I would like some perspectives on Revelation.
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I believe it is both spiritual and physical. To understand Revelation I have to look to old testament prophecy to see the introduction then revelation to see the finish. To determine if it is something abstract or concrete, I look at the point being made. For example when God says I will make your sins whiter than snow. I know he is talking spiritual. When he says I will bring across the Jordan, naming a physical location or name a kingdom or nation. It is physical. So that is how I determine on much of prophecy read the chapters before and after because a portion of the time it is all the same context making the same point.
So I just look is God talking abstract or concrete here. Then interpret is as spiritual or physical.
So I just look is God talking abstract or concrete here. Then interpret is as spiritual or physical.
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Hope that this makes sense.
[Eph 3:1 KJV]
For this cause I Paul (an ethnic Hebrew of Hebrews), the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you (ethnic) Gentiles,
[Eph 3:6 KJV]
That the (ethnic) Gentiles should be fellowheirs (along with ethnic Israelites), and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
[Rom 9:6 KJV]
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
[Eph 3:1 KJV]
For this cause I Paul (an ethnic Hebrew of Hebrews), the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you (ethnic) Gentiles,
[Eph 3:6 KJV]
That the (ethnic) Gentiles should be fellowheirs (along with ethnic Israelites), and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
[Rom 9:6 KJV]
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
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I'm sure you are being quite accurate from a dispensationalist view point, but I prefer to believe Christ and the Bible's definitions of "church" and "Israel".
Your understandings of "Church and Israel" has been developed by the Rome Catholic Church, these past 500+ years (200 years, from JN Darby) to mislead the Christians who came out of the RCC and became Protestants, who the RCC regards as heretic and burned 10s of MILLIONS of us. The RCC, developed these interpretations of Church & Israel to confuse & sidetrack, Christ believers, down the road of apostasy, called "dispensationalism" They've done an excellent job, as the vast majority of professed Protestants are now apostate. As so many ecumenical churches like to say ... they've gone back to the "Mother Church" & that "Luther's protest is over".
Which is why I'm an Adventist, being the Remnant Church, of Rev 12 & 14, still pointing out the Anti-Christ and her "doctrines of devils" as ALL the past Protestant Reformers did. ~ ~ ~ "Here i stand, I can do no other." ~~ Martin Luther
1 Timothy 4, the Spirit warns that in the latter times, some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. As far back as Genesis 3, the serpent's questioning of God's Commandments to Eve is seen as an early example of the "doctrine of demons", as it leads people away from God's Truth, = Jesus.
Jesus, told Israel in Matthew 23, that " Behold, your house is left to you desolate" referring to the impending judgement due to it's rejection of God's messengers and ultimately, Jesus himself as the Messiah. Then in John 19, at Jesus trial, in front of Pilate, the Jewish high priest, said" We have no king, but Caesar".
Then in Acts 7, there is the long speech to the Sanhedrin, where Steven presents a comprehensive overview of Israel's history, emphasizing God's repeated acts of Grace and Israel's persistent rejection of God's messengers, including Jesus. This speech was God's final appeal for Israel to recognize and accept Jesus as the Messiah. Which Israel rejected with the killed of Steven.
I ask YOU ... Do you see any scriptural alluding to the Jews getting a "third change" AS A NATION or people, being "the chosen people" the church, continuing on as such? The Jews by rejecting the Messiah, became as Gentiles and ONLY become God's chosen people, "spiritual Israel" again, by accepting Christ Jesus as our Lord & Savior, believing EVERYTHING He says. ( Not just the "savior" parts, as dispensationalist like to believe, ONLY)
AI response follows; ( uninspired AI, gets it
"literal Israel was God’s chosen nation, tasked with representing His truth to the world. However, with Christ’s ministry and the new covenant He established, the promises to Israel were extended to spiritual Israel—those who accept Christ by faith, regardless of their ethnic background. This spiritual Israel is now the church of Christ, which is His body and continues the mission of God’s people to spread the gospel throughout the world."
The privileges and responsibilities once given to literal Israel in the Old Testament have been transferred to spiritual Israel—those who accept Christ and keep God’s commandments.
