"I ask then why do people say Israel must go through the Tribulation?" Jeremiah 30.6. paraphrased.

[posthuman]

All those things easily explained by a first century coming. You are simply predisposed to see it otherwise. You have been taught a certain way and you are comfortable with that.

i don't think the two witnesses being killed and their bodies lying in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days while everyone gives each other gifts to celebrate the occasion of their murder, then being resurrected, is explained by a 1st century Antichrist.

Nor is John not having written Revelation until the mid 90's, or the entire church having a literal pre-millineal eschatology & waiting for Christ to return for the first thousand years of its history, in conjunction with a literal understanding of the eventual national salvation of Israel.

these allegorical views of the church being the object of the prophecies about Israel, and the book of the Revelation of Christ being a symbolic account of past events, came much later, as i understand them. but i'm still learning.

at any rate i think there are a lot of things not so 'easily explained'

 

[posthuman]

Verse 1 and verse 2 - up to the colon - is present-day to John - at the time of the vision. It is not referring to a 'future' event involving a 'future' temple.

Revelation was written after 70AD

so "present day" for John at the time, there was no physical temple to be measured.

 

[Cameron143]

i don't think the two witnesses being killed and their bodies lying in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days while everyone gives each other gifts to celebrate the occasion of their murder, then being resurrected, is explained by a 1st century Antichrist.

Nor is John not having written Revelation until the mid 90's, or the entire church having a literal pre-millineal eschatology & waiting for Christ to return for the first thousand years of its history, in conjunction with a literal understanding of the eventual national salvation of Israel.

these allegorical views of the church being the object of the prophecies about Israel, and the book of the Revelation of Christ being a symbolic account of past events, came much later, as i understand them. but i'm still learning.

at any rate i think there are a lot of things not so 'easily explained'

I would have to ask a bunch of questions to get at what you believe, but for me the most important place to start is when are the scriptures speaking about. Once you understand the time, the rest is easy.

It doesn't hurt to have an overview of history, an understanding of God and His ways, and how He has through history.

I don't usually engage on this topic because most people who discuss it have very set views on the subject.

There is a great book on the subject called Days of Vengeance. If you can get through the forward you will enjoy it. It can be downloaded online.

 

[Rondonmon]

Modern day Israel is not the Israel of scripture. Problem solved.

That is not what Ezekiel said when he quoted God. He said that God would bring those Dead Men's Bones back, and God stated it would be ......not may be, but WOULD BE the WHOLE House of Israel, and since God can't lie, we know that all 12 tribes are currently living in Israel, even though they don't understand which tribes the are from God does. An no tribes were ever "LOST" the Northern Tribes ha MEN/Families living in Jerusalem when the 10 wicked tribes wee toted off so men = seed and seed = TRIBES that Begat children. The all became Jews because they lived in Judea, just like Iranians who move to the USA after 50 years are Americans, those 12 tribes were toted off 500 plus years before Jesus came, so of course they were all "Judeans" by that time.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

That's the popular view at the moment. It's not what I believe.

It was, but sadly it's swinging back to replacement theology. Not sure where you think Israel fits but Romans 11 is pretty clear. God made a covenant with His chosen people and He will fulfill it. Not complicated.

 

[posthuman]

I would have to ask a bunch of questions to get at what you believe, but for me the most important place to start is when are the scriptures speaking about. Once you understand the time, the rest is easy.

It doesn't hurt to have an overview of history, an understanding of God and His ways, and how He has through history.

I don't usually engage on this topic because most people who discuss it have very set views on the subject.

There is a great book on the subject called Days of Vengeance. If you can get through the forward you will enjoy it. It can be downloaded online.

i usually don't talk about eschatology here, or anywhere else lol - because i know that it takes wisdom and study beyond what i have.

so you could say my views aren't quite set, but i do see a whole lot of pretty serious problems with preterism and replacement theology.

i will find the book and look into it. my pastor's been ill so i've been going through series of church history lately i found online, also a big hole in my knowledgebase, but i am just about through with the set i was currently into. the book sounds like a good place to go next =]

 

[Nehemiah6]

Verse 1 and verse 2 - up to the colon - is present-day to John - at the time of the vision. It is not referring to a 'future' event involving a 'future' temple.

