Hyper grace

[james57]

I believe that Romans 7:14-25 is just talking about Paul describing a "situation"..it has nothing to do with being a mature Christian at all....it has nothing to do with the fact that we ..in our new man do have dominion over sin ....he is just describing the body/flesh/sin part...nothing to do with the spirit of man where Christ is.

He is just describing a "situation of the body"..he is not thinking about walking in the spirit ..this situation is in our flesh/body when we are saved or not saved.."sin"..the noun..the entity is in the flesh whether we are saved or not...I mam with ladylnn that Paul was saved s he sadi..I concur with the law ( doing good ) with my inner man but I am incapable of doing anything about on my own.

I see no conflict at all with romans 7:14-25 and romans 6:14.

Joseph Prince and Farley in the video both believe the same thing ( which does not mean it's correct just because they think so..lol )

Did you have a chance to see any of the videos that speak to this area?

Paul is describing himself in those verses. As you and i both believe in our new nature we cannot sin we both know when Paul speaks of sin not being our master for we are not under law but under grace he has to mean in the flesh. When he speaks of the need for holy living he must mean concerning the flesh for I repeat we both agree the new nature cannot sin
So for the life of ne I cannot understand how you can see no conflict between rom 7:14-25 and rom 6:14

By your own admittance sin reigned in Paul and he didn't follow after the spirit I those verses in rom ch7

That doesn't only contradict rom 6:14 but most other things he preached also if he I speaking as a christian in those verses


I could tell you, you are digging a huge hole for yourself here, but you wouldn't accept it

 

[ladylynn]

I haven't read this lengthy thread, but anyone who rails against someone like Joseph Prince, I have to question why. The term, "hyper grace" is pejorative and lacking in real understanding of what God's grace actually does for us. Far too many Christians are in dire need of a revelation of God's grace.


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Hey welcome to the thread Euphemia! Glad you confess the gospel of grace and truth. me too. There are many people who rail against Joseph Prince here on CC. And anyone who preaches grace as Paul preached it. I'm a fan of preachers who magnify the work of Jesus and His truth and grace for our daily lives. Please join in and add your thoughts. Welcome sister!!!

 

[Grace777x70]

here is another video that helped me to understand the flesh...it's an analogy about the former administration of the president....the Americans will relate to this one...lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYQxHB-U6NU

 

[Grace777x70]

did you have a chance to view the videos yet?

Paul is describing himself in those verses. As you and i both believe in our new nature we cannot sin we both know when Paul speaks of sin not being our master for we are not under law but under grace he has to mean in the flesh. When he speaks of the need for holy living he must mean concerning the flesh for I repeat we both agree the new nature cannot sin
So for the life of ne I cannot understand how you can see no conflict between rom 7:14-25 and rom 6:14

By your own admittance sin reigned in Paul and he didn't follow after the spirit I those verses in rom ch7

That doesn't only contradict rom 6:14 but most other things he preached also if he I speaking as a christian in those verses


I could tell you, you are digging a huge hole for yourself here, but you wouldn't accept it

 

[james57]

??Not sure where you are coming from James57., When Paul was an unbeliever he thought being a good man who followed the law was giving him good points with God. He was totally sure his self righteousness that he was pleasing to God...that even his persecution of Christians was done in God's name and God was just soooo happy with him. He was wrong. All his righteousness's were as filthy rags... if he thought he was A-OK that didn't matter., he was dead and wrong. He wasn't trying to BE sincere he already thought he was sincerely right. no struggle for him.

1 Cor.2:14 But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised..discerned

A pharisee can be ardent and willing to die for his belief but that makes no difference as far as the truth is concerned., his sincerity won't get him approved before God. Paul did not struggle with the Spirit in him and he was very happy to walk his religious walk. That is until Jesus met him on the road and blinded him.

This is important to see. Only a believer can give spiritual truth but an unsaved person can't. In his unsaved state, Paul can't give out the mind of Christ since He didn't have it nor did he struggle with it until after he got saved. Romans is a book about saved people to saved people. We don't need to know how an unsaved man feels since we have already been there. We need to know how to think as the new. We need to learn how to conform to the image of Christ. So am a bit confused why you think Paul was writing from an unsaved man's point of view when he wrote Romans being led by the HolySpirit.

When Paul lived under the law all manner of concupiscence was aroused I him( rom7:8. Would he have not known that as a Pharisee? I am sure he would. Would he not as a Pharisee have been desperate to obey the ten commandments, the pinnacle of the law? I am sure he would.
Therefore as a Pharisee the members of his body waged war with the law in his mind.
Paul may at that time have sought to excuse the sin, but the turmoil must have happened
As a christian looking back at that tine he would be describing I perfectly in verses 14-25

I disagree again. Saved people need to know the truth of the Gospel but also the consequences of living under the law.

 

[ladylynn]

Amen!...thank you for recommending Paul Washer...I will look him up..do you remember what the title of his talk would be>,,he's on youtube?

