How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[DavidTree]

An "outright lie"? Show us what corresponds to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 in Revelation. We need an EXACT CORRESPONDENCE not an imaginary fantasy.

Dear Brother, i am for you and not against you.

PLEASE choose to Fear God and not add to or take away from His words = for YOUR own Eternal Safety

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
Revelation 22:18-19

 

[Charlie24]

A.) This is the emphasis: ORDER of EVENTS
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father,
when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
1 Cor 15:20-26

B.) His Second Coming has not yet occurred - therefore the Thousand Year Period has not yet occurred.
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands.
And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ,
and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:5-6

C.) After the Thousand Years have expired - Revelation 20:7-8

When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

D.) The last enemy, Death, will be finally destroyed - Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

OK, David, let's clarify something here!

Rev. 20:4

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

These are ONLY the tribulation saints here. The Church has been taken out just before the tribulation began, they are out of all this!

These are the ones saved during the tribulation, the first resurrection which is associated with the raptured saints. These shall reign a 1000 years with Christ. It is all the saved from the very beginning of man to this point in time.

Rev. 20:5

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

These are all the unsaved of all time who have died without Christ, they are not resurrected now, they are resurrected after the 1000 years and judged at the Great White Throne of Judgement in 20:11-15.

Rev. 20:6

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The ones who are blessed are the one who are saved! They had part in the first resurrection, both at the rapture saints before the tribulation and those who gave their life for Christ during the tribulation. These will reign with Christ for a 1000 years, while the unsaved have not been resurrected yet.

Now all we have left are the ones saved in the tribulation and survived, yet living. They have their natural bodies and will repopulate the earth during the 1000 year reign.

The lost who survived the tribulation are sentenced to everlasting punishment, per Matt. 25:31-46.

This allows for the earth to repopulate during the 1000 year reign of Christ, where the post-trib view does not.

 

[Friend]

Hello: Being thoroughly steeped in the traditions of the so-called fathers, has (by now) been the basis for developing perspective. After all, Jesus indicated that false prophets would be going out. It seems that the true prophets would be like their leader (the Tender Shoot) growing out of parched ground. Jesus indicated the Gospel of the Kingdom would go out as a testimony for all the nations to see, before the end would come. Therefore, we are living in the times where an opportunity is being given, in order to re-examine everything, rather than having to rely on tradition.

 

[DavidTree]

OK, David, let's clarify something here!

Rev. 20:4

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

These are ONLY the tribulation saints here. The Church has been taken out just before the tribulation began, they are out of all this!

These are the ones saved during the tribulation, the first resurrection which is associated with the raptured saints. These shall reign a 1000 years with Christ. It is all the saved from the very beginning of man to this point in time.

Rev. 20:5

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

These are all the unsaved of all time who have died without Christ, they are not resurrected now, they are resurrected after the 1000 years and judged at the Great White Throne of Judgement in 20:11-15.

Rev. 20:6

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The ones who are blessed are the one who are saved! They had part in the first resurrection, both at the rapture saints before the tribulation and those who gave their life for Christ during the tribulation. These will reign with Christ for a 1000 years, while the unsaved have not been resurrected yet.

Now all we have left are the ones saved in the tribulation and survived, yet living. They have their natural bodies and will repopulate the earth during the 1000 year reign.

The lost who survived the tribulation are sentenced to everlasting punishment, per Matt. 25:31-46.

This allows for the earth to repopulate during the 1000 year reign of Christ, where the post-trib view does not.

ADDING to God's words which is sin. Why do you choose to sin against God?

 

[Charlie24]

ADDING to God's words which is sin. Why do you choose to sin against God?

Read it for real and see that what I have shown you is indeed the truth!

 

[Nehemiah6]

PLEASE choose to Fear God and not add to or take away from His words = for YOUR own Eternal Safety

Where is the passage in Revelation which corresponds to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18? That is the only issue you need to address right now. Since I am neither adding to nor taking away from Scripture, that accusation is simply a red herring -- a deflection.

 

[DavidTree]

Where is the passage in Revelation which corresponds to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18? That is the only issue you need to address right now. Since I am neither adding to nor taking away from Scripture, that accusation is simply a red herring -- a deflection.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain
until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’ Rev 2:11

And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4-6

 

[DavidTree]

Read it for real and see that what I have shown you is indeed the truth!

ADDED to the Revelation of the LORD Jesus Christ = "These are ONLY the tribulation saints here. The Church has been taken out just before the tribulation began, they are out of all this!"

ADDED to Revelation of the LORD Jesus Christ = "both at the rapture saints before the tribulation "

 

[Charlie24]

ADDED to the Revelation of the LORD Jesus Christ = "These are ONLY the tribulation saints here. The Church has been taken out just before the tribulation began, they are out of all this!"

ADDED to Revelation of the LORD Jesus Christ = "both at the rapture saints before the tribulation "

What would you say of the post-tribbers when they say the church goes through the tribulation and have not one iota of proof for that!

