J
jaybird88
Guest
JUST DON'T USE CAPS ALL THE TIME LIKE THIS, OR YOU'LL GET YELLED AT FOR IT..
blue will you please calm down. WHY IS EVERYBODY YELLING?? lol ok no more joking around.
I want to understand the Catholic faith so....
- Thread starter Blain
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
blue will you please calm down. WHY IS EVERYBODY YELLING?? lol ok no more joking around.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
And this proves what?
Noah was the only one righteous before the flood
Abraham was prety much on his own
Daniel was prety much on his own.
Jesus had how many true followers?
You put to much emphasis on things which mean nothing.. Why not put more emphasis on things which have meaning.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Unless you can prove how the real presence in the eucharist will grant EVERYONE who partakes of it.
1. They will never hunger or thirst
2. They will live forever, and never die
3. They have in their possession eternal life.
4. They are given Jesus guarantee he will raise them on the last day (vs having gthem delievered to him at the great white throne)
Which are ALL facts jesus said EVERYONE who partakes of his flesh and blood in John 6 have, A food he called the food which endures forever, That does not (like physical food) die, causing the need to keep eating over and over and over, yet still not live forever..
don't bother explaining the real presence, because it is not from God
It does not matter how much Truth we show the Catholics because their Hearts are not with God. Its Mary and the Catholic Church that is their gods. All the Catholics are doing is trampling the Pearls of Truth from God.
Matthew 7:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
Matthew 13:45-46
[SUP]45 [/SUP] "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls,
[SUP]46 [/SUP] who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
The Pearls is the Kingdom of Heaven, the pigs are the Catholics. Every time we show the Catholics the Truth they trample them into the ground and call us evil.
Its so sad that so many Catholics are so willing to fight against God and His Truth just for their Pride as a Catholic.
What you Catholics are doing is only hurting yourselves. Its you who will regret what you have done, its you Catholics who will be tossed into the Lake of Fire, not me.
There is still time to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. There is still time for you to receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There is not much time left. Once the Anti-Christ appears on the scene you cannot receive Salvation anymore by Faith. You actually have to die first to receive Salvation. This period of Grace ends with the Anti-Christ appearing on the scene.
Matthew 7:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
Matthew 13:45-46
[SUP]45 [/SUP] "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls,
[SUP]46 [/SUP] who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
The Pearls is the Kingdom of Heaven, the pigs are the Catholics. Every time we show the Catholics the Truth they trample them into the ground and call us evil.
Its so sad that so many Catholics are so willing to fight against God and His Truth just for their Pride as a Catholic.
What you Catholics are doing is only hurting yourselves. Its you who will regret what you have done, its you Catholics who will be tossed into the Lake of Fire, not me.
There is still time to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. There is still time for you to receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There is not much time left. Once the Anti-Christ appears on the scene you cannot receive Salvation anymore by Faith. You actually have to die first to receive Salvation. This period of Grace ends with the Anti-Christ appearing on the scene.
W
WARRIORinCHRIST
Guest
Friends please stop bashing the Catholic Faith. We are all children of God. The Truth is, none of this fighting matters.
We need to give thanks for everything God has blessed us with, and show patience to our fellow man. Even if you raise a valid point, it will be missed because of the anamosity that has built up. I felt terrible when I got off line last night. Where did Jesus say we should scorn each other? We should love each other, and allow each individual to develop spiritually in Christ in their own way. Rejoice that Christ is in our lives, regardless of your interpritation of things.
I'm truly sorry for my behaviour last night. I hope you can all forgive me.
May God Bless you ALL abundantly!
As long as the parties continue to use opposing sources for their differences there can be no resolution. The Romanist cannot rely upon the bible because it does not support his position. The Protestant will not use Romanist sources because they are opposed to the bible.
There is no such thing as "Catholic Faith" there is only the faith of Jesus Christ and unbelief.
It matters because men are perishing everyday and entering eternity without the blood of Christ to atone for their sins.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
W
WARRIORinCHRIST
Guest
And we believe you are perishing and we are trying to help and enlighten you.
Where will it stop? It's painfully obvious the people in this chat are staunch followers of their Faith, and neither will yeild. Which means more animosity will be the only outcome.
Where will it stop? It's painfully obvious the people in this chat are staunch followers of their Faith, and neither will yeild. Which means more animosity will be the only outcome.
G
GaryA
Guest
Let me ask you, WARRIORinCHRIST -- what, exactly and precisely, makes a person a child of God? Are you saying that all humans are children of God? If not -- who, exactly and precisely, is a child of God? And, what makes them a child of God?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I asked a question. How is that bashing any church?
Always forgiven, I was thinking last night myself how you seemed different than most of your bretherin..
Its the Catholics who are perishing because they have rejected Jesus and His Truths in the Scriptures to follow and Worship Mary as their God.
Only one person was born without sin and He was Jesus. Only one person is our mediator between us and God and He is Jesus. Only God can hear all our prayers and only God can answer them.