Wommack I have his commentary on my bible software...and I like a lot of his stuff...I'm with you on the part where he says a believer can walk away from God..he does use the cavet that he has never seen it. I think he is trying to reconcile Hebrews 10..but there are other views on that too....good ones that are in line with grace....I have never heard him talk about the other stuff you referenced.

yes..God is good!

opps , I thought the guy you posted with the message was Paul Washer. My mistake. sorry.
I do wish A.Wommack had the whole Bible in commentary. No commentary on Hebrews or other books that i wanted to see his thoughts on. He has some good points.

 

[james57]

did you have a chance to view the videos yet?

To be honest I am not interested in watching them. I have my own beliefs, and am content with them

 

[Grace777x70]

Well..it is obvious that we are not articulating what we are seeing well enough...so if you are not willing to go look and see what is being said..we have no common basis in order to discuss the subject...that's no problem! We are blessed! We have an abundance of grace in Him!

To be honest I am not interested in watching them. I have my own beliefs, and am content with them

 

[james57]

??Not sure where you are coming from James57., When Paul was an unbeliever he thought being a good man who followed the law was giving him good points with God. He was totally sure his self righteousness that he was pleasing to God...that even his persecution of Christians was done in God's name and God was just soooo happy with him. He was wrong. All his righteousness's were as filthy rags... if he thought he was A-OK that didn't matter., he was dead and wrong. He wasn't trying to BE sincere he already thought he was sincerely right. no struggle for him.

1 Cor.2:14 But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised..discerned

A pharisee can be ardent and willing to die for his belief but that makes no difference as far as the truth is concerned., his sincerity won't get him approved before God. Paul did not struggle with the Spirit in him and he was very happy to walk his religious walk. That is until Jesus met him on the road and blinded him.

This is important to see. Only a believer can give spiritual truth but an unsaved person can't. In his unsaved state, Paul can't give out the mind of Christ since He didn't have it nor did he struggle with it until after he got saved. Romans is a book about saved people to saved people. We don't need to know how an unsaved man feels since we have already been there. We need to know how to think as the new. We need to learn how to conform to the image of Christ. So am a bit confused why you think Paul was writing from an unsaved man's point of view when he wrote Romans being led by the HolySpirit.

With your belief Lynn, you are comfortable with Paul, the whole of his christian life being sold as a slave to sin. He could not do the good he wanted to do, but rather the evil he did not want to do, what he hated he did.

Only that is what hw clearly stated. If you are happy with that condition for Paul the christian I am content to leave it there.

I could never accept that, it flies in the face of Paul's message, but we are all different. However, if that was the state of Paul all of his christian life, you wouldn't expect anymore from a christian today I imagine

 

[james57]

Well..it is obvious that we are not articulating what we are seeing well enough...so if you are not willing to go look and see what is being said..we have no common basis in order to discuss the subject...that's no problem! We are blessed! We have an abundance of grace in Him!

You have plainly articulated you position. If your belief on this subject are in agreement with those videos obviously i would not wish to watch them

You were doing very well in this debate. But now, you are in reality preaching, be under grace and sin shall be your master. You obviously will deny it, but that is what you are now preaching according to the comments you have made concerning the person spoken of I rom7:14-25 and your insistence he is speaking of his christian life

 

[ladylynn]

With your belief Lynn, you are comfortable with Paul, the whole of his christian life being sold as a slave to sin. He could not do the good he wanted to do, but rather the evil he did not want to do, what he hated he did.

Only that is what hw clearly stated. If you are happy with that condition for Paul the christian I am content to leave it there.

I could never accept that, it flies in the face of Paul's message, but we are all different. However, if that was the state of Paul all of his christian life, you wouldn't expect anymore from a christian today I imagine

AAARRRRGGGGG how are you getting that from my posts James57???? Paul matured. He was not a slave to sin, far from it!!! He had victory in Christ and walked in that victory in Jesus. I do not believe Paul was in any way shape or form living a life being sold as a slave to sin..yikessss nooooo waaaayyyyyyy .... pleeeeeaaassssseee stop saying I do.
Either you are reading my posts wrong or I am not writing them right. Paul was a victor in Christ and an example to all of us.

 

[james57]

AAARRRRGGGGG how are you getting that from my posts James57???? Paul matured. He was not a slave to sin, far from it!!! He had victory in Christ and walked in that victory in Jesus. I do not believe Paul was in any way shape or form living a life being sold as a slave to sin..yikessss nooooo waaaayyyyyyy .... pleeeeeaaassssseee stop saying I do.
Either you are reading my posts wrong or I am not writing them right. Paul was a victor in Christ and an example to all of us.

Well grace 770 accepts in those verses sin reigned in Paul, and on that point I thoroughly agree with him
Is your view then Paul is only speaking in those verses of when he first became a christian, he was not in that condition the whole of his christian life?

