I am hearing some STRANGE stuff about scripture.
- Thread starter RedTent
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What a point!! My pastor uses the doctrinal position of our denomination to explain bible.
What about the idea that Paul said of the OT "that was only for the Hebrews".
Or, when we were given the New Covenant it wiped out the OT.
Or, in Hebrews it isn't talking of growing in Christ but of making all the old obsolete. Not the temple, not using the blood of Christ instead of animal sacrifice, but all of it.
What about the idea that Paul said of the OT "that was only for the Hebrews".
Or, when we were given the New Covenant it wiped out the OT.
Or, in Hebrews it isn't talking of growing in Christ but of making all the old obsolete. Not the temple, not using the blood of Christ instead of animal sacrifice, but all of it.
redtent....how about an OT challenge.
let's see who understands the OT more - you or me.
game?
what nonsense you post.
repeatedly you do this. as if the OT revealed MORE of God than the New.
you say things like - we ignore the Father in favor of the Son and bizarre stuff like that!!! LOL
just admit you wish you were jewish and be done with it
let's see who understands the OT more - you or me.
game?
what nonsense you post.
repeatedly you do this. as if the OT revealed MORE of God than the New.
you say things like - we ignore the Father in favor of the Son and bizarre stuff like that!!! LOL
just admit you wish you were jewish and be done with it
B
This is what I teach. Read the New Testament first, Matthew through Revelation in doing so your read the answers so that when you read the Old Testament you might better understand the question. We have the benefit of a completed Bible and when dealing with a person that is reading it for the first time that begins in Genesis, when they ask questions, I constantly have to take them to where they have not gone yet, that is, the New Testament.
Look at our Jewish brethern, all they read is what we call the Old Testament. The problem is it fizzles out with its last book. If I didn't know there was a New Testament I would be left with a feeling similar to that of watching a great movie with a bad ending. Leaving more questions than answers. The Bible is meant to be read and understood as a whole with every book giving a picture of Christ. Together they form a tapestry of incredible intricacy which none of us will ever fully understand which is why those that truly love God keep reading and reading and reading some more with follow ups in prayer and meditation.
In Christ,
Bishop SEH
Look at our Jewish brethern, all they read is what we call the Old Testament. The problem is it fizzles out with its last book. If I didn't know there was a New Testament I would be left with a feeling similar to that of watching a great movie with a bad ending. Leaving more questions than answers. The Bible is meant to be read and understood as a whole with every book giving a picture of Christ. Together they form a tapestry of incredible intricacy which none of us will ever fully understand which is why those that truly love God keep reading and reading and reading some more with follow ups in prayer and meditation.
In Christ,
Bishop SEH
It is true the NT, the time Christ finished and rounded out what He did for us, makes the story of God's plan for us complete. I experienced knowing the completed story thoroughly without any of the preliminary. It was when I learned the priniples of God that the NT was based on that I finally could get the answers.
I read in Hebrews that the new covenant made the old obsolete. So, I told myself, the OT should not be read as from God. That God, I thought, couldn't even be talked to except through Christ, God mostly judged me. I read that we are under grace, not law. That, without knowledge of God principles, I thought meant that God does not want us to listen to the ten commandments any longer. When we were told we were under the law of love now, I needed to understand the law better to know about it. It seemed true that we could just say and feel love and bang, we had the law without learning anything more about it. As far as actually learning from Jews!! Those people who denied Christ? How could God suggest such a thing.
It seems to me that although it is true we must understand how Christ completed, rounded out, made perfect God's plan for us, it takes an understanding of the Father and how creation works to understand the NT.
I read in Hebrews that the new covenant made the old obsolete. So, I told myself, the OT should not be read as from God. That God, I thought, couldn't even be talked to except through Christ, God mostly judged me. I read that we are under grace, not law. That, without knowledge of God principles, I thought meant that God does not want us to listen to the ten commandments any longer. When we were told we were under the law of love now, I needed to understand the law better to know about it. It seemed true that we could just say and feel love and bang, we had the law without learning anything more about it. As far as actually learning from Jews!! Those people who denied Christ? How could God suggest such a thing.
It seems to me that although it is true we must understand how Christ completed, rounded out, made perfect God's plan for us, it takes an understanding of the Father and how creation works to understand the NT.
