I AM PUZZLED AS TO THE BIBLE BEING THE SOLE AUTHORITY OF GOD'S WORD

JohnRH · Apr 17, 2022

... keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. John 17:11 (KJV)
... that they also may be one in us ... John 17:21 (KJV)
... that they may be one, even as we are one ... John 17:22 (KJV)
All genuine Christians, without a single exception, are one. Not of one opinion, but one.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth ... John 16:13 (KJV)
All genuine Christians, without a single exception, are being guided into all truth. They haven't arrived, they're being guided.

Blik · Apr 17, 2022

Marilyn said:

If you put the denominations aside you will see the truth that the Holy Spirit has revealed. It is man that tried to put a wall around the truth however as we well know from history God`s truth cannot be contained in man`s denominations. I have been doing a blog on this very topic - `The Final Battle: becoming Overcomers.

The Whole Counsel of God.

Looking back over the last 2000 years we see the amazing work, the Lord Jesus, the Head of the Body has been doing amid the great battle. Satan and his demons have sought to overpower the believers with errors and false teachings. The battle has been fierce with many people having to die for their belief in Christ.

The Apostle Paul taught the whole counsel of God to the disciples; however those truths were challenged and seemingly done away with when a church system was made which sought power and control over the believer.

Yet the Holy Spirit has continually guided the believers over the centuries, - truths of,

Salvation, (Lutherians),
Believer`s baptism, (Baptists),
Holy living, (Methodists),
Infilling of the Holy Spirit, (Pentecostals) and
The five ministry gifts of Christ, (Apostolic).

The Eternal Purposes.

Still there is one last great truth which the Holy Spirit is bringing to the believers. This truth, by the Holy Spirit, will bring the believers to full maturity in Christ. This truth is the great revelation of the Eternal Purposes in Christ for three groups.

For the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the Nations.

Receiving the truth of the Eternal Purposes in Christ brings the Body full circle to the whole counsel of God that the Apostle Paul taught.

The Apostle Paul said - `I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27)

Thus with all the restored truths, (salvation, baptism, holy living, infilling of the Holy Spirit, the 5 ministries of Christ) we come to the final truth - the Eternal Purposes of Christ, to bring the whole Body of Christ to maturity in Him.

`Christ....gave Himself some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,

till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)

Unity in Christ does not require agreement on every interpretation of scripture, it requires love and peace. Ephesians 4:1-4 "As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called."

Magenta · Apr 17, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

Jesus only prayed for those who were given to Him, those who believe/will believe. He specifically said so in John 17.

We are also told in 1 Cor 11:19~ No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s
approval. In other words, divisions must happen so it can be known/shown who is truly of Him, and who is not.

John 17 paraphrase

ResidentAlien · Apr 17, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

I obviously mean a person can decide for themself with the help of the Holy Spirit, not what someone else tells them they have to believe. Without God's word, the only two options a person has are their own imagination or the imaginations of others.

The Lord said to let the wheat and tares grow together; at the harvest He will sort them (Matthew 13). It's not the fault of God's word that some aren't genuine.

The situation in this discussion board is quite different that what you'd expect in a good congregation with good oversight and I don't think it's a good idea to toss God's word under the bus because of things that go on here. Nor do I think opinions should be formed about the body of Christ based solely on a discussion board like this.

Marilyn · Apr 17, 2022

Blik said:

Hi Blik,

I agree that keeping the UNITY OF THE SPIRIT is by our attitude. However, the UNITY OF THE FAITH also by the Holy Spirit has to do with being guided into all truth of Christ, His character and His purposes. (John 16: 13)

`...till we call come to the UNITY OF THE FAITH and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man....` (Eph. 4: 11)

Jocund · Apr 17, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

A body also has many body parts. Just because an eye is different than an ear or a foot doesn't mean that they don't belong to the same body. Differences can be a good thing.

arthurfleminger said:

I have seen many people change their mind. Changes can be hard to see sometimes, and sometimes changes based even on a single meaningful comment can take years to see. Be patient, it's OK for things to take time.

Like growing up in a house of siblings, when you are close to one another, the differences seem enormous. You think that you are your respective siblings are complete opposites on many topics. It isn't until you have exposure to people that don't share your upbringing that you realize you and your siblings are less different than you and some outsiders. We can call this unrealized commonality "Christian sensibilities": they are often taken for granted and sometimes assumed to be shared by everyone when they aren't.

arthurfleminger said:

If one person says it is the truth that eating crickets is OK and another opposing person says it is the truth that eat crickets is bad, given Romans 14, are either of them wrong so long as each of them are speaking from faith? Is it not the case that each is right in their own respective callings to faith?

If we take this concept and apply it beyond food (as Jesus alluded to when speaking of the heart and stomach), is it not also the case that there are further relativisms based on faith? Yes, core truths remain the same, and yes, we can objectively attribute these differences in truth to specific callings to circumstance, but there are irrefutible cases where what is right for one person is not right for another. That which is done without faith is sin, and the law is written on the heart and mind.

