If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

[TheDivineWatermark]

ITS simple brother

Of course it is simple.

Paul didn't thesalonians confused, think the rapture already happen.

You are swapping out the phrase "the Day of the Lord" and having it say "Rapture" instead, to have it [incorrectly] say,
"[purporting] that the Rapture IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative - G1764 Strong's Greek: 1764. ἐνίστημι (enistémi) -- to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present (biblehub.com) ]"...


...they were under NO SUCH DELUSION!!


Instead, the actual wording (as your original post was worded), "[purporting] that THE DAY OF THE LORD IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative - G1764]]"


"The Day of the Lord" is "an EARTHLY-located-TIME-PERIOD-[of much duration]-involving-JUDGMENTs-unfolding-upon-the-earth, followed-by-a-period-of-time-of-BLESSINGs" (NOT "a singular 24-hr day"), which STARTS [/ARRIVES] at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse (where "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" is EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of the trib... THAT is the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL TIME-PERIOD" to play out upon the earth, over TIME).



The "definition" of that phrase is NOT "Rapture". ["Rapture [IN THE AIR]"]

No one was "[purporting] that the RAPTURE *is present [perfect indicative - G1764]*" (your incorrect interp of v.2).

Than Paul say, that day Will not happen before the antichrist Being reveal.

The text of verse 3 is not saying that, it says (instead),

"that day [the DOTL from v.2!] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."

notice... ONE THING *FIRST* (not BOTH of those things FIRST), which distinguishes them.

Once "the man of sin" is REVEALED, the "DOTL" WILL BE PRESENT (to unfold upon the earth; JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME... "IN HIS TIME" [re: "the man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of THOSE SEVEN YEARS])

And we know antichrist reveal during second part of gt.

Nope. At "SEAL #1" (the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (DOTL's *ARRIVAL*), Matt24:4/Mk13:5 at the START of the trib, NOT its MIDDLE! (i.e. Dan9:27A[26B="whose COMING"2Th2:9a])])

So rapture after gt.

...if you MIS-define words, ignore grammar, disregard corresponding passages from Scripture (comparing Scripture with Scripture), and think that the Thessalonians were total buffoons who would be so easily "persuaded" to think "Rapture" had happened, when they could EASILY LOOK AROUND THEM to see the PLAIN-AS-DAY *EVIDENCE* (IF that were the claim--but it WAS NOT!!) They would have NO NEED for Paul to write them such a letter (which would have, in itself, taken MUCH TIME to get to them!)

What WAS "persuasive" (to what they were ACTUALLY being told by false-conveyors) was "that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT* [PERFECT indicative]": an EARTHLY time-period consisting of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER THE COURSE of some TIME.

THAT would be EASY (and would be PERFECTLY REASONABLE) for them to be [wrongly] persuaded to believe, BECAUSE of the VERY NEGATIVE THINGS they were presently and ONGOINGLY *experiencing* (per 2Th1:4).
The other makes no sense whatsoever. ZERO PEOPLE had DISAPPEARED!


The text does not SAY what you are having it to say.


[study all that the OT has to say about "the DOTL"--it is not a mere "singular 24-hr day" nor does it COMMENCE at the moment of Christ's "RETURN," but quite a bit EARLIER THAN THAT ]

 

[Jackson123]

Of course it is simple.



You are swapping out the phrase "the Day of the Lord" and having it say "Rapture" instead, to have it [incorrectly] say,
"[purporting] that the Rapture IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative - G1764 Strong's Greek: 1764. ἐνίστημι (enistémi) -- to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present (biblehub.com) ]"...


...they were under NO SUCH DELUSION!!


Instead, the actual wording (as your original post was worded), "[purporting] that THE DAY OF THE LORD IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative - G1764]]"


"The Day of the Lord" is "an EARTHLY-located-TIME-PERIOD-[of much duration]-involving-JUDGMENTs-unfolding-upon-the-earth, followed-by-a-period-of-time-of-BLESSINGs" (NOT "a singular 24-hr day"), which STARTS [/ARRIVES] at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse (where "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" is EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of the trib... THAT is the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL TIME-PERIOD" to play out upon the earth, over TIME).