B
As a new member of ChristianChat, I must say that it surprises me how often the debate over translations arises in the forums. Certainly, it is a well-established dictum of the Protestant tradition that scripture is the only reliable source of truth. What surprises me, however, is the less established but evidently equally strong dictum that a highly nuanced understanding of doctrine is necessary for faith, obedience, and salvation. Folks who ascribe to KJV-only views agree the vast majority of the time on the full range of doctrinal issues with folks who prefer to use anything but the KJV. I am willing to bet that this has something to do with the fact that the KJV and the NASB/ASV/other modern translations are over 99% in agreement. I fully understand how important 1% can be, and yet when it comes to actual doctrinal differences between KJV-only vs "Other" groups, the differences are matters of nuance rather than substance.
I have never encountered in scripture a passage that describes the importance of the right doctrine, right creed, right theology or anything like it. What I have encountered repeatedly are passages that provide clear statements about what it is to be a child of God and what God requires of His children. And, unfortunately, I see as many KJV-only folks who miss the forest for the trees as I do people who prefer other translations. Or, as Jesus would put it (KJV version) in Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Why don't we focus on stuff that is really important (understanding the larger points of scripture, obeying the obvious requirements of God) instead of focusing on debates over relative minutiae?
I have never encountered in scripture a passage that describes the importance of the right doctrine, right creed, right theology or anything like it. What I have encountered repeatedly are passages that provide clear statements about what it is to be a child of God and what God requires of His children. And, unfortunately, I see as many KJV-only folks who miss the forest for the trees as I do people who prefer other translations. Or, as Jesus would put it (KJV version) in Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Why don't we focus on stuff that is really important (understanding the larger points of scripture, obeying the obvious requirements of God) instead of focusing on debates over relative minutiae?
I think you hit the nail on the head. Rejecting the Torah in our hearts is like destroying the foundation of our faith. If we can't prove Jesus from the Old Testament, then we might as well throw away the New. I think it's very important to study the Old. For instance, for the longest time I rejected the notion that the Psalms prophesied anything about Jesus, because I couldn't find any evidence for it. In fact I almost rejected the notion that the Psalms were prophetic. But I understood that at least one prophet wrote some psalms (i.e. Asaph) and David was a prophet and a psalmist. Then I found this scripture:
1 Chronicles 25:1 David, together with the commanders of the army, set apart some of the sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun for the ministry of prophesying, accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals. Here is the list of the men who performed this service:
Here, some prophets are prophesying through song. So which psalms are prophetic and which aren't? Maybe many more of them are than we had previously thought.
1 Chronicles 25:1 David, together with the commanders of the army, set apart some of the sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun for the ministry of prophesying, accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals. Here is the list of the men who performed this service:
Here, some prophets are prophesying through song. So which psalms are prophetic and which aren't? Maybe many more of them are than we had previously thought.
W
The "Old testament scriptures are a real blessing to me. They do contain the whole story of the gospel and Gods purposes. Nothing left out. To rank them some how "lower " than NT is placing the NT out in never never land , with no foundation. I would give them almost higher importance. When ever the scripture speaks of inspired word it is speaking of the old testament ."the prophets and apostles being the foundation of our faith,Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone."I love all the scripture and God speaks to me through it. But I must say I find it a little suspicious This whole canonization thing ,with Constantine and the precursors to the roman church,but God uses and works all things to our good. I"m sure if Constantine called all the bishops to meet in order to establish which letters would "officially" be deemed Gods word, he probably called them under threat of losing their lives. Just like he killed those who would not convert to Christianity.
I didn't know that! I knew he felt the Jew's God was not the Christian God at all, so he became completely anti Jewish more and more. I knew he had a lot to do with establishing our holidays, and certainly finalized changing the Sabbath day, but not that Christians were included with his meddling, and even killed.
It is amazing that this man cleared the way for Christianity to happen in our world, yet at the same time the harm he has done is going on today, even. God must be using this for our good, someway. Perhaps, we wouldn't have accepted Christ and the feasts that God told us about at the same time. Constantine was key to stopping them and giving us Christmas and Easter, eggs and bunny rabbits, instead. There seems to be a movement afoot to accept Christ along with all God told us of his principles. We can know Christ and be saved, that is much more important than the instructions for feast days, scripture tells us so. But I wonder about us adding so much to our worship that isn't in scripture. The OT talks a lot about how that is against the principles of our God, and not how He wants us to think and do things. We say it is all aout the worship of God, and expresses God in our hearts. They said the same thing about it in the OT, and God didn't accept that. Could Christ have changed that about God by living and dying in our world in the flesh?
