How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
That was a nice little sermonette there David, I enjoyed that! But was it directed in the right direction?

"They are not all Israel who are of Israel" is Paul saying that God only considers the saved in Christ to be Israel, which goes right back to my last post. The saved of both Jew and Gentile are Israel.

That would mean, as Paul points out, that the unsaved of Israel are not Israel in God's eyes. You see, all the Jews believed they were saved by the virtue of being given the Law and being the womb of the Messiah as promised by Moses.
You asked: "They are not all Israel who are of Israel" is Paul saying that God only considers the saved in Christ to be Israel?
answer: YES

You said: "The saved of both Jew and Gentile are Israel."
answer: CORRECT

When you were Born-Again by the Spirit - to what family were your Born into???
Whose child did you become???
What name did you inherit by adoption???
Who gave you the authority to be a Heir???
What is the Guarantee of Inheritance???
What will you inherit???


Answer these questions, if you can, according to Scripture only.
 

Charlie24

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2021
998
270
63
You asked: "They are not all Israel who are of Israel" is Paul saying that God only considers the saved in Christ to be Israel?
answer: YES

You said: "The saved of both Jew and Gentile are Israel."
answer: CORRECT

When you were Born-Again by the Spirit - to what family were your Born into???
Whose child did you become???
What name did you inherit by adoption???
Who gave you the authority to be a Heir???
What is the Guarantee of Inheritance???
What will you inherit???


Answer these questions, if you can, according to Scripture only.
We all know the answer to these questions, even the most unlearned believers among us know.

What is the point, David? Surly you have one.
 
Nov 27, 2021
87
21
8
Jesus said “THIS generation shall not pass until all things are fulfilled”.

In order to get any of the “Future” theories of a PRE or POST tribulation doctrines, would be scholars, preachers and teachers, had to somehow lift the above verse to mean that the generation that Jesus was referring to is when the literal sun stops shining and the moon is darkened.

Another theory that they say, since Christ did not fulfill His week [the final week of 70 years], since He was cut off in the midst of it, the final week was deferred to an unknown future time frame.

Because these “literal” things hasn’t happened yet, it must be for another time period. But, what if, just what if, that all of what Jesus said was imagery? That all that He spoke of came from Old Testament situations the Jews found themselves in with other superpowers of the day?

What if Daniel 9:27 which is one of the foundations of all the PRE and Post tribulation thought derives from, just what if that the verse is talking about Jesus Christ confirming the covenant with many for one week (the 70th week) the week that He was cut off in the middle of it. What if it’s not an Anti Christ making a peace treaty with Israel.

What if the desolator is Jesus Christ in Spirit using the Roman Army to destroy Jerusalem? God did it before in the Old Testament with Babylon.

What if the overspreading of abominations is animal sacrifices that continue on AFTER the death of Christ and they were considered ”abominations” in the sight of God?

How did Jacob know that he was the Sun and his wife was the Moon and the Stars were his sons, after he heard Joseph tell about his dream that the Sun, Moon and the Stars would bow down and worship him?

Is it possible that when Jesus said that the sun would be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars of the heaven shall be shaken, would anyone dare to think that He was referring to the end of the Jewish economy of animal sacrifices, the end of praying toward the temple, an end of seeing Jerusalem as the city of God on earth?

Where is the kingdom of God today? Where is the Kingdom of Heaven today? Where is the new heaven and earth today? Where is new Jerusalem today? I know where it’s at, but most people want to see it wth their eyes and it will never happen.

I said a lot of ”what if’s”, but it was needful. We need to rethink and let the Holy Spirit do the talking.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
LOL, you're a funny guy, Runningman! The elect are the saved in Christ. The scripture speaks of 2 elects and they are determined by context of scripture.

The chosen elect of God, chosen for a purpose/ Israel.

The elect of God chosen for salvation/ Gentiles

Israel is the "chosen elect of God by being given the Law when the rest of the world had nothing from God, they were chosen as the womb for the Saviour of the world, not the Gentiles. They were chosen and given these things to bring the world to Christ. Of course they failed, but God did not change His mind on that calling because they failed, as Paul said, they will complete this calling in the 1000 year reign of Christ as children are born into this world, the chosen elect, Israel will bring these to Christ for 1000 years.
Unbelievers are not elect no matter who they are, no matter what they do, whose seed they are from, which tribe they descended from, or any other criteria aside from faith in Christ. They will not be gathered to meet the Lord in the air and forever be with the Lord.