Why would it be "present day" when the rest of the prophecy is for the future? And John was seeing a vision in 96 AD, but the second temple had already been destroyed in 70 AD. It is amazing how people love to twist everything around.

 

[Nehemiah6]

All those things easily explained by a first century coming. You are simply predisposed to see it otherwise. You have been taught a certain way and you are comfortable with that.

Get real. We are not making up stuff as we go along. Now if you do not like prophecy just stay out of it, but don't make such silly statements.

 

[Cameron143]

It was, but sadly it's swinging back to replacement theology. Not sure where you think Israel fits but Romans 11 is pretty clear. God made a covenant with His chosen people and He will fulfill it. Not complicated.

I agree that God will fulfill every promise. I don't believe the church replaces Israel but is engrafted in. So I guess I have a continuation theology.
I also don't believe God's eternal kingdom was ever about land. It was typified in an earthly kingdom. It's the same way I view salvation. The children of Israel were saved and delivered out of Egypt. But their physical salvation was a picture of spiritual salvation. In the same way the children of Israel physically took the promise land in physical battles. But I believe the physical battles are pictures of spiritual warfare and how we are to spread the kingdom of God by employing spiritual weapons.
There is neither Greek or Jew any longer. The wall of partition has been torn down. There is the one new man...the new creation.
So I'm not looking for a physical city.
I realize this may not be your understanding and I respect that. Christians don't always agree.

 

[posthuman]

when are the scriptures speaking about. Once you understand the time, the rest is easy.

well speaking of the temple in Revelation 11, that whole section is prefaced by John eating a scroll, then the angel guiding him through his visions saying this:

Revelation 10:11
"You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings."

so Revelation 11, immediately following, seems to me to definitely be about future events.
future meaning, after around 95AD - because i think the mountain of evidence is firmly against a 67-69AD date for the book.

 

[Cameron143]

Get real. We are not making up stuff as we go along. Now if you do not like prophecy just stay out of it, but don't make such silly statements.

I love prophesy. What I don't understand is how...come to pass shortly and at hand...can be misconstrued to mean 2000 years and running. I also don't understand how someone who pierced Jesus will be present at His return 2000 years later.

 

[Cameron143]

well speaking of the temple in Revelation 11, that whole section is prefaced by John eating a scroll, then the angel guiding him through his visions saying this:

Revelation 10:11
"You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings."

so Revelation 11, immediately following, seems to me to definitely be about future events.
future meaning, after around 95AD - because i think the mountain of evidence is firmly against a 67-69AD date for the book.

I would disagree because what happened to Israel in 70 AD was cataclysmic and no such events affected Israel in 95.

 

[Cameron143]

well speaking of the temple in Revelation 11, that whole section is prefaced by John eating a scroll, then the angel guiding him through his visions saying this:

Revelation 10:11
"You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings."

so Revelation 11, immediately following, seems to me to definitely be about future events.
future meaning, after around 95AD - because i think the mountain of evidence is firmly against a 67-69AD date for the book.

Do you believe the book of Revelation is chronologically ordered?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I love prophesy. What I don't understand is how...come to pass shortly and at hand...can be misconstrued to mean 2000 years and running. I also don't understand how someone who pierced Jesus will be present at His return 2000 years later.

"Come to pass shortly" should be seen through God's perspective. If a thousand years are as one day in His sight, two days have elapsed. Also certain events in Revelation did begin to come to pass in the first century. The events of the first five seals all began shortly after Revelation. See the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Cameron143]

"Come to pass shortly" should be seen through God's perspective. If a thousand years are as one day in His sight, two days have elapsed. Also certain events in Revelation did begin to come to pass in the first century. The events of the first five seals all began shortly after Revelation. See the Olivet Discourse.

