If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

[PaulThomson]

You said it. Super duper legalism.

Do we ever get a break? Can we ever truly rest? Is the burden ever going to lighten up? We can't even catch a break in the eternal state?


ALL of those things have already happened for every believer. Only those who have grown in His Grace and knowledge get to experience it in the here and now.

You have said it over and over. Humble ourselves, Seek and find our right pastor teacher.( my gift is NOT pastor/teacher) I need to find my right teacher.

We are meant to live in the here and now as conquerors, ambassadors in and for Christ......As His children in and through Him.

Not some weakling with doubt and a subjective list of do's and don'ts.

It took Methuselah, starting with pretty good genes, 969 years to die without access to the three of life. You think 800 years or so is not a gracious enough reprieve for a resurrected saint who misses the mark, giving them time to admit s/he has done wrong, and to rest in the shed blood of Christ for mercy, so that s/he can go and eat from the tree of life again and be regenerated perfectly and ready for another 800 years or more of life without fruit, if they sin again. You want God to disregard every rebellion, no matter what a resurrected saint might do, otherwise God is not kind enough for your liking?

The right pastor-teacher is Jesus through the Holy Spirit. Paul warned the Corinthians against preferring one human teacher over another. He said that was carnal.

1 Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

 

[PaulThomson]

1 Corinthians 15:53-55​

​

For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. ​

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, ​

then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”​

​

“Where, O death, is your victory?​

Where, O death, is your sting?”​

They did not put on immortality to begin with?


.

Having a physical body capable of never dying, if one keeps eating occasionally from a tree of life, is to become immortal. Having a physical body clothed upon with the heavenly body like those the saints are inhabiting in heaven until Christ's return, iand to have access to the tree of life in this body, is to receive a physical body that is able to never die.

You seem to have an obsessively narrow interpretation of what being immortal must entail. Unless one is immortal in exactly the way you envision immortality, you are unwilling to accept them as being truly immortal. That is the "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy.

 

[PaulThomson]

if your hypothetical infinitely long life was sinless, how would you be doing damage by your hypothetical sinlessness? why would God end it?

no sense.
no sense at all.
no historical sense whatsoever.

is this predictated on your nonsense insistence that God is completely ignorant as to whether we might sin or not?

you think death is a safety valve for God's supposed incompetence?

wow open theism is worse ideology than i had imagined. thanks for the enlightening

The only non-sinning one is God, because God is omnipotent and omniscient. We will not become omnipotent and omniscient at the resurrection, and God will not be completely overriding out mind and will so that we always desire and think like Him. So, we will always have the capacity to sin. Fortunately a broken and contrite spirit God will not reject and the cross is a perpetually efficacious atonement offering for sins for all time, so we will never have to remain unforgiven and obstructed from the tree of life, unless we choose to be.

 

[PaulThomson]

if your hypothetical infinitely long life was sinless, how would you be doing damage by your hypothetical sinlessness? why would God end it?

no sense.
no sense at all.
no historical sense whatsoever.

is this predictated on your nonsense insistence that God is completely ignorant as to whether we might sin or not?

you think death is a safety valve for God's supposed incompetence?

wow open theism is worse ideology than i had imagined. thanks for the enlightening

Which scripture says that there can or will be no sin possible in the coming ages. Do you know of any?

 

[sawdust]

You seem to be desperately trying to justify your own preferred theology, without engaging with and understand the actual words God had written for us to read. You just run off to find English ranslations that sound like they agree witb you.

It sounds like you hold to a gnostic platonist model of life after death. How does your model of the nature of the afterlife differ from the gnostics and platonists? They despise the physical, and their afterlife was one free of physicality. But God made us physical and very good. He is going to resurrect our physical bodies and mitigate all the damage our misuse of them causes to them.

The text you cite, Revelation 22:14, you would bother to consult what God actually said in Greek, says -

Blessed are those who are keeping on doing His commandments (present participle), so that authority over the tree of life may keep on being (present infinitive) [theirs], and so that they might enter (aorist) through the gates into the city.

It is saying exactly what I am saying.

I don't know Greek so I'm not going to argue about tenses but even based on what you have written here, it sounds like obedience to God's will in the present gives one the authority to partake of the Tree forever.

Either way you want to slice it, you have us under compulsion to eat in order to live. Freedom goes out the window. Being allowed to eat and being forced to eat are two different things. You appear to think that rebellion will be an ever present possibility even in the eternal state. You'd think God would know better than to save people who might reject Him in the future.

I don't despise the physical but all the elements (of Earth) are going to be burned up so if our resurrection bodies are made from the same elements which, is what you are suggesting, what then?

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

And despite the fact I don't know Greek or Hebrew, I do look up passages in the original languages and learn from those who do know the languages so they are disagreeing with you as much as I am.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Which scripture says that there can or will be no sin possible in the coming ages. Do you know of any?

The Great White Throne Judgement seems pretty final:

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

If you ask if those who are the Lamb's book of Life are ever capable of sin again, once He clothes us with the imperishable, I don't think it's possible for us.

In terms of ages to come - don't know. God hasn't told us everything about what to expect. It seems He just wants us to trust Him through each of the ages to come.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Which scripture says that there can or will be no sin possible in the coming ages. Do you know of any?

The Great White Throne Judgement seems pretty final:

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

If you ask if those who are the Lamb's book of Life are ever capable of sin again, once He clothes us with the imperishable, I don't think it's possible for us.