An opposable thumb increases the fruitfulness of the works of the hand, it can likewise be appreciated that opposing forces in the body of Christ may be like that for a reason as well, with a purpose not entirely understood at the time by either thumb or index finger but fully understood and valued by the will in charge.

Jocund · Apr 17, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

Be very cautious about categorizing Messianics as a type of Christianity.

Moslems are technically Messianic and believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah being born from the virgin Mary (and they also believe that Jesus will come again), but they are not Christian.

Believing Jesus is Messiah does not by itself make one Christian. We must carefully inspect the beliefs of any group to see what they actually believe, even if they state that Jesus is Messiah.

We've had at least one Moslem user come here on the forums stating they are Messianic, and many people erroneously assumed he was declaring himself as a kind of Christian. He wasn't lying, but that's the problem with the category "Messianic", it does not necessarily mean Christian. The same principle applies to modern "Messianic Judaism". Are they more similar to Christianity or Islam? It isn't clear by the name and it isn't clear merely by the statement that "Jesus is Messiah".

JAPOV · Apr 17, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

I hope your still watching @arthurfleminger ;
I believe the answer to your question is obvious, but you have to take a broader perspective to see it...
What you're looking for is in the story of the tower of Babble, and the first three chapters of Revelation.
You should be able to see that, despite the numerous denominations, each one is still proof of the Spirit at work.
We are flawed, imperfect, we are not Gods... We are God's willful impetuous children, but we are undeservingly forgiven. Without Christ's forgiveness none of us would be saved.

Carry_Your_Name · Apr 17, 2022

Blik said:

There're primary, secondary and tertiary doctrines in Christianity. The essence is the nicene creed, any teaching that deviates from that is deception from the devil. Gen. 1-2:4, John 1:1-14 and 1 Cor. 15:1-11 are the essentials about the holy trinity and the gospel, anybody who self identifies as a Christian should at least remember and agree on these portions of the Scipture; then comes the secondary and tertiary doctrines like how important is work, how to interpret the prophecies, in what manner should church gather, how to deal with the government, etc. Those are debatable, but the two great commandments must be put first and foremost: Love God with all your heart, might and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Carry_Your_Name · Apr 17, 2022

Jocund said:

Yes, didn't Jesus warn that many false prophets will rise and deceive many IN HIS NAME? That's not limited to lunatics who claim themselves to be Jesus, but also false perceptions of Jesus. There're many instances of exorcism in the gospels where Jesus extracted unclean demonic spirits out of their hosts, all those spirits acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God, they all believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but those are still demonic spirits that glorify Satan instead of God.

brighthouse98 · Apr 17, 2022

Brother Auther, why so indeed! Truth as we well know sets us free, so anything spoken which rejects this is false. But as we all know most have grown up with a certain Church Doctrine that they almost must swear to it to become a member. Most Church's' are really just clubs! Sad to say that! Also, people do not always wish to hear the truth.

My girlfriend buys a dress she really likes, and then shows it off to me and asks me how do I look? The dress looked like it came from 10 years of being in the Salvation army!! LOL If I tell her the truth, she will get very upset!! So rather than lie, I say Do you really like it? She says I love it, then I say if you love it, and since I love you that is good enough for me. Now if she pushes me any further, I will have to spill the beans. She does! If you ask a person a question and they answer you, it may not be exactly the answer you were looking for, but for heaven's sake don't ask again!!! LOL Ever see the movie Fiddler on the roof? Tradition!! Many can get very upset when another rocks there boat! ( 1 John 2:27)Brother Auther, As an Elder of my Church, when I believe the Lord has told me something about scripture, before I ever preach on it, I check with other Elders! I can make mistakes still!! These of course are not all the reason's but they do cover some of them. Hope that helps brother!

Nehemiah6 · Apr 17, 2022

Jocund said:

Since they believe on Jesus as their Savior they can be included as a type of Christianity. The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) tells us what are their beliefs: "Jewish life is life in a concrete, historical community. Thus, Messianic Jewish groups must be fully part of the Jewish people, sharing its history and its covenantal responsibility [?] as a people chosen by God. At the same time, faith in Yeshua [Jesus] also has a crucial communal dimension. This faith unites the Messianic Jewish community and the Christian Church, which is the assembly of the faithful from the nations who are joined to Israel through the Messiah. Together the Messianic Jewish community and the Christian Church constitute the ekklesia, the one Body of Messiah, a community of Jews and Gentiles who in their ongoing distinction and mutual blessing anticipate the shalom of the world to come."

Gentile Christians (and even many Hebrew Christians from the past) would disagree that Messianic Jews have any "covenantal responsibilities". The New Testament makes it perfectly clear that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile under the New Covenant, since Abraham was not a Jew, and the blessings of Abraham come upon those who are justified by grace through faith (see Galatians).

