation.

Since Paul's rapture must come before wrath, or before the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal, Revelation chapter 6, how in the world can the gathering in Matthew 24 sometime late in chapter 16, be the same gathering as a gathering sometime before the 6th seal start of Wrath?

Answer? It cannot be the same gathering.

As further proof, John SAW the raptured chuch in heaven shortly AFTER the 6th seal start of the Day of His Wrath.

Post-tribbers desparately need for John to have seen the great crowd of the raptured church somewhere in chapter 19 of Revelation to prove their theory. It is not there. It proves pretrib because John saw the raptured church before he started the 70th week.

See Brother - you need assistance from the Holy Spirit.

The LORD knew EXACTLY, every word, what HE was saying - Have you forgotten who the LORD Jesus Christ IS - IAM.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God

 

[lamad]

The Times of the Gentiles is NOT a falsely derived "Gentile Church" - satans religious lie

The lying must stop already - pre-trib, Gentile church, more then one Second Coming, more then one FIRST Resurrection and so on.

You are the one arguing and twisting the words of the LORD and the Apostles without any concern whatsoever.

Read all of Gospel of John, ACTS, ROMANS, GALATIANS, COLOSSIANS

"They are not all Israel who are of Israel" The Mother of us all is Jerusalem from Above, who is FREE with HER CHildren - SHE is Above and not in the flesh, on earth, in physical Israel who is in BONDAGE to SIN and the coming Judgment.

There is One Bride/Body of Christ - Jew and Gentile

The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

Whoever seeks to separate Jew from Gentile in CHRIST, assaults the Word of God.

Consider this and set yourself Free - No lie is of the Truth - Apostle John

You speak of truth is if you knew what it was. The evidence is against you.

I don't "twist:" I quote.

Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If LUKE can call Gentile believers as Gentiles, then I can also. No one can receive the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit unless first they are born again. So here Luke is calling born again believers as Gentiles.

Romans 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

God is the God of Gentiles also.

There is One Bride/Body of Christ - Jew and Gentile Finally, something I can agree with! Good job! In the physical realm they REMAIN Jew and Gentile. But in the realm of the Spirit, their own human spirits are identical: they have no ethnic identity.

Romans 16:4
Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

Paul talked of Gentile churches. Why is it you disagree with Paul?

 

[lamad]

See Brother - you need assistance from the Holy Spirit.

The LORD knew EXACTLY, every word, what HE was saying - Have you forgotten who the LORD Jesus Christ IS - IAM.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God

Words. Just words. That was a good side step! Do you deny that Paul put the rapture before the DAY?

 

[DavidTree]

You speak of truth is if you knew what it was. The evidence is against you.

I don't "twist:" I quote.

Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If LUKE can call Gentile believers as Gentiles, then I can also. No one can receive the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit unless first they are born again. So here Luke is calling born again believers as Gentiles.

Romans 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

God is the God of Gentiles also.

There is One Bride/Body of Christ - Jew and Gentile Finally, something I can agree with! Good job! In the physical realm they REMAIN Jew and Gentile. But in the realm of the Spirit, their own human spirits are identical: they have no ethnic identity.

Romans 16:4
Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

Paul talked of Gentile churches. Why is it you disagree with Paul?

And these Gentiles are now WHO in Christ???

Separate Church/Body for them???

Or are they grafted in to the Body of Christ - the Israel of God

 

[DavidTree]

Words. Just words. That was a good side step! Do you deny that Paul put the rapture before the DAY?

His Second Coming is the Day of the LORD = Matthew 24, 1 Thess and 2 Thess, Revelation ch19&20

One DAY resulting in two different outcomes = 1 Thess 1:10 and 2 Thess 2:1-12

READ and BELIEVE and do not add or take away

 

[lamad]

The "Times of the Gentiles" is NOT the Body of Christ.

The ToG is the Gentile Rule on earth until the LORD Returns = His Second Coming.

Reject the Vatican lie of a 'Gentile Church'.

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24which things are symbolic. For these are [g]the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

hen all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13And after they had [c]become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the [d]Lord who does all these things.’

Reject the Vatican lie of a 'Gentile Church'.
If Paul speaks of the Gentile church, why can't you?