To say Mary was born without sin is making Mary equal to God.
To say Mary is our mediator is making Mary equal to God.
To say Mary can hear and answer our prayers is making Mary equal to God.
Do you Catholics see how corrupted your beliefs are? How Mary is your God?
Its you WARRIORinCHRIST who is rejecting God, who is fighting against God and who will regret it after you die. Its only you who you are hurting, not me because I am a Child of God who will enter into Heaven!
Only one person was born without sin and He was Jesus. Only one person is our mediator between us and God and He is Jesus. Only God can hear all our prayers and only God can answer them.
To say Mary was born without sin is making Mary equal to God.
To say Mary is our mediator is making Mary equal to God.
To say Mary can hear and answer our prayers is making Mary equal to God.
Do you Catholics see how corrupted your beliefs are? How Mary is your God?
Its you WARRIORinCHRIST who is rejecting God, who is fighting against God and who will regret it after you die. Its only you who you are hurting, not me because I am a Child of God who will enter into Heaven!
We do not need enlightening to live by the unadulterated Word of God. Why criticize us for defending what we believe when you have come here to fight and defend your heretical church? Your attitude is double sided, speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Straighten up and fly right.
You didn't ask a question. You threw up an opinion on the Eucharist which has nothing to do with Catholic (and biblical) teaching on the Eucharist. You are not to blame for such ignorance. But you should at least do a little research from reliable sources and have an informed opinion on what Catholics believe, not what you think we believe. That's only fair, don't you think?
Eucharistic Index - The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Eucharist, Sacrifice of the Mass, & Liturgical Issues (Index Page for Dave Armstrong)
Catholics have not rejected Jesus and His Truths in the Scriptures, that is hate propaganda. Catholics do not worship Mary, we honor her because God honored her first, if you knew your Bible you would not be so insulting.
Not according to the reformers. But your faith system is an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of the reformers, so you can cherry pick from whoever (such as sola scriptura) and believe whatever you want. Catholics believe Scripture and what was "handed down".
Catholics believe that this verse Luke 1:28 is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary - itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated "highly favored" - which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language). I have done a great deal of exegesis and analysis of this verse, in dialogue with Evangelical Protestants, and so I shall draw from that thought and experience...
Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary's freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don't see that this is "fitting" or "appropriate" (as Catholics do).
The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:
"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow'" (Plummer).
(Robertson, II, 13)
Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, "grace"). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated "grace" 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as "full of grace" and that the literal meaning was "endued with grace" (Vincent, I, 259).
Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as "to endue with Divine favour or grace" (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to "divine favor, that is, God’s grace" (White, 201).
Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary's personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).
The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:
Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .
(Kittel, 1304-1305)
Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean "a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18" (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary's sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and "conqueror" of sin (emphases added in the following verses):
Romans 6:14: "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)
We are saved by grace, and grace alone:
Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10) Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:
1. Grace saves us.
2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.
Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It's a "zero-sum game": the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:
1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.
2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace. A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:
1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God's grace.
2. To be "full of" God's grace, then, is to be saved.
3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).
4. The Bible teaches that we need God's grace to live a holy life, free from sin.
5. To be "full of" God's grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.
6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.
7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.
8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.
The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.
But if you reject even an appeal to Protestant scholars when I make a point, it just proves you cannot be taught and are in denial of commonly held Protestant premises on the nature of grace.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
No I asked a question. And considering you have not even given me the courtesy of answering that question. Nothing else you say is worth anything, Now again, I ask, why did Jesu smake promises he never intended on keeping in John 6.
and ps. I know what the catholics teach, I have many friends who are catholic and I have studied what they believe and what the church teaches.
All you just did is prove how arrogant most Catholics are. and why end up being persecuted so much. They bring it on themselves.
You do not have to answer anything, and if we disagree with you, (the interpretation of being a hypocrite)
We only do it because we misunderstand you.
That is one of the lamest excuses as to why people do not agree with someone else I have ever heard.
Demonstrate what you believe from the bible and people will listen. Use Roman Catholic sources that lack any credibility outside of Rome and your argument will be far less than persuasive.
Show me that grace is received through the sacraments or disprove that grace is received by faith and faith that comes from hearing Gods word. Note hearing Gods word not the opinions of so called early church fathers selected by Rome as oracles of knowledge regarding God.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Where in the Scriptures epostle does God say being full of Grace means Mary was born without sin?
I will tell you that it is not in the Scriptures. God never said full of Grace means being sinless.
We all are sinners even Mary. We all were born into sin, even Mary.
Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
No one was righteous, no not even one. Which proves Mary was never righteous.
Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Last time i checked the dictionary the word all included Mary. Mary did sin and Mary was born with sin and Mary died a sinner.
Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Again ALL sinned and all includes Mary.
Jesus was born without sin and Jesus never sinned.
Hebrews 4:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
The ONLY Righteous and sinless person ever born was Jesus. Not Jesus and Mary. Just Jesus only.