So in a sense while they believe in Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Christ) they violate NT principles and teachings by segregating themselves from Gentile evangelical and fundamentalist Christians and also being Torah observant. And they speak of the Lord Jesus Christ as "Messiah", but Peter plainly told the Jews at Pentecost that God had made Jesus BOTH Lord and Christ (Messiah). So this is a serious matter (see Romans 10). Also Pastor John Hagee of San Antonio, Texas, has been promoting the idea that unsaved Jews do not need to repent and be converted, which adds more confusion to this issue of Messianics. He also preaches heresy such as “The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews.” ~ In Defense of Israel, 2011, (page 140)

Carry_Your_Name · Apr 18, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

It is necessary to segregate from New Age and woke cults, though, where the gospel is being subtly replaced by eastern mysticism and political activism.

Rainbowlost · Apr 18, 2022

Read John 1:1 the word was with God and the Word is God

KelbyofGod · Apr 18, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

I've only read the first page of replies so far but want to share this before getting distracted:

Everyone has the OPPORTUNITY to ask God for truth and about truth whether they have a bible or not (because some people don't have a bible but still need truth). The question is "Is the person willing to ask GOD what something REALLY means...and then wait until he answers (without giving up or making up an answer)?

And secondary questions come into play even if they are willing to learn that process, such as:

Is the person willing to accept an answer that goes against what they want or currently believe? (And that's not answered with a "yes" as often as you might think).
Is the person willing to face the resistance and persecution that comes from those who claim to know truth but are doing what is 'popular' rather than what is truly correct? (Because those unwilling to pray until God answers tend to group themselves together with those of similar belief so they can tell each other they are doing well.)

And don't jump to the conclusion that you yourself are completely willing to do that or claim that you've already done it... unless you're willing to state what it is God told you and stand up to people who hate you for it. (Perhaps even your spouse, parents and/or children or church. Because that's biblically what happens when people REALLY find truth.) The worldly "truth" of 'christian' religion is not often despised the way real truth is. Just FYI.

On the other hand, I hope you are willing to seek God (rather than trusting what you've been told so far BEFORE learning how to ask God until he answers) because it's worth the persecution for what God will reveal.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Carry_Your_Name · Apr 18, 2022

KelbyofGod said:

The question is the same one that Pilate asked - WHAT IS TRUTH? Everybody has their own truth, as it is said in the Scripture, "In those days there was no king in Israel, everyone did what was right in his own eyes. (Judge 21:25, Deut. 12:8). Two people could read, see or even experience the same thing and reach opposite conclusions, just take the twelve spies for example. Word of God is the red pill that opens out eyes to see the truth, without it we're spiritually blind following the blind in the matrix forever.

Jocund · Apr 18, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

The quote you provided clearly alludes to the concept that they do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Accepting Jesus as Messiah by itself does not make one Christian. This would make them categorically the same as Moslems (not Christian).

KelbyofGod · Apr 18, 2022

Carry_Your_Name said:

This isn't so much of a disagreement as it is a clarification...

Everyone may have their own viewpoint and their own beliefs about what they see, but I think it wrong to call all of those things "truths" (Some other word is needed).

In the example of the twelve spies, each came back with a report from their own evidence-based perspective... but God did NOT seem to value the conclusions equally... as all spies that presented a negative/dissuasive perspective died (of a plague, not at the hands of man) because they brought back an evil (faulty, false, untrustable, deceptive) report.

A.K.A what they said wasn't "truth" even though a lot of the components were verifiable details.

I'll go out on a proverbial limb by saying this: I'm a witness of the promise of the Holy Ghost. It is still given today just as it was in the book of Acts, and it still produces the same effects. It is still foreign to our thinking because it doesn't come from our thinking, it is the Spirit of God and it does Spiritual things. People who receive it are like spiritual babies (babes in Christ) who have all the tools but don't know how to use them. They make mistakes. They may prophecy falsely because they don't know how to obey the voice of God or how to test and reject the influences of the deceiver. They may speak in tongues at inappropriate times because they are just so happy to have it. Or some may yield to a spirit of 'superiority/pride' and act as if everyone should bow and throw rose petals at them because they haven't learned the manner of the Spirit of God which they have received. They may do some really embarrassing things as they begin to learn what having the Holy Ghost is all about. They may have torments come against them that other men don't have to face. But it's still worth it.

I also know that healings, miracles, answers, teachings, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, prophecies, etc are all still available, but people who want to operate in these in love are going to have to pay a price (so to speak) in giving up the things of the world as they seek God for what only he can give... And throughout the bible he only gives these to a PORTION of those who (at some points or other) claim to be his followers/believers/disciples because (again) few are willing to seek him until he answers. (But it's still worth it.)

I simply believe the time is short, so I'm beginning to be more bold about telling people what God wants to give them. Only two of those 12 spies spoke well of what God set before them. I'm not sure that ratio has gotten better.

Love in Jesus, ...and thanks for your reply as it wasn't as negative as what I expected.
Kelby

Nehemiah6 · Apr 18, 2022

Jocund said:

But they do believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again for their justification. Muslims believe that Isa is merely a prophet, but less than Muhammad.

Nehemiah6 · Apr 18, 2022

Carry_Your_Name said:

I don't believe Messianics belong to any of those groups. They are focused on their Jewish identity while believing on Yeshua.

I AM PUZZLED AS TO THE BIBLE BEING THE SOLE AUTHORITY OF GOD'S WORD

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