Make no mistake, we are living in the dispensation of the Gentile church - PAUL's church. He started it. The Jewish church died out in the first century. When the Gentile church ENDS with the rapture, TIME will go right back to Jewish time. The Day of the Lord will start, and very shortly after that, the 70th week will start: JEWISH time. The church will be in heaven.

Question: How will YOU get to the marriage and supper in heaven? Have you figured it out yet?
Please explain where the sheep will come from at the sheep and goat judgment: made up of natural people.

 

[DavidTree]

Reject the Vatican lie of a 'Gentile Church'.
If Paul speaks of the Gentile church, why can't you?

Make no mistake, we are living in the dispensation of the Gentile church - PAUL's church. He started it. The Jewish church died out in the first century. When the Gentile church ENDS with the rapture, TIME will go right back to Jewish time. The Day of the Lord will start, and very shortly after that, the 70th week will start: JEWISH time. The church will be in heaven.

Question: How will YOU get to the marriage and supper in heaven? Have you figured it out yet?
Please explain where the sheep will come from at the sheep and goat judgment: made up of natural people.

Paul never speaks of a Gentile Church.

Paul speaks of the Gentiles who are GRAFTED IN CHRIST = the ONLY CHURCH GOD ORDAINED = HIS BODY = JEW & GENTILE

CHRIST is the ISRAEL of God - not the fleshly Jews who are in Bondage to Sin.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Read John ch8

 

[DavidTree]

When anyone asked the question WHEN in responding to the rapture, our first thought should be:

WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES SAY?

Well, what DO they say?

Who in the bible received the REVELATION of the rapture? It was Paul. Up until then, the fact that those alive and In Christ would be caught up and changed was a MYSTERY. Paul received His revelation YEARS (perhaps ten years) after Christ gave His end times discourse.

Question: if Jesus was thinking of the rapture when He mentioned the gathering, how then could Paul have written that it was a mystery when He received it?

What is Paul's order of events in 1 Thes. 4 & 5? It is the RAPTURE, then the DAY and then WRATH. However, we know the DAY is the day of WRATH. From Paul then, we know that the rapture PRECEDES the start of the Day of the Lord.

Where does John start the Day of the Lord in Revelation? AT the 6th seal, in Revelation chapter 6.

Where in Revelation would Jesus be when He stated "after the tribulation of those days?" "The tribulation" would certainly include the days of great tribulation, and those days of GT will be started and caused by the Beast and False Prophet forcing people to take their mark or lose their head. Where in Revelation will that begin? Certainly AFTER God warns people not to take the mark - in chapter 14. We see the beheaded (from the days of GT caused by the Beast) beginning to show up in heaven in Rev. 15. We see the 70th week END at the 7th vial. Therefore, when Jesus stated "after the tribulation of those days" He would be speaking of after the 7th vial in Revelation.

Since Paul's rapture must come before wrath, or before the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal, Revelation chapter 6, how in the world can the gathering in Matthew 24 sometime late in chapter 16, be the same gathering as a gathering sometime before the 6th seal start of Wrath?

Answer? It cannot be the same gathering.

As further proof, John SAW the raptured chuch in heaven shortly AFTER the 6th seal start of the Day of His Wrath.

Post-tribbers desparately need for John to have seen the great crowd of the raptured church somewhere in chapter 19 of Revelation to prove their theory. It is not there. It proves pretrib because John saw the raptured church before he started the 70th week.

In Matthew 24, who is Christ speaking to???

 

[DavidTree]

Reject the Vatican lie of a 'Gentile Church'.
If Paul speaks of the Gentile church, why can't you?

Make no mistake, we are living in the dispensation of the Gentile church - PAUL's church. He started it. The Jewish church died out in the first century. When the Gentile church ENDS with the rapture, TIME will go right back to Jewish time. The Day of the Lord will start, and very shortly after that, the 70th week will start: JEWISH time. The church will be in heaven.

Question: How will YOU get to the marriage and supper in heaven? Have you figured it out yet?
Please explain where the sheep will come from at the sheep and goat judgment: made up of natural people.

Who does God see? He sees Jews and Gentiles(the Nations).
Who does God see in His Son, the Body of Christ? He see all whom HE has Called to be adopted as Sons of God. Eph ch2

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace 16and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.

17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.


What was Joseph's Coat? Was it not the Coat of Many Colors?

Jacob loved Joseph more than any of his other children because Joseph had been born to him in his old age. So one day Jacob had a special gift made for Joseph—a beautiful robe, of many colors.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The "Times of the Gentiles" is NOT the Body of Christ.