This is why we cannot discuss the Scriptures with the Catholics. Without the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit the Scriptures are worthless to all the Catholics. Without the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit the Catholics cannot understand what God is saying.
How can one debate the Scriptures with those who reject the Scriptures? How can one bring the Truth from God to those who reject the Truths from God? Even if an Angle were to bring the Gospel of Salvation to the Catholics, they still would reject it.
Until the Catholics accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they will never accept anything that God says in the Scriptures as the Truth. They will spend the rest of their days here walking in darkness, and a darkness so great they will never receive Salvation either.
The Catholics are following the god of this World and rejecting the Truths from the one and only True God.
I will tell you that it is not in the Scriptures. God never said full of Grace means being sinless.
We all are sinners even Mary. We all were born into sin, even Mary.
Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
No one was righteous, no not even one. Which proves Mary was never righteous.
Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Last time i checked the dictionary the word all included Mary. Mary did sin and Mary was born with sin and Mary died a sinner.
Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Again ALL sinned and all includes Mary.
Jesus was born without sin and Jesus never sinned.
Hebrews 4:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
The ONLY Righteous and sinless person ever born was Jesus. Not Jesus and Mary. Just Jesus only.
This is why we cannot discuss the Scriptures with the Catholics. Without the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit the Scriptures are worthless to all the Catholics. Without the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit the Catholics cannot understand what God is saying.
How can one debate the Scriptures with those who reject the Scriptures? How can one bring the Truth from God to those who reject the Truths from God? Even if an Angle were to bring the Gospel of Salvation to the Catholics, they still would reject it.
Until the Catholics accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they will never accept anything that God says in the Scriptures as the Truth. They will spend the rest of their days here walking in darkness, and a darkness so great they will never receive Salvation either.
The Catholics are following the god of this World and rejecting the Truths from the one and only True God.
Your question is a straw man and will not be dignified with a response. You're going to be sorely shamed standing in the presence of an unprecedented amount of believers who gave of themselves with the utmost faith as seen and known by God, yet did not make it into your history books.
Once again you show that you put the Catholic church above Jesus. If it were not so, you'd answer the question placed before you and teach those who seek answers. No worries, I'll answer for you:
The bread and wine magically become the actual body and blood of Jesus because a priest, more importantly, a blasphemous sinner, prays over it. It looks like bread and wine, tastes like bread and wine, smells like bread and wine and has the texture of bread and wine, but I digress, its the actual body and blood of Jesus because the Catholic church says so.
Reality check: its bread and wine; a symbol of Jesus' body and blood, but fear not, when two or more are gathered in Jesus' Name, He is there among them. How bout them apples!
Last edited:
If Jesus doesn't keep his promises, I submit you don't understand His promises.
Head knowledge helps, but its not the only thing that draws all sorts of people the the Catholic faith. They walked away from Jesus in John 6:66 (hmm...where have I seen those numbers before?)
not because they didn't understand, but because they refused to believe.
Use the quote feature where I have been arrogant instead of making false accusations. Truthfully pointing out a lie or something that is hate speech and demonstrating WHY is not arrogance. I don't recall doing that with you. In fact, I was trying to be polite.
Most of the posts in here on Catholicism are not misunderstandings or disagreements, it's hate speech and it is a sin when done against any religion.
I used numerous scriptures in post 592 in my defense of the Immaculate Conception. The last line reads, "But if you reject even an appeal to Protestant scholars when I make a point, it just proves you cannot be taught and are in denial of commonly held Protestant premises on the nature of grace." So if you reject the scriptures I used, and reject several Protestant scholars on the meaning of grace, and reject the Protestant premises on the nature of grace, on what basis can you say I am in error?
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Sacramentalism
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Oh I understand them perfectly. It is your church who in their interpretations forced God to not keep his promises. not me.
yep. they walked away because they misunderstood. they wanted physical food. to fill their stomachs, Not spiritual food. which endured forever. which one who eats it will never die, live forever, has eternal life, will never hunger and thirst, and will be risen on the last day.
They left because they did not believe.
Just like the roman church.
Yep. So why do you not believe, God is able to keep everything he promised.. But your church says he may not.. Why is that?
The arrogance I spoke of is if we do not believe as you do. we do not understand you. That is what the jews did, And what others do. That's not what God wants his people to do. That is no argument at all. That is arrogance.
If I say the eucharist is not according to John 6. I am considered a hater. Even though I hate no one..
Not everyone hates you. You are taught to believe that I think it is part of your brainwashing your church does. because your the only church who says this.
I hope you actually believe this and are not simply citing the information.
You do not know what grace is. Grace is pity apart from merit.
Misnomer as grace is not given in measure but grace is totally sufficient to all who receive.
Except that we are saved from the penalty of sin not the presence of sin. Justified but not yet glorified with Christ. We remain in the body of flesh which is the body of sin having to mortify its deeds everyday.
So far so good.
Nope not even close.
Romans 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Of course your reasoning is faulty because you do not comprehend grace and forgiveness of sin.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
- Status