IF there was a Rapture at the start off a 7 year tribulation period, then

[Absolutely]

Early Church Fathers on the Pre-Trib Rapture

https://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

https://www.raptureready.com/2015/08/30/ancient-church-fathers-believed-matt-ward/

Seems to be a consensus similar to what the Pre-Trib Rapture folks believe today.

You are agreeing with men that never saw Israel re established.
So for you to just assume what they did is a little silly.
Postribs big smoking gun is yet another false assumption.

If those dead men could speak you would hear a recant.
Today we know more.

 

[cv5]

Dude the Greek says EXACTLY the same thing the KJV and the NIV said. You have absolutely no clue what "He led captivity captive" means and that's why I posted the verse from the NIV.... and you STILL don't understand it.

Captivity captive means -
CSB
For it says: When he ascended on high, he took the captives captive; he gave gifts to people.

ESV
Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

NASB
Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”

NIV
This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

KJV
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

The captivity IS THE JEWS! Taking them captive MEANS he took them with him. Geez, how much simpler can this be!

There is no way you can extract resurrection doctrine from that verse. Pure fabrication and speculation. Furthermore, taken in context in Eph and Psalms, there is not a hint of Saints or resurrection there in the least.

 

[cv5]

You are agreeing with men that never saw Israel re established.
So for you to just assume what they did is a little silly.
Postribs big smoking gun is yet another false assumption.

If those dead men could speak you would hear a recant.
Today we know more.

You assume I agree with everything written there? No, it is there for reference only.

 

[cv5]

You are agreeing with men that never saw Israel re established.
So for you to just assume what they did is a little silly.
Postribs big smoking gun is yet another false assumption.

If those dead men could speak you would hear a recant.
Today we know more.

You are agreeing with men that never saw Israel re established.

And don't put words in my mouth. A very nasty habit on this board.

 

[KJV1611]

There is no way you can extract resurrection doctrine from that verse. Pure fabrication and speculation. Furthermore, taken in context in Eph and Psalms, there is not a hint of Saints or resurrection there in the least.

Well them who do you say Jesus took with him when he ascended?

 

[cv5]

Well them who do you say Jesus took with him when he ascended?

Nobody knows who exactly. Could be a combination of OT saints and believers in Jesus before His death.

But imposing on the term "took captivity captive" some kind of doctrine of Saints or resurrection is ridiculous. And Paul is not even hinting at that doctrine in Eph 4.

 

[KJV1611]

Nobody knows who exactly. Could be a combination of OT saints and believers in Jesus before His death.

But imposing on the term "took captivity captive" some kind of doctrine of Saints or resurrection is ridiculous. And Paul is not even hinting at that doctrine in Eph 4.

We know exactly who he took with him, because the verse says he took “the captivity”.

Don’t you know who the captivity is? They’re talked about all over the Old Testament.... it’s the Jews of the Old Testament.

 

[cv5]

We know exactly who he took with him, because the verse says he took “the captivity”.

Don’t you know who the captivity is? They’re talked about all over the Old Testament.... it’s the Jews of the Old Testament.

LOL. That is a stretch, but the fact is, there is nothing in the context of Eph or Psalms to infer a resurrection. It merely indicates total victory first by David then the Greater David. The captives could mean the entire race of men as far as that goes.

 

[KJV1611]

LOL. That is a stretch, but the fact is, there is nothing in the context of Eph or Psalms to infer a resurrection. It merely indicates total victory first by David then the Greater David. The captives could mean the entire race of men as far as that goes.

If you make up a definition for the captivity then yes it could mean anything you want it to mean but if you use the biblical definition then it can only be one thing.

 

[cv5]

If you make up a definition for the captivity then yes it could mean anything you want it to mean but if you use the biblical definition then it can only be one thing.

Nope. You are mistaken. The context is about grace and gifts. Zero mention of Israel, resurrection, Saints....nothing.

 

[KJV1611]

Nope. You are mistaken. The context is about grace and gifts. Zero mention of Israel, resurrection, Saints....nothing.

You know when you and I started this conversation you were telling me that nobody ascended with Christ and now you’ve changed your view and now all of a sudden you’ve become an expert on who they are not lol.

 

[cv5]

You know when you and I started this conversation you were telling me that nobody ascended with Christ and now you’ve changed your view and now all of a sudden you’ve become an expert on who they are not lol.

you were telling me that nobody ascended with Christ

Not true. I never said nor do I believe that "nobody" ascended with Christ Jesus. There was a contingent, uncategorized, of unknown number. My take on it was that it was the Firstfruits along with Jesus Himself.

 

[KJV1611]

you were telling me that nobody ascended with Christ

Not true. I never said nor do I believe that "nobody" ascended with Christ Jesus. There was a contingent, uncategorized, of unknown number. My take on it was that it was the Firstfruits along with Jesus Himself.

I’m done with this it’s not productive.

 

[cv5]

https://www.gty.org/library/resources/sermons-library/scripture/1?book=53&chapter=2

 

[cv5]

It is for me.

I’m done with this it’s not productive.

 

[cv5]

It is for me.

https://www.gty.org/library/resources/sermons-library/scripture/1?book=53&chapter=2

 

[Absolutely]

You guys need to remember that Jesus left(ascended) the same way he will return. He returns with 10000’s of his saints so who do you think captivity was?

He ascended without saints.
In rev 14 he returns with no saints.
As he does in 1 thes 4.
He returns post trib with all his saints
No rapture post trib

 

[Absolutely]

You are agreeing with men that never saw Israel re established.

And don't put words in my mouth. A very nasty habit on this board.

Stop getting nasty.
I do not answer to you or obey you
Take a chill pill. It's only a discussion

 

[KJV1611]

He ascended without saints.
In rev 14 he returns with no saints.
As he does in 1 thes 4.
He returns post trib with all his saints
No rapture post trib

What is this verse talking about then?

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[Absolutely]

Obviously the church fathers saw through a destroyed is rael prism.
To invoke that same prism is rediculous knowing what we know now.
But it would be wise to do a little investigation on the other side.
You will find that the CATHOLICS BURNED those who wrote on the pretrib rapture. Burned their writings also as heresy.

Some survived.
What a pity. Postribs non applicable dominoes fall in chain reaction.
The more research done,the more they
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