Just seeking to understand your exact position on this

 

[Grace777x70]

There in lies the rub...I am not saying Paul is under grace and sin is his master...I am saying in romans 7;14-25..he is not interested in his inner man because he is only talking about the situation in his flesh/body...

It is just a "description of the situation that is in his flesh/body" without any reference to who he is in Christ.. ( the purpose of the description is to talk about the parasite "sin" that he discovered )

.I'm sorry James I cannot describe it in any other terms now....please if you are interested at all.... go and view the videos.....

If not..that's ok......everything is cool!

You have plainly articulated you position. If your belief on this subject are in agreement with those videos obviously i would not wish to watch them

You were doing very well in this debate. But now, you are in reality preaching, be under grace and sin shall be your master. You obviously will deny it, but that is what you are now preaching according to the comments you have made concerning the person spoken of I rom7:14-25 and your insistence he is speaking as a christian

 

[Grace777x70]

Please James..watch the videos..because it seems we are not getting across to you what we are saying...

Well grace 770 accepts in those verses sin reigned in Paul, and on that point I thoroughly agree with him
Is your view then Paul is only speaking in those verses of when he first became a christian, he was not in that condition the whole of his christian life?

Just seeking to understand your exact position on this

 

[james57]

There in lies the rub...I am not saying Paul is under grace and sin is his master...I am saying in romans 7;14-25..he is not interested in his inner man because he is only talking about the situation in his flesh/body...

It is just a "description of the situation that is in his flesh/body" without any reference to who he is in Christ.. ( the purpose of the description is to talk about the parasite "sin" that he discovered )
!

I really would advise you to spend much time contemplating your above statement. For what it states is Paul wasn't interested about how much sin he had in his flesh, all he was interested in was the new nature.
And I would be happy for anyone reading your comment to tell me if they agree with my assessment of it as I am sure they will. It is frankly a ludicrous statement.

In fact, I am not going to add anymore, no need

 

[james57]

Please James..watch the videos..because it seems we are not getting across to you what we are saying...

What I think I am now gathering from Lynn is Paul as a christian DID NOT remain in the state he speaks of in those verses. They only refer to his initial christian walk. She can correct ne if that is wrong
That of course is not your position I it

 

[Grace777x70]

On my Wordsearch Bible program Andrew has lot's of notes on Hebrew..it gets updated every few weeks with his new stuff...he does have thought provoking ideas...

opps , I thought the guy you posted with the message was Paul Washer. My mistake. sorry.
I do wish A.Wommack had the whole Bible in commentary. No commentary on Hebrews or other books that i wanted to see his thoughts on. He has some good points.

 

[ladylynn]

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Hebrews 12:24
to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.[/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"]Today, forensic science tells us that blood has a voice. DNA can be extracted from just one small drop of the murderer’s blood and the results used in court as evidence.
So blood in a sense can speak. And when it is the blood of Jesus, it “speaks better things” than that of Abel. Abel’s blood cried out, “Vengeance! Vengeance!” after his brother Cain murdered him. (Genesis 4:8–11) But Jesus’ blood cries out forgiveness for our sins, healing for our bodies, and peace and soundness for our minds. It cries out protection for our coming-ins and going-outs, good success for the works of our hands, the righteousness of Christ as our acceptance before God and much more!
In the Bible, Jesus’ blood speaking of “better things” is found in the context of the last days when things are being shaken, so that the things which cannot be shaken will remain. (Hebrews 12:27) God wants you to know that you will not be shaken when you put your faith in Jesus’ blood, which speaks better things for you. That is why God wants you to see Jesus’ blood shed for you in every area that causes your heart to tremble and your confidence to be shaken.
For example, if you are afraid of losing your job, speak the blood of Jesus over your job. His blood cries out, “Favor with his boss!” And in these days when you are shaken by fears that terrorism may strike anyone, anywhere, anytime, plead the blood of Jesus which cries out, “Protection and deliverance!” When fear rises in your heart as the doctor gives you his prognosis, plead the blood of Jesus over your body. His blood cries out, “Healing and wholeness!”
The eternal blood of Jesus, which speaks better things, will never lose its power. Beloved, see that you do not refuse Him who speaks. (Hebrews 12:25) See that you keep hearing the voice of grace, which speaks salvation, righteousness, protection, deliverance, provision and healing over your life!
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Destined To Reign 12/11

 

[PeterJens]

I'm sorry Peter...but I don't understand what you are trying to say.

What is sin or our struggle with sin?

All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts.
Eph 2:3

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21

Sin in its nature is a passion or desire without regard to the consequences. So all these deeds are hidden in darkness so the deeds and their consequences lay hidden

Jesus is light.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
John 3:19

I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
John 12:46

So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
Rom 13:12

For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
Eph 5:8

The power of sin is to ignore the consequence but follow the desire with no restraint.

The power of the Spirit is to see consequences and sow good things that bring good fruit.

 

[james57]

The power of sin is to ignore the consequence but follow the desire with no restraint.

.

The bible says the power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56