In terms of ages to come - don't know. God hasn't told us everything about what to expect. It seems He just wants us to trust Him through each of the ages to come.

So, nothing so far ,saying sin is not possible after the resurrection.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

PaulThomson said:
Which scripture says that there can or will be no sin possible in the coming ages. Do you know of any?

So, nothing so far ,saying sin is not possible after the resurrection.

When you get there, you can try to test God and sin I suppose, providing that you make it through that narrow gate to begin with.

 

[SaysWhat]

Having a physical body capable of never dying, if one keeps eating occasionally from a tree of life, is to become immortal. Having a physical body clothed upon with the heavenly body like those the saints are inhabiting in heaven until Christ's return, iand to have access to the tree of life in this body, is to receive a physical body that is able to never die.

You seem to have an obsessively narrow interpretation of what being immortal must entail. Unless one is immortal in exactly the way you envision immortality, you are unwilling to accept them as being truly immortal. That is the "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy.

Having a physical body capable of never dying, would take eating from two trees not one. The tree of life alone doesn't allow a physical person to be immortal.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

PaulThomson said:
Which scripture says that there can or will be no sin possible in the coming ages. Do you know of any?

So, nothing so far ,saying sin is not possible after the resurrection.

But if you want things spelled out for you, the Bible does say:

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

​

And Jesus doesn't sin, so if He doesn't, then we won't sin either.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

God is not bound by law. He can do all things. He can do anything he wants.

No, sorry, this is a false doctrine. God is bound by His Word. He is not like a capricious Greek god who storms around heaven waiting to zap someone. He will do what He said in His Word.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Exactly how many days must pass before a child can be condemned by God? One year, two years, five years, 10 years? Where in the Bible can I find the answer?

God knows the age of understanding for each person. Those who are unable to understand are saved, babies, those mentally not capable, who died before the age of understanding. Children in hell is Catholic belief.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The wages of sin is death from the time a baby is born. They can die as we see many do in America, with 64 million murdered in the womb. Sin is the reason for physical death; spiritual death is an eternal one. The Righteousness Of God doesn't condemn the innocent such as children. but they can still die.

No, not from the time a baby is born. My 1 year old nephew doesn't know right from wrong. He is learning. If I disciplined him for not being able to walk or talk I would rightly be an abuser. God is no different.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Rom 9:10-15
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

It's talking about nations, it's not talking about the individual people. You can't cast a child into hell that has no understanding of what they did wrong. My husband told me when he was just little his mother left him in the car for a few minutes while she ran to do an errand. In that amount of time he managed to get the car out of gear and it went backward into the ditch. And then the cops came, put him in handcuffs and he did time till he was about six.... riiiiiight. Use some common sense please. smh.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Because I believe Paul is saying no-one's personal sin was imputed to them at birth, having no law to know the difference (v.13). We inherited a corruption that is in the flesh from Adam because he sinned and that leads to death.

A baby dies, not because their sin is imputed to them, but because Adam's sin has corrupted them. Therefore all die in Adam even when their own sin is not counted against them.

Are you saying that baby then goes to hell?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Newborns come into this world under the sin of Adam just as we all have, and it will continue that way until the end. Say it isn't so, it's not fair all you want – but His word tells a different story.
The good news is that God has always had a covenant people. This is why there has always been a remnant of those that belong to Him.
His remnant come into this world holy (set aside) and blameless, not by nature but under the covenant of grace, and they will be kept that way!

The remnant are the Jews that will be saved. God did not choose a people to be saved and the other half to go to hell. It's not fair because it isn't right. YOU make the choice of heaven or hell. Babies are innocent, period. David said he could go to be with his son, do you think King David is in hell?!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Adam's sin is imputed for having simply a fallen nature at birth.
As they are born they could never stand before God in heaven.

Why not??

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Law = It's one thing to commit a sin without the law. No ramification.

It is another matter, being by nature what is opposed to God by DNA. = Fallen nature.

Without the Law, no man was punished for his sins.
Yet?
Without the Law, those who rejected the Lord were sent to Hell after they died.

No one goes to Hell for their sins. They go for their rejection of the drawing of God.

For the wages of sin is death. Rom.6

 

[PaulThomson]

But if you want things spelled out for you, the Bible does say:

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

​

And Jesus doesn't sin, so if He doesn't, then we won't sin either.

Jesus knows every detail of the past and present. Does that mean we will too? Jesus is supremely powerful to do whatever He wills. Does that mean we will be too? How do you decide which divine perfections we will have, and which divine perfections we will only be growing more competent in?

 

[PaulThomson]

Having a physical body capable of never dying, would take eating from two trees not one. The tree of life alone doesn't allow a physical person to be immortal.

Please enlighten me. which scripture says that?

I do know that scripture barred access to the tree of life lest man keep on putting forth their hand to it and keep on taking from it and keep on eating it and keep in living for an indeterminate duration. That's in Gen 3.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

And I do know that Rev 2 and 21 and 22 say that in the age to come resurrected saints will be granted access to the tree of life without which we could not live indeterminately according to Gen. 3:22.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It is a fairly simple logical step to conclude that eating from the tree of life in the age to come will have the same effect as it did in the beginning in the garden of Eden.

Some have developed or absorbed from others a complicated gnosis that, in order to hold fast to that gnosis, requires them to deny the very obvious connection of these four scriptural data points. Why they are so wedded to their scripture refuting theory, I don't understand..