The ToG is the Gentile Rule on earth until the LORD Returns = His Second Coming.

--The phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" indeed refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" (think: Neb's "dream / statue / image"... with Neb as "head of gold" [started in 606/605bc]... and which will run clear till the end of the 7 yr Trib, concluding with Christ's "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19... per Rev11:2 / Lk21:24c); it involves "Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles until...";

--The phrase "[UNTIL] the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]" is a completely DISTINCT thing, however (see its context: Rom11:25[15],27 ... "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]")

 

[DavidTree]

--The phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" indeed refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" (think: Neb's "dream / statue / image"... with Neb as "head of gold" [started in 606/605bc]... and which will run clear till the end of the 7 yr Trib, concluding with Christ's "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19... per Rev11:2 / Lk21:24c); it involves "Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles until...";

--The phrase "[UNTIL] the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]" is a completely DISTINCT thing, however (see its context: Rom11:25[15],27 ... "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]")

If you believe ALL of Romans and Galatians concerning the Body of Christ which is Jew & Gentile as ONE BODY - then we are on the same Page/Thought/Mind/Heart.

Read and accept ALL of Romans ch11 but do not isolate it from the Romans, Galatians,Ephesians, Colossians, Corinthians, Acts, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter and the Gospels.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come from Zion;

He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

27And this is My covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”h

28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.i 32For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone.

33O, the depth of the riches

of the wisdom and knowledge of God!

How unsearchable are His judgments,

and untraceable His ways!

34“Who has known the mind of the Lord?

Or who has been His counselor?”j

35“Who has first given to God,

that God should repay him?”k

36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

[GaryA]

Did you not stop to think that when Jesus taught the people about the end of their age, the Gentile church of today DID NOT EXIST. In fact, no part of the church existed at that time. Perhaps you don't understand: the church of today WOULD NOT exist if Israel had accepted their Messiah. They refuses so God sent Paul to the Gentiles.

Can you find any words in Matthew 24 that PROVE it is about the church? I have already shown you two proofs it is about the JEWS. The church did not meet in Synagogues. And the 70th week is not for the Gentiles.

Make no mistake, we are living in the dispensation of the Gentile church - PAUL's church. He started it. The Jewish church died out in the first century. When the Gentile church ENDS with the rapture, TIME will go right back to Jewish time. The Day of the Lord will start, and very shortly after that, the 70th week will start: JEWISH time. The church will be in heaven.

Oh, I see the problem now...

I don't have time right now - I will have to address it later.

 

[DavidTree]

If you disagree, find scriptures that prove I am in error. I will repent if I am in error. I have done it many times.

You seem obsessed with a thought in error: that pretrib is a lie. This fits today in the US very well. What is truth is called a lie, and what is a lie is imagined as truth. However, this is of the world. We are not of the world. We should be able to determine what is truth.

Question: did Paul put the DAY before the Rapture, or the RAPTURE before the DAY?
Answer from Scripture: Paul put the rapture FIRST, then the Day.

Why then are you so determined to SWITCH Paul's order? You did not receive the revelation of the Rapture! That was PAUL that received it. Why then would you imagine you know more about it than Paul?

WHERE was this great crowd when John saw them? Of course, they were IN HEAVEN. John did not see them arrive, did he? Well, did he? No, he saw them already there. That means they arrived in heaven some time BEFORE Rev. 7 timing. (this is just basic logic.)

WHEN then, did they leave earth and arrive in heaven? It HAD to be before the 6th seal start of WRATH. If you deny this, you are disagreeing with Paul.

ALL Scripture places the LORD's Second Coming for His Church/Bride/Body /Elect Saints BEFORE the Wrath of the Lamb.

Pre-trib is a lie because it never came out of the Mouth of God and cannot be found in Scripture.

A.) It divides the Body of Christ,
B.) separates Jew from Gentile in the Body/His Elect/His Saints,
C.) undermines Order/Purpose of Scripture.
D.) creates two gospels, one for the Jew and one for the Gentile
E.) creates a vile separation from His Saints and the falsely claimed 'tribulation saints' that are 'LEFT BEHIND'

From Genesis to Revelation, there is One Order of Events:
1.) GOD
2.) Creation
3.) satan/sin/trouble/death
4.) God's Warning of Judgment
5.) GRACE for His Called Out Ones
6.) Tribulation in the world/satan's wrath
7.) Deliverance from God's wrath thru GRACE
8.) Judgment upon the wicked

 

[Nehemiah6]

Pre-trib is a lie because it never came out of the Mouth of God and cannot be found in Scripture.