Suspend any possibility that there is any way to the Father except through the Son. The only possible people left who make the cut are believers called the church. Let that sink in for a while. When you are ready to be honest with yourself you'll abandon the notion of a pre-trib rapture.
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
We all know the answer to these questions, even the most unlearned believers among us know.

What is the point, David? Surly you have one.
Then it should be no-problem to find a Scripture for each of the six questions - Thank You
 

Charlie24

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2021
998
270
63
Unbelievers are not elect no matter who they are, no matter what they do, whose seed they are from, which tribe they descended from, or any other criteria aside from faith in Christ. They will not be gathered to meet the Lord in the air and forever be with the Lord.

Suspend any possibility that there is any way to the Father except through the Son. The only possible people left who make the cut are believers called the church. Let that sink in for a while. When you are ready to be honest with yourself you'll abandon the notion of a pre-trib rapture.
I don't even understand what you are saying. Of course only the saved are raptured.

You will have to explain that last paragraph. This makes on sense to me at all.
 
May 22, 2020
2,382
358
83
Ok, the Millennial Kingdom is something I won't even pretend to be an expert on. Truth is I need much study in this area.

Honestly, though it doesn't seem to fit as happening after the tribulation according to the rest of the scriptures.

I may be mistaken but I hear people saying ....at the end of tribulation, Satan is going to be locked up...while the world just starts over (with only the saints and those in Christ who are saved) and then after 1000 years, Satan is going to be loosed to deceive the nations.

The dead in Christ will have rose again and the ones who make it through the tribulation will all be saved and changed in a twinkling of an eye.

So, who is he going to deceive after that point? Makes no sense to me.

Study scriptures again..for your sake. It is there in black and white...there is a rapture and great tribulation.
If you don't want to take other folks interpretation of the scriptures....very smart I might ad...search it your self. It's there. Those who oppose biblical language of clear clarity...in most part, are new age religion types and don't accept other clear interpretations as well.

When finished if not convinced...let us know and we (I) will show you all the references that convinces.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,074
1,278
113
The dead in Christ will have rose again and the ones who make it through the tribulation will all be saved and changed in a twinkling of an eye.

So, who is he going to deceive after that point? Makes no sense to me.
Scripture tells us:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
 
May 22, 2020
2,382
358
83
Dear Brother, i am for you and not against you.

PLEASE choose to Fear God and not add to or take away from His words = for YOUR own Eternal Safety

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
Revelation 22:18-19
Amen.
Also two/three same warnings of such magnitude in other books of the Bible.
 
May 22, 2020
2,382
358
83
Jesus said “THIS generation shall not pass until all things are fulfilled”.

In order to get any of the “Future” theories of a PRE or POST tribulation doctrines, would be scholars, preachers and teachers, had to somehow lift the above verse to mean that the generation that Jesus was referring to is when the literal sun stops shining and the moon is darkened.

Another theory that they say, since Christ did not fulfill His week [the final week of 70 years], since He was cut off in the midst of it, the final week was deferred to an unknown future time frame.

Because these “literal” things hasn’t happened yet, it must be for another time period. But, what if, just what if, that all of what Jesus said was imagery? That all that He spoke of came from Old Testament situations the Jews found themselves in with other superpowers of the day?

What if Daniel 9:27 which is one of the foundations of all the PRE and Post tribulation thought derives from, just what if that the verse is talking about Jesus Christ confirming the covenant with many for one week (the 70th week) the week that He was cut off in the middle of it. What if it’s not an Anti Christ making a peace treaty with Israel.

What if the desolator is Jesus Christ in Spirit using the Roman Army to destroy Jerusalem? God did it before in the Old Testament with Babylon.

What if the overspreading of abominations is animal sacrifices that continue on AFTER the death of Christ and they were considered ”abominations” in the sight of God?

How did Jacob know that he was the Sun and his wife was the Moon and the Stars were his sons, after he heard Joseph tell about his dream that the Sun, Moon and the Stars would bow down and worship him?

