If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

[PaulThomson]

How does that work in comparison to the change happening in a twinkling of an eye? That would have to be a very long "eye twink".

And if Jesus' body is not being upheld by the power of God, then by what mechanism is His body gloriously immortal?

Jesus is immortal because He is ever-existing, without beginning or end. Created spirits are ever-existing, They all have a beginning, and they can all have an end. However, they can be sustained by God forever, if God wills. Genesis and Revelation indicate that the mechanism God chooses to use to sustain saints' physical health and life into the future is the tree of life. Restriction from the tree of life brings physical death, and access to the tree of life gives healing and endless life.

 

[Mem]

God an be made out to be a liar, if someone translates His words in such a way as to make Him seem a liar.

Do a word search on "surely" and you will find plenty of examples where the outcome is predicted and was not immediately effected but was gradually brought to pass. Some have Been taught the doctrine of original sin, and are needing to post hoc rationalise their belief in original sin. To do so, they enlist this verse, claiming it says death will immediately come to pass, and therefore the death referred to cannot be not physical death, so must be spiritual death, separation from God. They then apply this "separation from God kind of death" to all Adam's descendants, even in the womb, and so prove to their own satisfaction, but not to mine, that original sin is a real thing.

Here are some texts that use the structure "infinitive absolute verb form + imperfective verb form pair" that are describing a gradual outcome, not an immediate outcome.

Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me ( עַשֵּׂר אֲעַשְּׂרֶנּוּ , infinitive absolute + imperfective piel) unto thee.

Gen 32:12 And thou saidst, I will surely do ( הֵיטֵב אֵיטִיב , infinitive absolute + imperfective hiphil) thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

Gen 50:24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit ( פָּקֹד יִפְקֹד , imperfective Qal + infinitive absolute.) you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

There are many others. You can do the word search yourself, if you are interested in the truth.

The usual occurrence happened when I submitted my post #553 and wanted to edit or at least submit a follow-up post asking about the usage of the word "shall." And I saw this to relate somewhat so I took it for an added opportunity to bring it back up.

Recently having noted that its usage, when it is otherwise so seldomly used, strikes me as being somewhat, idk, pretentious? or is precocious the word I'm in want of? I don't want to go forward without a more solid and proper understanding of it.

It is my understanding that when this word is used, it is stylistically meant to be an amalgamation of words 'should' and 'will' and I shall continue to do so until I'm sufficiently corrected. And I do suppose that the most effective correction might be an argument that, since the word is used in reference to God and what He 'shall' do, my understanding of the word implies that God 'should' or 'shouldn't do anything at all. However, we 'should' expect God to do such things that effect His purposes. Shall we?

 

[sawdust]

What indicates to you that Adam's sin corrupted Abel, Seth and Cain? If Adam and Eve needed to eat from the tree of Life to live forever, so were not inherently immortal, but they were very good, why would mortality be an indication of corruption?

I don't believe Adam and Eve needed the tree of life to avoid death, that's your position. As far as I am concerned, death was the result of sin and only sin. It was never commanded that they should eat from the ToL, ergo not a sin to not eat.

The indication we all live with a corruption in our body is Rom.7. There is a law that is not of God, one that is in opposition to God.

Romans 7:23
but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.

 

[sawdust]

Genesis and Revelation indicate that the mechanism God chooses to use to sustain saints' physical health and life into the future is the tree of life. Restriction from the tree of life brings physical death, and access to the tree of life gives healing and endless life.

I disagree. I think it is an assumption that the Tree of Life was needed to remain alive. I also don't know where Revelation talks of the need for the Tree of Life. There is Rev.22:2 where it speaks of the leaves for the healing of nations but I don't see anything explicit or implicit regarding needing the tree on an individual basis in order to remain alive. Why would we need the tree anyway seeing as we will be putting on immortality? There is Rev.2:7; 22:14 and 22:19 but there it is used as a reward for fidelity. Can a need be considered as a reward?

 

[sawdust]

What indicates to you that Adam's sin corrupted Abel, Seth and Cain? If Adam and Eve needed to eat from the tree of Life to live forever, so were not inherently immortal, but they were very good, why would mortality be an indication of corruption?

I should also note, I don't believe mortality is an indication of corruption. Mortality means having the capacity to die, it doesn't necessarily mean one must die. The wages of sin is death. Death only occurs because of sin not for any other reason. Not eating from the tree of life was not a sin, ergo death is not the result of abstinence.

Considering God knew Adam would sin and drag the rest of humanity into depravity, it was most probably a very good thing God made our bodies mortal. Who wants to live forever in a state of war within oneself (Romans 7).

 

[Webers.Home]

.
● Rom 5:12-14 . . Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,
and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all
sinned-- for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not
taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from
the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by
breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

That's a difficult passage, no doubt about it; but I'm pretty sure it's saying
that we all die not for something we ourselves did, rather, we have to die as
collateral damage for something that an ancient ancestor did.

That's very similar to Ex 34:6-7 which says:

"Then The Lord passed by in front of Moses and proclaimed: The Lord, The
Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in
loving-kindness and truth; who keeps loving-kindness for thousands, who
forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the
guilty unpunished: visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the
grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
_