Since the Scriptures showing that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught the Pre-Tribulation Rapture have been posted many times, not only is this statement false, but it makes you the liar. Like I said -- CEASE AND DESIST.

 

[DavidTree]

Since the Scriptures showing that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught the Pre-Tribulation Rapture have been posted many times, not only is this statement false, but it makes you the liar. Like I said -- CEASE AND DESIST.

CEASE and DESIST from adding to and taking away from God's words - Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19

i noticed you are unable to bring forth the scripture of what you claim.

Are you willing to turn your heart to the words of the LORD???

For had the LORD said 'pre-trib rapture' it would be found in His words, in the Prophets, in the Gospel and in the Apostles writings.

Pre-trib is a lie because it never came out of the Mouth of God and cannot be found in Scripture as you just now proved.

"Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds," Colossians 3:9

 

[DavidTree]

When anyone asked the question WHEN in responding to the rapture, our first thought should be:

WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES SAY?

Well, what DO they say?

Who in the bible received the REVELATION of the rapture? It was Paul. Up until then, the fact that those alive and In Christ would be caught up and changed was a MYSTERY. Paul received His revelation YEARS (perhaps ten years) after Christ gave His end times discourse.

Question: if Jesus was thinking of the rapture when He mentioned the gathering, how then could Paul have written that it was a mystery when He received it?

What is Paul's order of events in 1 Thes. 4 & 5? It is the RAPTURE, then the DAY and then WRATH. However, we know the DAY is the day of WRATH. From Paul then, we know that the rapture PRECEDES the start of the Day of the Lord.

Where does John start the Day of the Lord in Revelation? AT the 6th seal, in Revelation chapter 6.

Where in Revelation would Jesus be when He stated "after the tribulation of those days?" "The tribulation" would certainly include the days of great tribulation, and those days of GT will be started and caused by the Beast and False Prophet forcing people to take their mark or lose their head. Where in Revelation will that begin? Certainly AFTER God warns people not to take the mark - in chapter 14. We see the beheaded (from the days of GT caused by the Beast) beginning to show up in heaven in Rev. 15. We see the 70th week END at the 7th vial. Therefore, when Jesus stated "after the tribulation of those days" He would be speaking of after the 7th vial in Revelation.

Since Paul's rapture must come before wrath, or before the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal, Revelation chapter 6, how in the world can the gathering in Matthew 24 sometime late in chapter 16, be the same gathering as a gathering sometime before the 6th seal start of Wrath?

Answer? It cannot be the same gathering.

As further proof, John SAW the raptured chuch in heaven shortly AFTER the 6th seal start of the Day of His Wrath.

Post-tribbers desparately need for John to have seen the great crowd of the raptured church somewhere in chapter 19 of Revelation to prove their theory. It is not there. It proves pretrib because John saw the raptured church before he started the 70th week.

There is no desperation in receiving the words' of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ who says: Matthew ch24

While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you."

Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.
Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Apostle Paul spoke the same words of the LORD:
By the word of the LORD, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

It is impossible for you to properly understand Revelation until you first know, accept and believe the words of the LORD and the Apostles on His Second Coming.

 

[ewq1938]

For example: Paul places the rapture BEFORE the Day of the Lord

No he doesn't. Probably the reason you didn't quote him. All you do is claim things wildly while ranting nonsense. You have never proven anything.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

See how I actually post scripture that proves that post-trib is right and pre-trib is wrong? Paul places the rapture ON the Day of the Lord. We have the dead being brought with Christ in verse 14, a second mention of "the coming of the Lord" verse 15, and a third reference "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven". No one can deny those are not second coming references and then we have the resurrection of the dead and the rapture mentioned proving, yet again, that the bible is post-trib only.

You didn't even cite one verse that addresses the rapture. No surprise because all of them clearly show post-trib so that's why you go to unrelated scriptures that do not address the rapture to use eisegesis to force a rapture in when the text speaks nothing of a rapture like you do with Revelation 7 (which is set in the eternity not soon after a rapture).