Is it possible that when Jesus said that the sun would be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars of the heaven shall be shaken, would anyone dare to think that He was referring to the end of the Jewish economy of animal sacrifices, the end of praying toward the temple, an end of seeing Jerusalem as the city of God on earth?

Where is the kingdom of God today? Where is the Kingdom of Heaven today? Where is the new heaven and earth today? Where is new Jerusalem today? I know where it’s at, but most people want to see it wth their eyes and it will never happen.

I said a lot of ”what if’s”, but it was needful. We need to rethink and let the Holy Spirit do the talking.
We are reminded that the Bible says..."some things are reserved for our Father's knowledge only.....(and).....it shall be revealed in due time".
I am swayed that Christ's comments ....this generation.... is tied to the generation as of the assembly an appearance of the country of Israel as of May 15, 1948. If correct then the rapture will occur before the last person dies who was living as of that date and such will validate that scripture.
 
May 22, 2020
2,382
358
83
Ok, the Millennial Kingdom is something I won't even pretend to be an expert on. Truth is I need much study in this area.

Honestly, though it doesn't seem to fit as happening after the tribulation according to the rest of the scriptures.

I may be mistaken but I hear people saying ....at the end of tribulation, Satan is going to be locked up...while the world just starts over (with only the saints and those in Christ who are saved) and then after 1000 years, Satan is going to be loosed to deceive the nations.

The dead in Christ will have rose again and the ones who make it through the tribulation will all be saved and changed in a twinkling of an eye.

So, who is he going to deceive after that point? Makes no sense to me.
Neither does it make sense to me either. Such suggest validation is needed.
Therefore, do a search and assemble scriptures in context. You will see the clarity that there will be a ..... Rapture....(taken up)....pre-tribulation and those will be the saved from all ages........the Philadelphia church....... and then the tribulation will occur and the 2nd advent of Christ will ensue...later in that...."week"...(7) years....3 1/2 in the first half and 3 1/2 in the 2nd half, etc.

Should you need help, please advise.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,074
1,278
113
We are reminded that the Bible says..."some things are reserved for our Father's knowledge only.....(and).....it shall be revealed in due time".
I am swayed that Christ's comments ....this generation.... is tied to the generation as of the assembly an appearance of the country of Israel as of May 15, 1948. If correct then the rapture will occur before the last person dies who was living as of that date and such will validate that scripture.
The date is not correct. There is no prophecy tied to Israel becoming a nation again.
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
I can do that, but not going to until I know what the point is! You don't lead this pony by the tail!
We are seeking the Truth of exactly who the Israel of God is, as this has profound impact on His Second Coming.
also
i count it all Joy when i am asked about what and why i believe the things of God.
 

Charlie24

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2021
998
270
63
We are seeking the Truth of exactly who the Israel of God is, as this has profound impact on His Second Coming.
also
i count it all Joy when i am asked about what and why i believe the things of God.
Well, I can tell you one thing, you have left out Israel, and that makes a profound impact on God!

The reason for His Second Coming is Israel, to save them from the world who has joined the anti-christ in ridding this world of God's chosen people. You can see from scripture how God feels about this.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
Ok, the Millennial Kingdom is something I won't even pretend to be an expert on. Truth is I need much study in this area.

Honestly, though it doesn't seem to fit as happening after the tribulation according to the rest of the scriptures.

I may be mistaken but I hear people saying ....at the end of tribulation, Satan is going to be locked up...while the world just starts over (with only the saints and those in Christ who are saved) and then after 1000 years, Satan is going to be loosed to deceive the nations.

The dead in Christ will have rose again and the ones who make it through the tribulation will all be saved and changed in a twinkling of an eye.

So, who is he going to deceive after that point? Makes no sense to me.

Agreed 1ofthem! If an explanation is convoluted and confusing and more importantly does not align with the rest of scripture then it is false.

Occmans Razor states that "Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected."