Romans 2:28–29 – “For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly... but he is a Jew which is one inwardly.”
Galatians 3:7 – “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”
The church—composed of both Jews and Gentiles who accept Jesus—is now spiritual Israel.
Galatians 6:16 – “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”
Revelation 14:12 – “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
1 Peter 2:9–10 – “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood... which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God.”
Old Testament Israel > Spiritual Israel (New Testament)
Physical descendants of Abraham > Believers in Christ (Rom. 9:6–8)
Defined by circumcision > Defined by heart transformation (Rom. 2:29)
Kept ceremonial law > Keep moral law through grace (Rev. 14:12)
God's nation > God's church—Jews and Gentiles in Christ
Your understandings of "Church and Israel" has been developed by the Rome Catholic Church, these past 500+ years (200 years, from JN Darby) to mislead the Christians who came out of the RCC and became Protestants, who the RCC regards as heretic and burned 10s of MILLIONS of us. The RCC, developed these interpretations of Church & Israel to confuse & sidetrack, Christ believers, down the road of apostasy, called "dispensationalism" They've done an excellent job, as the vast majority of professed Protestants are now apostate. As so many ecumenical churches like to say ... they've gone back to the "Mother Church" & that "Luther's protest is over".
Which is why I'm an Adventist, being the Remnant Church, of Rev 12 & 14, still pointing out the Anti-Christ and her "doctrines of devils" as ALL the past Protestant Reformers did. ~ ~ ~ "Here i stand, I can do no other." ~~ Martin Luther
1 Timothy 4, the Spirit warns that in the latter times, some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. As far back as Genesis 3, the serpent's questioning of God's Commandments to Eve is seen as an early example of the "doctrine of demons", as it leads people away from God's Truth, = Jesus.
Jesus, told Israel in Matthew 23, that " Behold, your house is left to you desolate" referring to the impending judgement due to it's rejection of God's messengers and ultimately, Jesus himself as the Messiah. Then in John 19, at Jesus trial, in front of Pilate, the Jewish high priest, said" We have no king, but Caesar".
Then in Acts 7, there is the long speech to the Sanhedrin, where Steven presents a comprehensive overview of Israel's history, emphasizing God's repeated acts of Grace and Israel's persistent rejection of God's messengers, including Jesus. This speech was God's final appeal for Israel to recognize and accept Jesus as the Messiah. Which Israel rejected with the killed of Steven.
I ask YOU ... Do you see any scriptural alluding to the Jews getting a "third change" AS A NATION or people, being "the chosen people" the church, continuing on as such? The Jews by rejecting the Messiah, became as Gentiles and ONLY become God's chosen people, "spiritual Israel" again, by accepting Christ Jesus as our Lord & Savior, believing EVERYTHING He says. ( Not just the "savior" parts, as dispensationalist like to believe, ONLY)
AI response follows; ( uninspired AI, gets it
"literal Israel was God’s chosen nation, tasked with representing His truth to the world. However, with Christ’s ministry and the new covenant He established, the promises to Israel were extended to spiritual Israel—those who accept Christ by faith, regardless of their ethnic background. This spiritual Israel is now the church of Christ, which is His body and continues the mission of God’s people to spread the gospel throughout the world."
The privileges and responsibilities once given to literal Israel in the Old Testament have been transferred to spiritual Israel—those who accept Christ and keep God’s commandments.
Romans 2:28–29 – “For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly... but he is a Jew which is one inwardly.”
Galatians 3:7 – “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”
The church—composed of both Jews and Gentiles who accept Jesus—is now spiritual Israel.
Galatians 6:16 – “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”
Revelation 14:12 – “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
1 Peter 2:9–10 – “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood... which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God.”
Old Testament Israel > Spiritual Israel (New Testament)
Physical descendants of Abraham > Believers in Christ (Rom. 9:6–8)
Defined by circumcision > Defined by heart transformation (Rom. 2:29)
Kept ceremonial law > Keep moral law through grace (Rev. 14:12)
God's nation > God's church—Jews and Gentiles in Christ
amen
“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
Zechariah 4:11-12, 14 KJV
“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
Zechariah 4:11-12, 14 KJV