Would you say that is a classic case of "assuming?" The Church saints are not even mentioned in Rev 20, only the tribulation saints who gave their life for Christ.

Now you assume the Church saints are included here, show me you are not assuming by giving me the scripture where this resurrection includes them!

 

[DavidTree]

What would you say of the post-tribbers when they say the church goes through the tribulation and have not one iota of proof for that!

Would you say that is a classic case of "assuming?" The Church saints are not even mentioned in Rev 20, only the tribulation saints who gave their life for Christ.

Now you assume the Church saints are included here, show me you are not assuming by giving me the scripture where this resurrection includes the them!

JESUS is the POST TRIBBER
HE endured cruel mocking
HE endured false witnesses against Him and a illegal Judicial Proceeding under God's Law
HE endured being BEATEN
HE endured being WHIPPED
AND as if this were not enough
HE endure carrying His Cross and being nailed to it.

The Scripture says that HE was beaten and torn apart so viciously that if you knew Him and looked upon Him you would not be able to recognize Him.

HE Resurrected AFTER His Great Tribulation

ALL Saints are Church Saints - ALL His Saints are HIS Elect - ALL His are HIS BODY = HIS BRIDE

 

[Charlie24]

JESUS is the POST TRIBBER
HE endured cruel mocking
HE endured false witnesses against Him and a illegal Judicial Proceeding under God's Law
HE endured being BEATEN
HE endured being WHIPPED
AND as if this were not enough
HE endure carrying His Cross and being nailed to it.

The Scripture says that HE was beaten and torn apart so viciously that if you knew Him and looked upon Him you would not be able to recognize Him.

HE Resurrected AFTER His Great Tribulation

ALL Saints are Church Saints - ALL His Saints are HIS Elect - ALL His are HIS BODY = HIS BRIDE

That's what I thought, David, you have nothing to say about it. Just keep believing you are not assuming, right!

 

[Runningman]

What would you say of the post-tribbers when they say the church goes through the tribulation and have not one iota of proof for that!

Would you say that is a classic case of "assuming?" The Church saints are not even mentioned in Rev 20, only the tribulation saints who gave their life for Christ.

Now you assume the Church saints are included here, show me you are not assuming by giving me the scripture where this resurrection includes them!

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is Jesus' gold standard for when the gathering of His elect occurs. That's the rapture.

This should be understood first and foremost before attempting to understand the rest of eschatology. It turns out that pre-tribbers will seemingly say anything to avoid that fact.

Jesus said He returns after the tribulation, with His angels, on the clouds, with the sound of a trumpet, to gather His elect. Look at the other rapture verses and you'll see that Paul agrees. See 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[DavidTree]

That's what I thought, David, you have nothing to say about it. Just keep believing you are not assuming, right!

JESUS is the PATTERN of FAITH we are to follow.
HIS words we are to obey and dare not change in any way.
HE says: "Immediately after the Tribulation..........I am Coming." - Matt ch24

His Apostles we are to follow their instruction which is expect Tribulation & Persecution for His Name - 1 Thess 3:1-5

Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith,
that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know. For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

2 Thess 1:3-5 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your
patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

1 John 2:18=19 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming,
even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
They departed from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

2 Thess 2:1-3 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

Every person who speaks pre-trib rapture prior to the Antichrist and the Resurrection is using deceptive words.

 

[Charlie24]

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is Jesus' gold standard for when the gathering of His elect occurs. That's the rapture.

This should be understood first and foremost before attempting to understand the rest of eschatology. It turns out that pre-tribbers will seemingly say anything to avoid that fact.

Jesus said He returns after the tribulation, with His angels, on the clouds, with the sound of a trumpet, to gather His elect. Look at the other rapture verses and you'll see that Paul agrees. See 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

I've said it here before and I'll say it again, the elect of Matt. 24:31 IS iSRAEL!!!

This is not the gathering of the Gentile saints, Jesus has just saved Israel from a sure inhalation at His Second Coming from the anti-christ. Now His angels gather His elect (Israel) all the Jews in the world, from one end of earth to the other.

They are brought together now that they know Jesus was their Messiah all along. At this point you couldn't keep a Jew away from Israel.

They were facing certain death from the anti-christ, he was about to do what Hitler couldn't do, completely wipe out the Jews.

I will have to look up the scripture as I can't remember right now, But God says in reference to this sure death of Israel, "they shall call on my name and I shall deliver them, and I will be their God and they shall be my people."

This is referring to Israel facing certain inhalation from the anti-christ, and then calling on God to save them. To their total dismay, it is Jesus Christ who splits the Eastern sky, riding a white horse and saves them.

Zechariah said there will great mourning in the land of Israel on that day, when they see the One who they have pierced, (Jesus).

They realize they have been wrong about Jesus all these centuries and they are shocked, and in deep sorrow.

 

[Runningman]

I've said it here before and I'll say it again, the elect of Matt. 24:31 IS iSRAEL!!!