The "definition" of that phrase is NOT "Rapture". ["Rapture [IN THE AIR]"]

No one was "[purporting] that the RAPTURE *is present [perfect indicative - G1764]*" (your incorrect interp of v.2).




The text of verse 3 is not saying that, it says (instead),

"that day [the DOTL from v.2!] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."

notice... ONE THING *FIRST* (not BOTH of those things FIRST), which distinguishes them.

Once "the man of sin" is REVEALED, the "DOTL" WILL BE PRESENT (to unfold upon the earth; JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME... "IN HIS TIME" [re: "the man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of THOSE SEVEN YEARS])



Nope. At "SEAL #1" (the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (DOTL's *ARRIVAL*), Matt24:4/Mk13:5 at the START of the trib, NOT its MIDDLE! (i.e. Dan9:27A[26B="whose COMING"2Th2:9a])])



...if you MIS-define words, ignore grammar, disregard corresponding passages from Scripture (comparing Scripture with Scripture), and think that the Thessalonians were total buffoons who would be so easily "persuaded" to think "Rapture" had happened, when they could EASILY LOOK AROUND THEM to see the PLAIN-AS-DAY *EVIDENCE* (IF that were the claim--but it WAS NOT!!) They would have NO NEED for Paul to write them such a letter (which would have, in itself, taken MUCH TIME to get to them!)

What WAS "persuasive" (to what they were ACTUALLY being told by false-conveyors) was "that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT* [PERFECT indicative]": an EARTHLY time-period consisting of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER THE COURSE of some TIME.

THAT would be EASY (and would be PERFECTLY REASONABLE) for them to be [wrongly] persuaded to believe, BECAUSE of the VERY NEGATIVE THINGS they were presently and ONGOINGLY *experiencing* (per 2Th1:4).
The other makes no sense whatsoever. ZERO PEOPLE had DISAPPEARED!


The text does not SAY what you are having it to say.


[study all that the OT has to say about "the DOTL"--it is not a mere "singular 24-hr day" nor does it COMMENCE at the moment of Christ's "RETURN," but quite a bit EARLIER THAN THAT ]

This is what I understand what you try to say.

Rapture is our gathering together with Him

That day or the coming of our Lord oN verse 1 is that day oN verse 3.
Am I correct?

And Paul say that day not happen before that antichrist Being reveal to you mean judgement happen after antichrist but rapture before.

That what I am not agree brother.

To me verse 1 is what Paul try to explain.
Verse 1 (rapture and judgement) Will happen after verse 3.

Thesalonian not think judgement had happen, any body know If judgement happen. Start Will fall to earth.
I believe Thesalonian worry that rapture already happen and they left behind, that is why Paul tell them when It happen in verse 3


2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

[v.2] "[asserting] that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT [perfect indicative - G1764 - Strong's Greek: 1764. ἐνίστημι (enistémi) -- to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present (biblehub.com) ]"



(not "asserting that THE RAPTURE has already come/happened").



So, what I'm saying is that you are not grasping the point of verse 2,

...but are IMPOSING *your idea* INTO this verse, to have it say what YOU THINK it is saying.



There is NOTHING about "RAPTURE" in verse 2... but INSTEAD, the TIME-PERIOD located ON THE EARTH consisting of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth--[the DOTL] look up that phrase in the OT, and also look at how Paul had ALREADY acknowledged in 1Th5:2-3 that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the MANNER *in which* the DOTL *ARRIVES*: LIKE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of a woman in labor [JUST LIKE JESUS had already spoken of when He told of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" in His Olivet Discourse--THAT is what they were being MISLED to believe *IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]*... It WASN'T, and Paul is telling "WHY"!




[additionally, the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" TIME-PERIOD)]" is not the END of the time-period, but its STARTING POINT--MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" FOLLOW ON from that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"... that's how "birth PANGS" work, and that's what Jesus DESCRIBES!!... and yes, the Thessalonians were indeed EXPERIENCING "persecutions and tribulations which ye ENDURE" 2Th1:4--Paul is bringing v.1's Subject TO BEAR on their wrong "thoughts" that "the DOTL *IS PRESENT*," which their VERY NEGATIVE *EXPERIENCES* would only SEEM to CONFIRM to them that it WAS INDEED SO, that it *IS PRESENT* and that they were IN IT and EXPERIENCING IT... (tho it was NOT and they WEREN'T!)]