You easily dismissed the simple and clear reading of scripture. Jesus is the one speaking so I figure I'm getting God's point of view.

There is no reason to impose a day as a thousand years. A day is never mentioned. God could have easily employed such language. He didn't. So right of the bat, you have changed the clear meaning of scripture.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I agree that God will fulfill every promise. I don't believe the church replaces Israel but is engrafted in. So I guess I have a continuation theology.
.

Yes, we are grafted in, I wouldn't disagree.

I also don't believe God's eternal kingdom was ever about land. It was typified in an earthly kingdom. It's the same way I view salvation. The children of Israel were saved and delivered out of Egypt. But their physical salvation was a picture of spiritual salvation. In the same way the children of Israel physically took the promise land in physical battles. But I believe the physical battles are pictures of spiritual warfare and how we are to spread the kingdom of God by employing spiritual weapons.
There is neither Greek or Jew any longer. The wall of partition has been torn down. There is the one new man...the new creation.
So I'm not looking for a physical city.
I realize this may not be your understanding and I respect that. Christians don't always agree.

Yes, I agree there is no Greek nor Jew any longer, but I do believe God made promises to the Jews that He will fulfill. One of those were land promises.

 

[GaryA]

in Matthew 24 Christ refers to a time of great trouble, more than has ever been or ever will be at any other time, i.e. "none like it"

is Jeremiah 30 speaking of a time completely unlike it?
Or exactly like it?

a time of great distress and persecution, which has never been before and never will again, centering around the Jewish people and featuring the LORD being with them to ultimately save them from being utterly destroyed?

Matthew 24:16
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

only the ones in Israel?

Matthew 24:20
And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

only the legalist Jewish roots Christians in Israel?

The timing of Matthew 24:15-20 / Mark 13:14-18 / Luke 21:20-23a is at the onset of the events of circa 70 A.D.

The 'those' who are 'in Judea' are Christians.

The very words "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" shows us very plainly that this is a 'local' event of that era and not a "world stage" event in our modern day.

Also - if anyone in Judaea today were to "flee into the mountains" - would they really be able to get away from a NWO police-state aggressor with modern-day technology? This suggested scenario does not fit - at all - what the passage is saying, and the details therein.

The 'great tribulation' of Matthew 24 is referring to a span of time from circa 70 A.D. until Armageddon.

The 'time of Jacob's trouble' of Jeremiah 30:7 and the 'time of trouble' of Daniel 12:1 are referring [specifically] to Armageddon - which is at the very end of the 'great tribulation' of Matthew 24.

Please note that, in Daniel 12:1, there is no 'nor ever shall be' comparison to the event timing - only a 'since' comparison exists there. While, in Matthew 24, both 'before' and 'after' comparisons exist. This is very significant!

The 'great tribulation' of Matthew 24 is a very long period of time whereas the other is actually fairly short - and, exists within the Matthew 24 period of time at the very end of it.

 

[GaryA]

Revelation was written after 70AD

so "present day" for John at the time, there was no physical temple to be measured.

Revelation was written before 70 A.D.

 

[GaryA]

Why would it be "present day" when the rest of the prophecy is for the future?

Because, that is the way it is "presented" in the 'grammar of the language'.

And John was seeing a vision in 96 AD, but the second temple had already been destroyed in 70 AD.

John's vision - and, the writing of Revelation - was before 70 A.D.

It is amazing how people love to twist everything around.

It is amazing how everything is 'solved' and falls into place when you put all of it in the proper order and at the right time...

 

[GaryA]

I love prophesy. What I don't understand is how...come to pass shortly and at hand...can be misconstrued to mean 2000 years and running. I also don't understand how someone who pierced Jesus will be present at His return 2000 years later.

I am quite sure I have explained these things before (many times on here in the past several years; however, the first more so than the second) - perhaps, you have not had the opportunity to read any of those posts...?