This is not the gathering of the Gentile saints, Jesus has just saved Israel from a sure inhalation at His Second Coming from the anti-christ. Now His angels gather His elect (Israel) all the Jews in the world, from one end of earth to the other.

They are brought together now that they know Jesus was their Messiah all along. At this point you couldn't keep a Jew away from Israel.

They were facing certain death from the anti-christ, he was about to do what Hitler couldn't do, completely wipe out the Jews.

I will have to look up the scripture as I can't remember right now, But God says in reference to this sure death of Israel, "they shall call on my name and I shall deliver them, and I will be their God and they shall be my people."

This is referring to Israel facing certain inhalation from the anti-christ, and then calling on God to save them. To their total dismay, it is Jesus Christ who splits the Eastern sky, riding a white horse and saves them.

Zechariah said there will great mourning in the land of Israel on that day, when they see the One who they have pierced, (Jesus).

They realize they have been wrong about Jesus all these centuries and they are shocked, and in deep sorrow.

You got that all wrong. Using three exclamation points isn't helping your case, neither would using four or five exclamation points help.

Do you know who true Israel is? Here's a hint: they aren't genetic Jews who don't believe in the Messiah. Those are called unbelievers. True Israel are those who believe in the Messiah and yes many of them are genetically gentile, but spiritually Jewish with a circumcised heart and spirit. This is New Testament 101.

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is about the modern day church who will be raptured after the great tribulation, before the day of the Lord.

 

[Charlie24]

You got that all wrong. Using three exclamation points isn't helping your case, neither would using four or five exclamation points help.

Do you know who true Israel is? Here's a hint: they aren't genetic Jews who don't believe in the Messiah. Those are called unbelievers. True Israel are those who believe in the Messiah and yes many of them are genetically gentile, but spiritually Jewish with a circumcised heart and spirit. This is New Testament 101.

Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is about the modern day church who will be raptured after the great tribulation, before the day of the Lord.

Now you're going to tell me who Israel is! I can tell you who Paul said they are.

Rom. 2:28-29

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

The Jew (Israel) is all who have been circumcised of the heart, in other words, who have been saved.

There is the natural vine (descendants of Abraham) and the grafted in vine (Gentiles).

Together they are Israel! The sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Runningman]

Now you're going to tell me who Israel is! I can tell you who Paul said they are.

Rom. 2:28-29

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

The Jew (Israel) is all who have been circumcised of the heart, in other words, who have been saved.

There is the natural vine (descendants of Abraham) and the grafted in vine (Gentiles).

Together they are Israel! The sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

Great. Then when you said Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is for Israel, you meant those who are saved. Those are believers like you and me who will be gathered after the tribulation by angels. That's the rapture. Now you see it; we are the elect.

 

[Charlie24]

Great. Then when you said Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is for Israel, you meant those who are saved. Those are believers like you and me who will be gathered after the tribulation by angels. That's the rapture. Now you see it; we are the elect.

LOL, you're a funny guy, Runningman! The elect are the saved in Christ. The scripture speaks of 2 elects and they are determined by context of scripture.

The chosen elect of God, chosen for a purpose/ Israel.

The elect of God chosen for salvation/ Gentiles

Israel is the "chosen elect of God by being given the Law when the rest of the world had nothing from God, they were chosen as the womb for the Saviour of the world, not the Gentiles. They were chosen and given these things to bring the world to Christ. Of course they failed, but God did not change His mind on that calling because they failed, as Paul said, they will complete this calling in the 1000 year reign of Christ as children are born into this world, the chosen elect, Israel will bring these to Christ for 1000 years.

 

[DavidTree]

LOL, you're a funny guy, Runningman! The elect are the saved in Christ. The scripture speaks of 2 elects and they are determined by context of scripture.

The chosen elect of God, chosen for a purpose/ Israel.

The elect of God chosen for salvation/ Gentiles

Israel is the "chosen elect of God by being given the Law when the rest of the world had nothing from God, they were chosen as the womb for the Saviour of the world, not the Gentiles. They were chosen and given these things to bring the world to Christ. Of course they failed, but God did not change His mind on that calling because they failed, as Paul said, they will complete this calling in the 1000 year reign of Christ as children are born into this world, the chosen elect, Israel will bring these to Christ for 1000 years.

O foolish Charlie24! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.


The LORD says: "What God has joined together let no man separate." Mark 10:9

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

as He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

 

[Charlie24]

O foolish Charlie24! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.


The LORD says: "What God has joined together let no man separate." Mark 10:9

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

as He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

That was a nice little sermonette there David, I enjoyed that! But was it directed in the right direction?

"They are not all Israel who are of Israel" is Paul saying that God only considers the saved in Christ to be Israel, which goes right back to my last post. The saved of both Jew and Gentile are Israel.

That would mean, as Paul points out, that the unsaved of Israel are not Israel in God's eyes. You see, all the Jews believed they were saved by the virtue of being given the Law and being the womb of the Messiah as promised by Moses.