Get verse 2 straight, and you will begin to see what Paul is actually conveying here.

 

[Jackson123]

[v.2] "[asserting] that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT [perfect indicative - G1764 - Strong's Greek: 1764. ἐνίστημι (enistémi) -- to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present (biblehub.com) ]"



(not "asserting that THE RAPTURE has already come/happened").



So, what I'm saying is that you are not grasping the point of verse 2,

...but are IMPOSING *your idea* INTO this verse, to have it say what YOU THINK it is saying.



There is NOTHING about "RAPTURE" in verse 2... but INSTEAD, the TIME-PERIOD located ON THE EARTH consisting of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth--[the DOTL] look up that phrase in the OT, and also look at how Paul had ALREADY acknowledged in 1Th5:2-3 that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the MANNER *in which* the DOTL *ARRIVES*: LIKE the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of a woman in labor [JUST LIKE JESUS had already spoken of when He told of "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" in His Olivet Discourse--THAT is what they were being MISLED to believe *IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]*... It WASN'T, and Paul is telling "WHY"!




[additionally, the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" TIME-PERIOD)]" is not the END of the time-period, but its STARTING POINT--MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" FOLLOW ON from that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"... that's how "birth PANGS" work, and that's what Jesus DESCRIBES!!... and yes, the Thessalonians were indeed EXPERIENCING "persecutions and tribulations which ye ENDURE" 2Th1:4--Paul is bringing v.1's Subject TO BEAR on their wrong "thoughts" that "the DOTL *IS PRESENT*," which their VERY NEGATIVE *EXPERIENCES* would only SEEM to CONFIRM to them that it WAS INDEED SO, that it *IS PRESENT* and that they were IN IT and EXPERIENCING IT... (tho it was NOT and they WEREN'T!)]



Get verse 2 straight, and you will begin to see what Paul is actually conveying here.

To me verse 1 is a topic wich Paul talking about

(Raprure and second coming)

In Verse 2 Paul say not to confuse about verse 1(rapture and second coming)

Because rapture and second coming Will not happen before antichrist Being reveal.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

To me verse 1 is a topic wich Paul talking about
(Raprure and second coming)

In Verse 2 Paul say not to confuse about verse 1(rapture and second coming)
Because rapture and second coming Will not happen before antichrist Being reveal.

No.

Paul is telling them (in v.2) not to be convinced by anyone trying to tell them "that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]..." (has already started and is unfolding in their present experience)...

...and they [ALREADY] "KNOW PERFECTLY" that "the DOTL *ARRIVES*" like A BIRTH PANG [SINGULAR; 1st Thess 5:2-3], which Jesus describes as the START of a TON MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL; Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]" that will unfold upon the earth (describing MUCHO NEGATIVE STUFFS!)


Paul is telling them "WHY" it is NOT SO ('don't believe them!!')...

...and THIS is where he [Paul] is BRINGING "RAPTURE" to their thoughts (v.1 and v.3b), which had been FAR FROM THEIR MINDS (in their "distraught mindsets" [v.2] of [wrongly] being persuaded by those telling them "that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]*" [v.2]... meaning, already arrived and unfolding upon the earth in their present experience).





[he then repeats the SEQUENCE 3x in this passage, which is the SAME SEQUENCE he wrote of in 1Th4 & 5, and which agrees with the SAME SEQUENCE we see in other passages of Scripture which touch on this Subject--This SEQUENCE being how the ONE THING (our Rapture event) "FITS" IN RELATION (time-wise) TO the OTHER THING (the EARTHLY *TIME-PERIOD* that ARRIVES like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of MANY MORE that will unfold upon the earth and be *VERY NEGATIVE*, just like Jesus said (about that)!!]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[the DOTL]... not merely "a singular 24-hr day"

 

[Jackson123]

No.