It is amazing that this man cleared the way for Christianity to happen in our world, yet at the same time the harm he has done is going on today, even. God must be using this for our good, someway. Perhaps, we wouldn't have accepted Christ and the feasts that God told us about at the same time. Constantine was key to stopping them and giving us Christmas and Easter, eggs and bunny rabbits, instead. There seems to be a movement afoot to accept Christ along with all God told us of his principles. We can know Christ and be saved, that is much more important than the instructions for feast days, scripture tells us so. But I wonder about us adding so much to our worship that isn't in scripture. The OT talks a lot about how that is against the principles of our God, and not how He wants us to think and do things. We say it is all aout the worship of God, and expresses God in our hearts. They said the same thing about it in the OT, and God didn't accept that. Could Christ have changed that about God by living and dying in our world in the flesh?
A
I believe that you have to study the OT to be able to understand the NT. They both fit together line a glove on a hand. The Ot speaks of the coming Christ. And the NT is the coming Christ.
Anybody who would tell you to throw the OT out and just study the NT shouldnt be teaching God's word. Run from that kind of teaching as fast as you can. lol
Anybody who would tell you to throw the OT out and just study the NT shouldnt be teaching God's word. Run from that kind of teaching as fast as you can. lol
Angela53510 you wrote:
I am finding it is the Talmud that is true Judaism, the commentary on the Torah. That is where I differ from Jews. I only believe God's inspired Word, not the commentaries of Jewish rabbis.
I just wanted to make a small correction. The talmud is not a commentary of the Torah. It is a commentary of what is called the mishnah, or pharisitical oral law that the sages claimed to be from Moses. But it is not commentary of the Torah of the Bible. But in agreeance, the talmud is false doctrine, even though not put into writing yet, this is one of the reasons Yeshua was rebuking the pharisees and sadducees for.
Matthew 15:8-9 "These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."
I am finding it is the Talmud that is true Judaism, the commentary on the Torah. That is where I differ from Jews. I only believe God's inspired Word, not the commentaries of Jewish rabbis.
I just wanted to make a small correction. The talmud is not a commentary of the Torah. It is a commentary of what is called the mishnah, or pharisitical oral law that the sages claimed to be from Moses. But it is not commentary of the Torah of the Bible. But in agreeance, the talmud is false doctrine, even though not put into writing yet, this is one of the reasons Yeshua was rebuking the pharisees and sadducees for.
Matthew 15:8-9 "These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."
I was told that the talmud was written mostly as instructions for how to physically carry out the instructions that God gave. For instance, God said don't work on the Sabbath, and sages wrote down how they though that instruction could be carried out. Christ objected to these instructions because they sometimes distorted what God was teaching. He also wanted them read as from men not God. Sometimes so many of these instructions led Hebrews to think that the physical doing was all that was required, when that wasn't at all God's purpose in the teaching.
I have heard that the modern church teaches how to obey with the heart, but without any of the doing we also go wrong.
I have heard that the modern church teaches how to obey with the heart, but without any of the doing we also go wrong.
No sir. As you may know, there are 2 talmuds. The Jerusalem talmud which is small, and the babylonian talmud which is over 70 volumes, which is most widely used through out the orthodox belief. But the mishnah being the sages of that time claiming to be oral law from Moses( which is false ) is man made 30,000 plus added man made laws which the talmud is commentary on all of it. For instance, YAH (GOD) has His description of what He expects from us in keeping His Sabbath. But the mishnah and talmud add a number of rediculous rules that no one can follow, I.E. can't turn on lights, can't push a button, and thousands more just as bad or worse. This is what Yeshua (Jesus) was rebuking the rabbis for. Man added laws and claiming them to be YAH's commandments. YAH teaches us in the Torah, Tanak(OT) and Brit Hadeshah(NT) that our works give Him praise, but we are saved by grace in Yeshua. We do the works because we are given free salvation.
Yes I agree, the church has the heart matter down, but doesn't want to lift a finger in the responsibility.
I just want to follow YAH His way, not my way. To be surrendered without stipulations.
Yes I agree, the church has the heart matter down, but doesn't want to lift a finger in the responsibility.
I just want to follow YAH His way, not my way. To be surrendered without stipulations.