And this quote by Sir Issac Newton: “Truth is ever to be found in simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things”

We must always test scripture against scripture--much of the New Testament scripture using literal language to explain the end times--just as you summarized so well here--Occam would give you a pat on the back! ;)

Since the literal verses say the end comes immediately after Christ' coming--that is the destruction of the wicked along with the heavens and the earth--only believers will be living on the newly created heavens and earth. Scripture never ever contradicts itself.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
A.) This is the emphasis: ORDER of EVENTS
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father,
when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
1 Cor 15:20-26

B.) His Second Coming has not yet occurred - therefore the Thousand Year Period has not yet occurred.
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands.
And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.
This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ,

and will reign with Him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:5-6

C.) After the Thousand Years have expired - Revelation 20:7-8

When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

D.) The last enemy, Death, will be finally destroyed - Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Question
Is Revelation 20 suppose to be interpreted literally or symbolically? What about the 1000 years?
Answer
There are many views of the millennium, or thousand-year period (Rev. 20:1-6). The three most prominent are Pre-Millennialism (Pre-Mill); Post-Millennialism (Post-Mill); and Amillennialism (A-Mill). In general, Pre-Millennialism believes the millennium begins after the Second Coming of Christ. In Post-Mill (meaning, "after the millennium"), the assertion made is that the millennium occurs toward the end of the church age. In the A-Mill, view we assert that the millennium was: (1) inaugurated in Christ's life, death, resurrection and ascension; (2) continues through the church age; and (3) then is consummated at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Those in the Pre-Mill camp normally look at Revelation and take it literally. However, can a chain literally hold the Devil? (Rev. 20:1). What kind of lock or seal is John referring too? Of course, we should also ask what is a Dragon as well? Is this to be literally interpreted too? Apparently not, as the Apostle John also refers to him as "that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan" (Rev. 20:2). In other words, John sees the Dragon as the serpent in the Garden (Gen. 3:1), who is the equivalent of the Devil or Satan. So, John himself says he is using the word symbolically. Since this is the case, then shouldn't 1,000 years be interpreted symbolically too?

The book of Revelation contains multiple visions. Since this is the case, the Apocalypse uses a lot of symbolism. For instance:
(to see list of symbols click on the article link at the end--could not post all because of word count limit)​

While the list above is not by any means exhaustive, every chapter of the book of Revelation contains symbolism; this includes Revelation 20. So, one applying literal interpretation methods will necessarily misinterpret the entire book.​

1,000 years should also be interpreted symbolically. There are many reasons for this: (1) the figurative use of numbers in the Apocalypse (Rev. 5:11; 7:4-9; 9:16; 14:1; 21:16); (2) the figurative use of other terms (chain, abyss, dragon, serpent, locked, sealed, etc.) in Revelation 20; (3) the figurative use of 1000 in the Old Testament (Deut. 1:1-11; 7:9; 32:30; Josh. 23:10; Job 9:3; 33:23; Pss. 50:10; 68:17; 84:10; Eccl. 6:6; Song 4:4; Isa. 7:23; Isa. 30:17; and especially 1 Chron. 16:15-17 = Psa. 105:8-10, where God's "covenant forever" and "everlasting covenant" are equated with "the word which He commanded to a thousand generations"). See Greg Beale in The Book of Revelation (The New International Greek Testament Commentary, Eerdmans).

Related Questions:
Other reasons Amillennialism is correct?

Answer by Dr. Joseph R. Nally, Jr.
Dr. Joseph R. Nally, Jr., D.D., M.Div. is the Theological Editor at Third Millennium Ministries (Thirdmill).

https://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/46755
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
Scripture tells us:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
EWQ,

One of the reasons that this doctrine is so dangerous is that there are going to millions of believers not ready when Christ comes because they don't understand there is no literal thousand year reign--they are the ones that will be the most likely to be deceived by false christs and the anti-christ, not those who do not believe in the 1000 year reign -- we are watching for the deception and know to always be ready.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,074
1,278
113
]EWQ,

One of the reasons that this doctrine is so dangerous is that there are going to millions of believers not ready when Christ comes
No, they will be very ready.

Tell us, what major prophetic event is Amill waiting for?
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
We get out!

Luke 21:20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand…Jesus was quoting from Daniel 9:27.

Daniel 9:27 "And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.' "

Luke 21:21 "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."
The point is....
God, is doing the judging.

The devil is the tool used to do it.

You missed the point.