Paul is telling them (in v.2) not to be convinced by anyone trying to tell them "that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]..." (has already started and is unfolding in their present experience)...

...and they [ALREADY] "KNOW PERFECTLY" that "the DOTL *ARRIVES*" like A BIRTH PANG [SINGULAR; 1st Thess 5:2-3], which Jesus describes as the START of a TON MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL; Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]" that will unfold upon the earth (describing MUCHO NEGATIVE STUFFS!)


Paul is telling them "WHY" it is NOT SO ('don't believe them!!')...

...and THIS is where he [Paul] is BRINGING "RAPTURE" to their thoughts (v.1 and v.3b), which had been FAR FROM THEIR MINDS (in their "distraught mindsets" [v.2] of [wrongly] being persuaded by those telling them "that THE DAY OF THE LORD *IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]*" [v.2]... meaning, already arrived and unfolding upon the earth in their present experience).





[he then repeats the SEQUENCE 3x in this passage, which is the SAME SEQUENCE he wrote of in 1Th4 & 5, and which agrees with the SAME SEQUENCE we see in other passages of Scripture which touch on this Subject--This SEQUENCE being how the ONE THING (our Rapture event) "FITS" IN RELATION (time-wise) TO the OTHER THING (the EARTHLY *TIME-PERIOD* that ARRIVES like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of MANY MORE that will unfold upon the earth and be *VERY NEGATIVE*, just like Jesus said (about that)!!]

Why Paul say verse 1.?
What is the correlation between verse 1 and verse 2-4?

1.Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Jackson123]

1.Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
O
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In simple english

1.About rapture and second coming

2. Don't confuse, don't think that day is in the coner.

3 and 4, that day Will not come before gt

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1.Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In simple english

1.About rapture and second coming

Verse 1 is SOLELY about: "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event

2. Don't confuse, don't think that day is in the coner.

Verse 2 is SOLELY about: "don't let anyone convince you that the EARTHLY TIME-PERIOD of VERY NEGATIVE THINGS (which time period ARRIVES with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that Jesus spoke of and DESCRIBED in Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11) *IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]*" (i.e. the TRIBULATION PERIOD)

3 and 4, that day Will not come before gt

Verse 3a "that day [FROM VERSE 2--the EARTHLY time-period of VERY NEGATIVE THINGS]
will NOT be present, if not shall have come
(3b) THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [with definite article ('THE')--ONE THING must take place *FIRST*]...
and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."





--"the DOTL [TIME-PERIOD]" is kicked off (ARRIVES / STARTS OFF) like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of a woman in labor (Jesus said this is just the BEGINNING of that VERY NEGATIVE STUFF that will start to unfold upon the earth OVER some TIME)

--"a falling away" is not in the text (the Greeks had a word for "to fall": "pipto"... and this word is not in the text here in v.3)

--the actual word in v.3 is "apo stasia / apo stasis" (see below) - "a standing away from [away-from a previous STANDING]" i.e. "a DEPARTURE"... but with the definite article, "THE DEPARTURE" (the first SEVEN English translations had it as "the departure/the departing [noun]"... and was also used, in that era, of "the departing of a boat from a dock" and "the departing of a fever" (i.e. SPATIAL/GEOGRAPHICAL departure)... Even where it is used in Acts 21:21, it is saying there "a DEPARTURE from Moses" ("a standing away from"), but the words ADDED saying "FROM MOSES" must be ADDED in order to tell "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is MEANT (in that context) BECAUSE it is not inherent in the basic word itself, which simply MEANS "DEPARTURE" ('a STANDING away from [away from (G575 apo) a previous STANDING (G4714 -stasis/stasin--see this word here: Hebrews 9:8 Interlinear: the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy places, the first tabernacle having yet a standing; (biblehub.com) ... but note that in EIGHT of its NINE OCCURRENCES, this word carries a VERY NEGATIVE MEANING... not so in this ONE VERSE Heb9:8-9a, where v.9a says (of that v.8 "STANDING [stasis/stasin]"), "which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME" We should PAY ATTENTION to that, wouldn't you say??)]




G4714 - STASIS / stasin - "A STANDING"

G646 - APO STASIS / APO STASIA - "A STANDING AWAY FROM [a previous STANDING]" or "DEPARTURE" ("THE DEPARTURE" in this 2Th2 text... referring to THE ONE Paul had already JUST REFERRED to in VERSE 1!! ["our RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]"!!])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Very simply put (in modern parlance):

"the tribulation [kick-off] can't be in play till we're OUTTA HERE *FIRST*[!!!]..."








[ONE THING must happen *FIRST*... "THE DEPARTURE [IN THE AIR] *FIRST*"... before the EARTHLY DOTL time-period can unfold upon the earth with its "man of sin" and ALL he is slated to DO...]

 

[BenjaminN]

 

[Jackson123]

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Verse 1 is SOLELY about: "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event

It state about rapture and second coming. See the word and in verse 1.

You may believe second coming taking place in rapture

Verse 2 is SOLELY about: "don't let anyone convince you that the EARTHLY TIME-PERIOD of VERY NEGATIVE THINGS (which time period ARRIVES with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that Jesus spoke of and DESCRIBED in Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11) *IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]*" (i.e. the TRIBULATION PERIOD)

To me verse 2 is talking about verse 1.

Originally This letter was without verse, just like If we wrote a letter to a friend.


In my simple word

Brother and sister in thesalonians, I hear some of you confuse about the rapture and second coming.
Don't worry, rapture and second coming Will not happen before antichrist Being reveal.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

It state about rapture and second coming. See the word and in verse 1.

[2Th2:1] "coming [/parousia]" is used elsewhere in the context of both events [each... distinct];

...however, in this verse [2:1], it is speaking of the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"

...oftentimes (when Paul speaks of THIS ^ ), he uses also the word "OUR" along with it (speaking of the event which pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints, none of whom were promised "RAPTURE"), and he pretty much uses this word ["our"] in both phrases of verse 1 (verse 1 is SOLELY speaking of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event)

You may believe second coming taking place in rapture

To me verse 2 is talking about verse 1.

[Paul is basically saying] "don't freak out by ppl telling you THE DOTL [earthly TIME-PERIOD] *IS PRESENT / HERE / ALREADY ARRIVED* (i.e. that you are IN IT and EXPERIENCING IT).

It is NOT.

And then he tells WHY it is NOT SO.

Originally This letter was without verse, just like If we wrote a letter to a friend.

Of course.

But what you are trying to suggest is that TWO distinct ITEMS cannot be spoken of IN ONE SENTENCE (as to how the ONE ITEM "fits" IN RELATION TO the OTHER ITEM)... but this is exactly what Paul is doing.

In my simple word

Brother and sister in thesalonians, I hear some of you confuse about the rapture and second coming.

No, verse 2 informs us that the ONLY thing making them be "DISTRAUGHT IN MIND" is [someone telling them], "THE DOTL [earthly TIME-PERIOD of VERY NEGATIVE THINGS slated to unfold upon the earth] *IS PRESENT* " !!!

The text does not inform us that "RAPTURE" was on their minds nor on the lips (or letters) of the false-conveyors who were "[purporting] that THE DOTL *IS PRESENT*" (and NOTHING ELSE BESIDES THAT!)

Don't worry, rapture and second coming Will not happen before antichrist Being reveal.

What you are having the text state (which it does NOT state) is that "the man of sin [must be] revealed *FIRST*"... but the text DOES NOT STATE such a thing. Only ONE THING is said to happen *FIRST* and it is NOT [saying] "the man of sin be revealed *FIRST*" (in this context/SENTENCE). NO!




["... THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*..." is how it reads... now, do not CONFLATE these, as you are doing ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This guy gets it pert-near right (I just wish he'd say "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" rather than what he says: "is at hand"... Other than that, I think he explains this fairly well... perhaps you will grasp it by HIS EXPLANATION, since you aren't seeming to grasp mine ):

"DEPARTURE" OR "APOSTASY" ? | 2 THESSALONIANS 2:3 - YouTube [approx 23-min vid]

 

[Jackson123]

oftentimes (when Paul speaks of THIS ^ ), he uses also the word "OUR" along with it (speaking of the event which pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints, none of whom were promised "RAPTURE"), and he pretty much uses this word ["our"] in both phrases of verse 1 (verse 1 is SOLELY speaking of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event)

p

So you believe verse 1 was talking about thesalonian and Paul rapture ?

And they rapture happen after antichrist Being reveal?

I don't think so, I believe this letter aplicable for all Christian.

For Example, his letter to chorinthian is aplicable for us.

But what you are trying to suggest is that TWO distinct ITEMS cannot be spoken of IN ONE SENTENCE (as to how the ONE ITEM "fits" IN RELATION TO the OTHER ITEM)... but this is exactly what Paul is doing.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

p

So you believe verse 1 was talking about thesalonian and Paul rapture ?

V.1's SUBJECT - "RAPTURE" event (ONLY)

And they rapture happen after antichrist Being reveal?

NO!

The TEXT does NOT SAY that.

That is the IDEA *you* are IMPOSING UPON the text.

I don't think so, I believe this letter aplicable for all Christian.

"RAPTURE" [event] pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]")...

That's Paul, that's US, that's the Thessalonians, that's the Corinthians... (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]").

It happens *FIRST* before "the DOTL [TIME-PERIOD]" ARRIVES to unfold upon the earth with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME (7-yr trib)

For Example, his letter to chorinthian is aplicable for us.

I'm not suggesting otherwise.

 

[Jackson123]

But what you are trying to suggest is that TWO distinct ITEMS cannot be spoken of IN ONE SENTENCE (as to how the ONE ITEM "fits" IN RELATION TO the OTHER ITEM)... but this is exactly what Paul is doing.

2 different item may put into one sentence, but in this context I believe verse 2 -4 explain verse 1,

Why?

Verse 1 is topic that Paul try to address. It need more explanation.

For Example:

1.Let talk why a car hard to start when off over night.

2.Dont confuse.
3. It may Dirty fuel filter, or Dirty fuel injector.

1 is the topic, 2 and3 explain 1.

It is odd If
1. Let's talk, why car hard to start

2. Monkey Eat banana.

It is odd because verse 1 talk about why a car hard to start, and not address that topic than oN verse 2 talking something else.

That is why oN 2 thesalonians 2 I believe first one is the topic, 2 -4 is the explanation.

In our daily live when we write an article we decide the topic, for Example

The second coming

In the article we expect the writer wrote about second coming, not about how to repair the car.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[...] 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. [...]

[quoting from old post]

"Translation History

"The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?

"Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.[9] It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.”[10] The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy. This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism.

"It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.[11] J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star.[13] [...]"

--Dr Thomas Ice, "The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3", https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]

 

[Jackson123]

V.1's SUBJECT - "RAPTURE" event (ONLY)



NO!

The TEXT does NOT SAY that.

That is the IDEA *you* are IMPOSING UPON the text.



"RAPTURE" [event] pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]")...

That's Paul, that's US, that's the Thessalonians, that's the Corinthians... (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]").

It happens *FIRST* before "the DOTL [TIME-PERIOD]" ARRIVES to unfold upon the earth with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of SOME TIME (7-yr trib)



I'm not suggesting otherwise.

So you believe 2 thesalonian 2 verse 1 is about rapture, am I correct?

What Paul want us to know about rapture?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 different item may put into one sentence, but in this context I believe verse 2 -4 explain verse 1,

Why?

Verse 1 is topic that Paul try to address. It need more explanation.

Right. He is BRINGING the SUBJECT of V.1 TO BEAR on "the problem" (because IT was NOT "on the DISTRAUGHT MINDS" of the recipients of this LETTER). IOW, "that THE DOTL *IS PRESENT* (HERE, and they were IN IT AND EXPERIENCING IT) was what WAS "on their DISTRAUGHT MINDS," hence the NEED for Paul to ADDRESS THAT PROBLEM (saying, DON'T BELIEVE *THEM* [v.2], believe WHAT *WE TAUGHT YOU* instead! [v.15!])